Author Topic: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)  (Read 5585 times)

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Offline Siiem

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 06:17:14 pm »
-1
Stop making threads already.

Offline Christo

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2012, 07:33:24 pm »
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2012, 08:44:19 pm »
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Longswords were and are NOT heavier than Katanas.  Some examples might be, and vice versa..but on the whole they all weighed 2.8-3.6 lbs.  Of course there are outliers.

Katanas are better at slicing because of the curved blade.  Longswords were unquestionably better at thrusting due to the highly tapered point....Kind of the way it appears now in game exactly!!!

Yes, Katanas were not as good against metal armor, because they were not designed to emphasize a thrust.  A slash or chop would be less effective against metal armor.  The metal armor that Feudal Japanese soldiers used is much different than the metal armor European soldiers used.  A katana would not be very effective against an opponent clad in a plate suit, but it would deal better against a samarai in metal armor.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 08:49:06 pm by Garison »

Offline Peasant_Woman

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2012, 12:38:33 am »
+5
Honestly, katanas should be semi-ranged weapons. Swing your katana at air, and after a short minigame (focus energy) you emit a windslash
breaking the sound barrier and instantly killing the first enemy it touches
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Offline Renay

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2012, 01:06:39 am »
0
Honestly, katanas should be semi-ranged weapons. Swing your katana at air, and after a short minigame (focus energy) you emit a windslash
breaking the sound barrier and instantly killing the first enemy it touches

agreed
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Offline Casimir

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2012, 03:59:09 am »
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just buff katana damage to 60 cut, add a throwing mode and increase the weapon length by 200 already!
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Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2012, 04:55:29 am »
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(click to show/hide)

Now were all getting in to it. I love realism subsugestion forum, tis the only place other than spam everyone can freely talk utter shit :D That is directed at me, and everyone that isn't having a rage black out as they read this thread, those that allow themselves to be amused by the absurd.

Onto a serious point!

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2012, 06:28:47 am »
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That is a shitty video and its been shot down many times.
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Offline Artyem

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2012, 07:00:14 am »
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6 Ironflesh with chainmail and I during two hours trip to the Rageball server I found that one guy with a Katana one shot me while it took Darth_Maul 2 or 3 to kill me.

Usually I'd rage over the great maul, but it's hard to when the Katana seems to have equal to or greater than damage than it, not to mention the fact it flies through the air at 101 speed backing up its 37 cut.

If anything, the longsword should do more cutting damage than the katana because it weighs more in game, and the Katana should be lowered to 33 - 34 cut, but it should also receive a bonus to its pierce damage.


That's my two cents.

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Offline FRANK_THE_TANK

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2012, 09:25:19 am »
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Its fair point you make. And really I don't want it to get a buff. I'm still pissed that its faster than my Side Sword, my swords a pointy fucking stick, it doesnt' weigh anything! Oh well.

But yes back to the rambling ranting.

No your a doofus bobthewrong, your so wrong. Wronger...
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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2012, 01:56:26 pm »
0
A quick google I made told me the side sword is about 2.5 pounds while katana is 2.5-3.5 pounds. Not that much of a difference.

als. i onse red taht

katnans were yoused by   samurai to  bolck arorws. Tahts why  they,  dint haev,  shilds!!1

Offline Penitent

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2012, 06:45:25 pm »
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Quote
Garison, you said "Longswords were unquestionably better at thrusting" I have a crapy youtube video that begs to differ. Really though these 2 swords are very similar against heavy armour, to the point where it makes no real difference. A katana will blow away the Long Sword in a cutting fight with crap armour but once you step up into scale and plate the 2 weapons platue out and the only real difference at that point to the killing power of either sword is in the hands of context and that is all.

There is a lot of jingoistic white power bullshit around this EU vs Asia sword debate, I've sat on both sides of the fence. Its almost rascist. But its mostly just ignorance.

Who here can put there hand up and say "Here is scientifc trail of both swords vis a vis thier capacity to blow armour into bits/killing power" I sure as hell can't and I doubt anyone else around here can.

I've used both and they both seem perfectly capable of fucking up your day. I got the same results from thrusts and cuts out of both, the only real difference was the Katana kept going through tougher stuff. The long sword dented an old Ford's bonet wish a slash and the Katana left a hole in it, not much of one but it was thier. I'm not sure what to put that down to, I think its the curve droping more force onto a smaller point.

Thank you for your reply!  First, you should know that I am not racist or culturally elitist or whatever.  I really love katanas and all asians.  I married an asian and I love the culture.  I think it is also unfair to mention the bias of "white power" and not mention the overwhelming cultural bias towards katanas, however deserved it may be.  In one of my previous posts (that I can't find) I did in fact lobby for katanas to be buffed to show their true potential and reflect reality.  Once time my friend had a real katana from japan, and he was playing around with it outside, but he tripped.  The katana slipped out of his hands and landed on a car, but unfortunately the blade was facing down and it cut right through the hood, engine block, and even the tire and wheel well before lodging itself 8-inches in to the pavement.  So trust me I know the power of the katana and the legendary cutting abilities it possesses that have been proved time and time again. :)

The longsword, however, was better at thrusting.  Scientific evidence for this is abounding.   Modern "tests" may or may not show this, depending on the item that is being thrust in to, irregularities in the strength or thickness of different areas of the item, irregularities in the posture, power, and other effects on the thrust of the sword wielder, and irregularities in the swords being used (type of metal, sharpness, hardness, etc).  Because of all these areas where possible error can be introduced during an "at home" test, I'm can only reference physics principles and historical examples. :)

For example, consider the smaller suface area of the tip.  The very tip of the tip of both the longsword and katana are the same, but once the sword has pierced 1/2 inch or more in to the armor/flesh/whatrver, the katana's "tanto" point will have a larger surface area and have more resistance going in.  This is science. 

There are other reasons why the Longsword is a better thrusting weapon, in general, although the katana does indeed have a very servicable and lethal thrust.  The longsword is sharpened on both edges, allowing the highly tapered point to pass more easily into (and out of) an object or person.  This further reduces the friction and resistance making the thrust not only easier but also faster.  This is science.  In addition, the flex of a longsword blade (especially in latter examples) is very rigid indeed.  Many blades had risers instead of fullers on them, increasing this rigidness, allowing more of the push energy to be directed into the point.  In addition to the rigidness of the overall blade, the cross-section of the tip of later period longswords morphs into a diamond shape, adding even more rigidity to the end section of the blade, allowing even more energy to be transferred to the tip during a thrust.  Lastly, the Longsword blade is longer, making for a greater reach in thrusting.  These is a scientific facts of physics. :)

Both swords are very good at injuring, maiming, and killing in a variety of ways.  Both swords were designed and evolved over hundreds of years to become the best they were at what they did.  No sword is superior to the other in general...they both represented the epitome of killing technology at their peaks.  Yes, one was created by Europeans and one was created by Japanese...but the human spirit of ingenuity in warfare is pretty much a universal trait.  The Katana can punch through metal.  The Longsword can hack off a limb.  However, I stand by the fact that the longsword was a specially designed instrument made to emphasize the thrust, and that it thrusts more effectively than a katana.  Science stands with me...but more importantly, so does history.  If a katana's "tanto" point was the most effective way to punch through heavy steel armor and kill an enemy, then Eurpoean weapon smiths would have started using this design, and longsword artifacts of the period would look that way as they evolved from the arming swords of the early middle ages.  But, alas, as heavier and thicker armor was used across Europe, weapon designers increasingly tapered and strengthed the tip of the Longsword to counter it, because this is what worked best.  They did not change the blade into a "tanto" point like the katana, though they had the ability to do so.  I hold these truths to be self-evident.

And yes, I am having fun too.  Rage not included. :)

Here is a very nice essay that thoughtfully considers all of the advantages and disadvantages of katana/longsword design, even taking "cultural bias" into account.  It compares cut, thrust, guarding ability, speed, and other technical advantages/disadvantages...all while admitting the shortcomings of such a "study":
http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 07:22:33 pm by Garison »

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 12:36:25 am »
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They were both symbols of authority, a sign of belonging to a warrior elite. Neither weapon was "the best at what they did", unless by what they did you mean cut appart unarmored peasants. Neither were the primary battlefield weapon for the knight or the samurai, respectively.
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 12:48:18 am »
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They were both symbols of authority, a sign of belonging to a warrior elite. Neither weapon was "the best at what they did", unless by what they did you mean cut appart unarmored peasants. Neither were the primary battlefield weapon for the knight or the samurai, respectively.

You are only partially correct (about 25% correct I'd estimate).  :)  Some swords were of ceremonial purposes only, being symbols of authority.  However, the majority of those produced were meant for battle.  The Longsword in particular was efficient for armored and unarmored combat.  See the writings of Fiore dei Liberi, Italian master at arms whose combat manuals (written in the 14th century) are still available today.  It's true that swords were mostly for nobles or the higher classes, but they were indeed meant for fighting in war and personal defense.

Only nobles and higher classes had swords, because they were expensive.  They were expensive because they required the most workmanship and best materials to produce.  They were indeed the best at what they did...man-to-man combat in a variety of different possible combat scenarios.  Polearms were the most common battlefield weapons, but that's not necessarily because they were the best.  They were cheaper and required less training.   A sword was often a knights major go-to weapon..though they were well versed in many.  The lance is one of the best for killing on horseback...but those were usually 1-use only, not the best for all situations or as dependable as the sword.  Nor is it as good as defending as it is attacking.

There is also a story about Muso Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi, legendary Japanese Bo master.  He would often duel Miyamoto Musashi, the well-known sword master who fought with a katana.  Muso could not defeat Musashi with his polearm, no matter how many times he tried.  The katana was the superior weapon.  It wasn't until Muso modified his staff that he was able to gain the upper hand in their fights.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 12:51:13 am by Garison »

Offline Christo

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Re: Katana and long sword/bastard(s)
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 12:50:53 am »
0
It wasn't until Muso modified his staff that he was able to gain the upper hand.

Let me guess, that's how the Naginata was born?

Not really into japanese stuff.  :)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 12:51:59 am by Christo »
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