[NA] Canary_of_Chaos (old)

[Dexxtaa]

I recommend that OssumPossum make a big NA drama thread about it in General Discussion so we can call attention to this decision that Canary is clearly in the right on.

I further suggest that OssumPossum pushes on about how correct he is in the face of overwhelming evidence against his case.

Besides, Christo would have a ball with the thread, too.

[Canary]

I'm just saying that again and again the admin community on crpg seems to be so concerned with doling out justice and enforcing the rules exactly that sometimes they forget to chill out and have fun playing a video game.

So, please Canary, chill out.

The issue you have here is on the forums, which is entirely not playing a video game, but rather a series of discussions about said video game, and is far less fun. I'll "chill out" when people stop breaking the rules.

Anyhow, the reason why I was muting people in that particular thread was because it was one that I was specifically overseeing, as I had issued the original ban. Yes, as you say, it was a controversial topic. It was one that did not need to get any worse by having a mess of random players coming in and editorializing. You weren't calling attention to the controversy, you were exacerbating it. The people starting new threads about it were calling attention to it, and you were welcome to speak up about it there to your heart's content.  I will direct you again to the multiple warnings I gave out to try and keep people from breaking the rules by posting useless discussion in the ban section.

In short, I should have just locked the thread in the first place, since nobody seems interested in paying any mind to the forum decorum.

As for those other requests, people are breaking the rules there, too, yes. It's hard to read the entire forums constantly. If I see a thread locked on the NA ban section, it might be typical for me to presume that another of our admins handled the matter satisfactorily, so I may not end up reading every post in it. There is a report post option, too, that hardly anybody seems to use.


In the end, yes, we're concerned with "doling out justice" and "enforcing the rules", but you know why? Because so few people are evidently interested in paying any attention to them, let alone following them. At least I'm giving you the courtesy of discussing why I enforced whatever rules for whichever reason. I literally do not have to say anything about this matter, or even issue warnings for things people should be expected to know already. What's really "nonsense" (as you dismissed one of my decisions) is how much guff we get for doing what we were assigned to do.

[Smoothrich]

solution:  create a well moderated forum moderator feedback forum to moderate this in.  then ban yourself from it, canary

[Jarlek]

http://forum.meleegaming.com/na-(official)/ban-request-lljk_raxmus-goresaw/msg615211/#msg615211

Are you kidding me? 12 hour ban for griefing like this? What's up with NA admins giving out such pussy bans? Not aimed at you particular, it just surprise me how lenient NA admins are.

When someone have to stop playing to fire up Fraps to get footage of obvious griefing, then take time to upload the movie and everything, it really ought to be more than a measly 12 hours.

[Canary]

And yet, you see how entitled NA players are about getting to play without being interrupted due to something as measly as being punished for breaking the rules. They'll be quick to demand proof of a misdeed they've done, and how quick they are to argue the rules when that fails!

The majority of the rulebreakers on the NA servers have no idea how good they have it. None of them have ever been given a weeklong ban without a kindly explanation behind it, without a lengthy discussion around an unban appeal. They don't have to face being banned for colorful reasons such as "beta testing".

We really do just need to start taking a page from the EU style of tacit administration. Explaining our actions to the players who ought to know better is really not productive.

[Ganner]

I've come to the same conclusion a few months ago canary. I no longer explain mutes if you don't know why I muted you press l and find out. The worst however are the people that want you to explain every admin action even though they are not remotely involved.

I also wish we could stop responding to the ban requests and just handle and lock them.  Responding to them just leads to more shitposting, fights, and Wanabe sheriffs (diggles anders idlemind).

[Jarlek]

And yet, you see how entitled NA players are about getting to play without being interrupted due to something as measly as being punished for breaking the rules. They'll be quick to demand proof of a misdeed they've done, and how quick they are to argue the rules when that fails!

The majority of the rulebreakers on the NA servers have no idea how good they have it. None of them have ever been given a weeklong ban without a kindly explanation behind it, without a lengthy discussion around an unban appeal. They don't have to face being banned for colorful reasons such as "beta testing".

We really do just need to start taking a page from the EU style of tacit administration. Explaining our actions to the players who ought to know better is really not productive.

Yeah, I've seen so many topics about people whining about them being banned "for no reason" only to have the next post give a link with screenshots of 5+ teamkills at spawn. Pretty sad, really. I think the problem is that you NA admins had to take screens or something when you banned someone (IIRC), back on the community servers. Probably led to a lot of people thinking that the admins needed proof for every single ban they did. Kinda sad.

What you could do is make a rule that if people deny something that you can prove, whine about badmining when it's obvious breaking of rules, etc., then you increase the ban length or something. If they claim that they never teamkilled or opened gates as defenders and that admins banned "cause they are chocolate chip cookie/commie/homosexuals", then someone comes with a screenshot showing tk's or a bloody video of them opening the gates. Then you really ought to give them some extra time off for pure lies and wasting of everyones time.

You can also just increase the default ban time. It seems that it's normal to give 6-12 hour bans when someone reports something on the forum. Why not increase that to 24 hours, as it is on EU? Also a big increase for repeated offenders. When you get a ban for teamkilling for the 3rd time, then it seems natural to give them 7+ days.

I've come to the same conclusion a few months ago canary. I no longer explain mutes if you don't know why I muted you press l and find out. The worst however are the people that want you to explain every admin action even though they are not remotely involved.

I also wish we could stop responding to the ban requests and just handle and lock them.  Responding to them just leads to more shitposting, fights, and Wanabe sheriffs (diggles anders idlemind).

Bolded part: I've read most of them and they are utterly retarded. While asking for an explanation is good and all, it seems that a lot of people don't know when to shut up.

[genric]

   Regarding bans I have to say EU is incredibly strict on these kinds of things(3 day for first, and 7 for second) which in view of NA is good and bad. Small bans are good for small things or if there is just enough evidence then give them a 6 or 12 but I have to agree if they are being recorded doing it for multiple rounds and/or multiple maps then they need to be punished harshly. It will completely ruin a good day of playing when people are purposefully messing up the game like that.

   I don't think NA admins should be more cruel when it isn't needed, or not give explanations (because most people should respect you admins for giving these clear reasons to your every action. People will shit post and come at you and be angry but don't change who you are just because they treat you like that because most of the community respects you), but if people are being hurtful to the community for an extended time with ample evidence they need to receive a harsh punishment.

(Canary, Ganner, and NA adminship nothing against any of you as you can read this you guys do your jobs and I love it. Just saying)

[Tears of Destiny]

I am fairly curious on what caused the NA Admins to shift away from one-or-three day bans as the norm, and start giving out so many hour-long bans, most of which are short enough that the recipient won't even notice that there was a ban when the next log-in is performed. It was not always like this.

[Spanish]

Give us all the Saudi Arabia oil and ban lengths may substantially increase...

[Digglez]

I am fairly curious on what caused the NA Admins to shift away from one-or-three day bans as the norm, and start giving out so many hour-long bans, most of which are short enough that the recipient won't even notice that there was a ban when the next log-in is performed. It was not always like this.

because they're worried about their PR/image, not the community.  giving someone less than a 24h ban for INTENTIONAL GRIEFING (for the sole purpose of being malicious/lulz) over 40 players on siege, really?  get a fucking spine man or give admin to someone that will actually do something worthwhile, like week-month bans for intentional VIDEO documented griefing.

[Jarlek]

   Regarding bans I have to say EU is incredibly strict on these kinds of things(3 day for first, and 7 for second) which in view of NA is good and bad. Small bans are good for small things or if there is just enough evidence then give them a 6 or 12 but I have to agree if they are being recorded doing it for multiple rounds and/or multiple maps then they need to be punished harshly. It will completely ruin a good day of playing when people are purposefully messing up the game like that.

   I don't think NA admins should be more cruel when it isn't needed, or not give explanations (because most people should respect you admins for giving these clear reasons to your every action. People will shit post and come at you and be angry but don't change who you are just because they treat you like that because most of the community respects you), but if people are being hurtful to the community for an extended time with ample evidence they need to receive a harsh punishment.

(Canary, Ganner, and NA adminship nothing against any of you as you can read this you guys do your jobs and I love it. Just saying)

EU admins aren't that strict actually. If it's something they see themselves in-game, then it's usually an hour ban. It's when people have to take screens and post it on the forum that they give day-bans. Rarely have I seen bans for more than 1 day given out in-game.

[Ganner]

Personally my policy has always been 24 hour bans + 1 day for each previous ban if someone takes the time to report it here. Actions witnessed ig are usually shorter because the effect of getting banned while you are playing gets the point across.

[Canary]

I think the problem is that you NA admins had to take screens or something when you banned someone (IIRC), back on the community servers. Probably led to a lot of people thinking that the admins needed proof for every single ban they did. Kinda sad.

That wasn't how things were done, at least not from what I witnessed back then (and I was eventually an admin on Community). If anything, some of the reason for NA admins being more lenient is because of the absolute literal abuse some of the Community admins used to deal out. The amount of bans issued for conversation was ridiculous (remember the old "don't talk to the admins! You'll get banned!" rule of thumb? It was for real). I mean, it was an admin team who developed a script to permban everyone based on their clan tags just because they disliked that one group of people. I guess we're still trying to move away from that approach. I, for one, would rather err with caution and give more people the benefit of the doubt than make the game shitty and unplayable because of a heavy-handed lack of caring.

I am fairly curious on what caused the NA Admins to shift away from one-or-three day bans as the norm, and start giving out so many hour-long bans, most of which are short enough that the recipient won't even notice that there was a ban when the next log-in is performed. It was not always like this.

You can also just increase the default ban time. It seems that it's normal to give 6-12 hour bans when someone reports something on the forum. Why not increase that to 24 hours, as it is on EU? Also a big increase for repeated offenders. When you get a ban for teamkilling for the 3rd time, then it seems natural to give them 7+ days.

I'm not sure what other folks' reasoning is behind it, but I try to make sure that if I'm not giving a 24 hour ban for what-have-you, it'll be one that occurs during a time when the subject would normally be playing, such as when a report is made the same night for something I was around for but didn't personally witness.

I feel like there is a bit of a problem in some cases where something that got reported might not be worth a whole 24-hour ban if we'd witnessed it in the act, but due to the way we have to handle forum ban requests there's not a good way to punish the person involved without going beyond what we might have done otherwise. Maybe we ought to just ban high and pay closer attention to ban requests for situations that leave a bit of doubt as to the extent of the punishment.

There's another thing we could do better. It seems like lots of times past bans aren't checked or considered until after a ban is issued. It's a matter of putting forth extra effort not just to notice that but also to proceed with updated punishments if there's something that was missed before, but it doesn't always happen.

because they're worried about their PR/image, not the community.  giving someone less than a 24h ban for INTENTIONAL GRIEFING (for the sole purpose of being malicious/lulz) over 40 players on siege, really?  get a fucking spine man or give admin to someone that will actually do something worthwhile, like week-month bans for intentional VIDEO documented griefing.

Which is why I still have this thread which starts out with a complaint against me made by some random person. Digglez here honestly sounds just as bad as the rulebreakers who try to argue their sentencing ("24 hours just for hitting one guy, really? Should be like 8 hours max") on equally arbitrary terms.

The people causing problems got removed from the server during the night that they were creating a bad environment in the game. When more evidence of rulebreaking was provided, the time until they could come back got increased until the next day. If they do the same thing again (or anything else bad, for that matter), they'll get a much more severe punishment. I could explain why they didn't get banned for longer already in this particular case, but then I think I'd just be too concerned with my public image.

If I were truly not worried about the community I wouldn't have listened to both sides of the story.

[Rumblood]

NA Admins aren't slaves to the letter of the rules. We take each situation and individual involved on an individual basis and render a just punishment as each situation calls for. We are not robots, we are human beings capable of making complex decisions, and as Admins we exercise that ability. This will include customizing the ban length to enough to get our point across without being excessive, while still permitting as much freedom of expression from our player base as possible.