Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.

[Remy]

Slowing down while shooting is more a taunting act, its not something we necessarily need to do

I know right!

I for some silly reason find it hilarious to do slow loops with the steppe horse or try to do a 360° turn before firing an arrow. 

Then shoot as the enemy cavalry attempt a full speed charge at my poor self.

Anyway, as to the points:
1.It is painful how long it takes to actually become consistent with horse archery. I've barely played my horse archer for the past 4 months and it tells. But as to the killing good armour, it takes a fuck load of arrows yes, but honestly when I get high scores as horse archery, it's because my focus isn't on getting kills until the later portions of a round. At first I concentrate on enemy cavalry, once they are out of the way (if I survive) I focus on infantry. Most of my kills come on either lightly armoured inf/archers, or heavier inf that is already damaged. It's rare that I'll get in a fight with someone who hasn't already lost a lot of health, so the kills aren't to hard.

2. This is true. I stopped playing with bodkins a long time ago and use barbs. This is the main reason. When I used bodkins after the price changes and the the break ability changes I lost 20k gold in 4 hours due to repairs. As soon as I switched to barbs my money remained steady.

3. Again true. If these archery nerfs come into place then it'll effect HA quite heavily, more so than foot archers who can shoot more accurately. However, this also has to be carefully balanced. I really don't want to see a return to the huge thread calling for the nerf of HA that led to the original nerf. So maybe it could be possible to increase the effectiveness of HA by a smaller increment at first and then see how it goes.

I agree with all these points.

1. To be honest I find the hardest thing with aiming the hitboxes, it feels like every round it takes one or two shots to notice roughly how much one has to compensate when aiming. Targets are of course always enemy cavalry and then any targets of opportunity(wounded, busy, etc).

2. As a mere 2nd Generation player I have only enough money for a horse(usually steppe), basic nomad gear, sometimes tartar arrows and my once loomed bow. It is not as if I am always playing with a x1 either... 

3. I also have to agree with your final point, it would be perhaps better to try any changes in increments. I am quite happy with the way HA is now, as we fill a nice support role engaging enemy cavalry and disrupting the enemy formation/tactics at the cost of individual damage and accuracy. That being said depending on how it actually plays out if ranged damage is nerfed again, it might be logical to have a small increase in accuracy(HA).


In summary I think Cris raises an interesting and fair point.

[_Tak_]

Although i am not a horse archer but according to mongolian archer's skill against the european knights i would agree with this statement. +1

[Vibe]

How about no

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

I know right!

I for some silly reason find it hilarious to do slow loops with the steppe horse or try to do a 360° turn before firing an arrow. 

Then shoot as the enemy cavalry attempt a full speed charge at my poor self.

I mean why do they think almost all of us use high manoeuvre horses? (and yes I count as ha )

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

pretty wrong than

Remy, Hentzi, Elmer, Saffran, Buba, Spjut, Fru with you it would be 8 but than again i cant say as i didnt saw you play lately

you missed toc, kalanie, surhay, (shish?)

and me you missed me

[Overdriven]

The problem is, that a horse archer is in a lot of aspects similar to a roofcamping archer, with the only difference of being mobile while roofcamping.

Because a horse is the same as an indestructible building  The other important difference is the horse can be killed. It's all very well and good being mobile, but if your accuracy and damage out put isn't all that great then it's hardly much of a benefit. And it's not our fault if archers are to stupid to aim for our horses.

Regardless, like I said, this change should be considered if those other range changes come in, otherwise I do think there's no need.

[Remy]

(and yes I count as ha )

You are the red headed step child of the HA family. I suspect Hentzi is your father...

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

You are the red headed step child of the HA family. I suspect Hentzi is your father...

We should take this to Jeremy Kyle!

The problem is, that a horse archer is in a lot of aspects similar to a roofcamping archer, with the only difference of being mobile while roofcamping.

- ha cant use war bows / longbows / heavy xbows / arbalests making their damage output significantly weaker e.g to a war bow 2 body shots kill my champion arabian, to a mw horn bow it takes 4 shots give or take 1
- a horse is easily shot down, a building is not
- a horse does not equal cover, with a good bit of aiming you can hit the ha at all times, roof campers have large amounts of cover from the building (stepping back from the edge)
- a horse archer is far less accurate than a stationary roof camper
- horse archers (bar overdriven) rarely use coursers and can be prey to fast lancers
- horse archers have no height advantage on shielders, a good shielder can block fire from ha indefinately (ha bumps are very risky)

I think thats a good start ;)

[Joker86]

- ha cant use war bows / longbows / heavy xbows / arbalests making their damage output significantly weaker e.g to a war bow 2 body shots kill my champion arabian, to a mw horn bow it takes 4 shots give or take 1
- a horse is easily shot down, a building is not
- a horse does not equal cover, with a good bit of aiming you can hit the ha at all times, roof campers have large amounts of cover from the building (stepping back from the edge)
- a horse archer is far less accurate than a stationary roof camper
- horse archers (bar overdriven) rarely use coursers and can be prey to fast lancers
- horse archers have no height advantage on shielders, a good shielder can block fire from ha indefinately (ha bumps are very risky)

I think thats a good start ;)

I said similar, not equal to roof campers. And I meant it concerning infantry. A roofcamper and a horse archer are both enemies you can do literally nothing about. With the difference that the horse archer can follow you everywhere.

If you are ranged, things change of course, but for at least one third of the players a horse archer is literally unkillable, unless he makes some mistake.

And I would like to see the horse archer who gets followed by a light lancer (and knows this) and falls to him, before being able to shoot his horse dead.

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

And I would like to see the horse archer who gets followed by a light lancer (and knows this) and falls to him, before being able to shoot his horse dead.

see Chagan for this one bastard somehow gets into their slipstream or some withcraft

[Miwiw]

If you are ranged, things change of course, but for at least one third of the players a horse archer is literally unkillable, unless he makes some mistake.

Solutions:
- stick with the group
- use javelins
- use a shield
- try to dodge the arrows (is possible but well you will get annoyed of it easily)
- seek cover

if you are however on an open plain without any cover, you are lost and that is okay because then not the HA is the reason you die but the map.
I also find it hilarious that people whine about archers and shielders. A shield is a normal item to use in native, with a reason. Everyone has a shield there, even most archers. Sure, they have those stats by default but you could also put some points in shield skill if you want to. Javelins are nice to take down light horses or their light armored riders, surely youll also need skill points here.
But however, the people who choose to be pure 2handed sword users or polearms did it with a reason, and should face the fact that ranged builds have advantages over them. Once they however wasted all their arrows, the 2handed sword user/polearms are better than those, unless the archers are skilled enough in melee.
It is all about balance, and the HA is pretty much balanced imo. However when archery gets nerfed, HA needs a buff.
There are also not that many HAs as infantry in most teams. Usually matches (rounds) are decided by infantry anyway. Sometimes by archers.

[Joker86]

Solutions:
- stick with the group
- use javelins
- use a shield
- try to dodge the arrows (is possible but well you will get annoyed of it easily)
- seek cover

Does a horse archer have to rely that much on other players or equipment that doesn't typically belong to his class to be able to fight against a certain other class, or at least to not be completely defenseless?

It is simply unfair that some classes have to use more items than others to deal with the same percentage of enemies. Cavalry? Use a pike. Archers? Use a shield. Roofcampers? Use a ladder. Nice to see I have no slots left for actually playing my class.

if you are however on an open plain without any cover, you are lost and that is okay because then not the HA is the reason you die but the map.

That's not totally correct, because with other classes I have other results. Which means the fact that the horse archer is a horse archer matters very well.

Still, everything in my previous big posting is valid. Horse archers are by far the most versatile class, with the best chances of survival and yet not being limited in their choice of targets. I mean: which class is as good against horse archers as horse archers are against infantry? Answer: none. The only way to balance this is to nerf HA's down to the effectivity level of mosquitos, all they should be able to do is to sting people a bit and kill horses. Because everything else would be unbalanced.

[Remy]

I mean: which class is as good against horse archers as horse archers are against infantry?

Ranged infantry easily counter HA, they can hit more accurately and with more damage. Even if they are a poor shot they can probably kill a horse faster than they can be killed or suppressed.

I disagree as well with your definition of good, if good is ability to harass and disrupt then yes HA is probably one of the best classes. If it is about killing then definitely not, in that case I would be far more inclined to choose lancer, 2H or even polearm.

Also this is simply not true:

yet not being limited in their choice of targets.

Anyone with a shield, good armor or ranged(due to their ability to easily dehorse all cavalry) is limited as a potential target...

Arguably even infantry that are aware of you are sometimes useless targets, if someone starts doing the "arrow dance" it often becomes a waste of time and arrows to engage.

[Joker86]

Shielder infantry are essentially invulnerable to an HA, unless you decide to spend two or three minutes trying to take one down.
Ranged, archers and even xbowman are extremely dangerous, if they can somewhat aim they will dehorse or kill you before you can really get a bead on them. They can hit more accurately and with far more damage.

You can't harm shielders, but they also can't harm you. And it's not like your mobility and your ability to fight over distance don't allow you to engage the shielder at any later moment, when he is not blocking towards your direction.

And the point about all the ranged fighters still applies for all the other classes, too. Everyone, except of shielders perhaps, can easily be killed by ranged fighters.

I want horse archers to tell me a class, if they meet it at the end of the round alone, letting them no chance of survival, let alone winning this fight.

And I want horse archers to list me up the equipment they need besides the basic horse archer stuff to not be defenseless against other classes, or even to be able to deal with them.

Anyone with a shield, good armor or ranged(due to their ability to easily dehorse all cavalry) is limited as a potential target...

Okay, I give you that, but still it's not comparable like a shieldman trying to engage a HA. Whereas the horse archer will do only little damage to the armoured opponent, the one handed shieldman has literally no chance of inflicting a single point damage.

[Arrowblood]

everyone who crys about HAs in this days is a big fat useless idiot.