Author Topic: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.  (Read 3885 times)

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Offline Cris

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+5
Hopefully this will get some Dev attention

Please read the whole post before posting.

Please note: Before raging because you already hate HAs, make a Skip the fun HA and shoot at "speed", try to aim and actually be good at it, then get your friend with good armor and see how many arrows it takes you to kill him.
After that join a Battle server for a few hours with a decent set of arrows, bow and horse look at that gold drop so fast that unless you have constant X5 its impossible to have a good horse, bodkins and bow and make a profit. (I run barbed arrows most of the time nowadays, and still lose money)

Then you will understand if this proposal would create an inbance.

Also, in case you doubt my experience with Horse Archery, Ive been one since the early early days :-P | It is also worth noticing that I do agree with nerf we got after the level restructure, and thats comming from the first Horse Archer on Plate armor in the old days :)


Proposal:

Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20%

Why? Well, any attempt to balance archery (nerfs), by default affects (nerfs) the already lower in damage Horse Archery class.
So HAs do a lot less damage than foot archers and have huge reticules at speed.

But you say "Hey, but HAs, including you already land a lot of shots" Yes, some do, some of us have played tons of hours and all our hard work has paid off :-P Practice practice practice. But, in many cases most HA slow down or stop before shooting, so the speed penalty does not apply in the same way, if at all, so boosting HA point benefits by 20% would not affect those shots.

Now, why 20%? Well, 20% would allow to have what in my experience is good accuracy for dedicated build at speed (No spare points at all) - Please note, by good accuracy I do not mean footarcher accuracy, what I mean it is not even close to that reticule.

I've have had HA up to 6 in my time, that with light/medium armour and an old courser along with 230+ wpp meant almost no penalty at speed (courser was 50 speed)

Increase HA penalty decrease by 20% would mean the average build with (4 HA points) would have the equivalent of 4.8HA now, so not as good as 5HA.

All of this would allow the following results to be possible, results that should be possible for any dedicated class on their own area:

-To allow the balanced build (HA4 PD5) to eliminate some of the randomness of the shots at high speed, whislt damage is still very low compared to foot archers.

-To allow those who want to almost completly eleminate the effect of speed penalty (HA5 and PD4/3) to be able to do so --> this builds does no damage and would have to rely on headshots to be effective, so not over powered, as with PD5 we already dont 1 shot people with heave helments.

Please note - Horse Archers do not benefit from their own speed for damage (No speed bonus, like melee cav or even infantery!). Hence, being able to shoot more acurately at higher speeds does not mean more damage. And with 20% increase, at mid and long range it means most people will still not hit you

Also, to those who would say "make HA every 3 agility points instead" -- It would be a good idea for Horse archers, it would mean trading some riding, PD or WM poitns for accuracy, reducing the damage. BUT, HA points are also used by mounted throwers and mounted crossbowmen. Mounted crossbowmen already do great pirce damage and can hold their aim as long as they want (they also do not need PD), hence HA every 3 agility points would allow them to take away the penalty and still have points for other thigns, thus making them an unbalanced class.

Please contructive comments.

If you hate Horse archery and will not post from a neutral point of view refrain from posting/trolling.

And remember, every archer neft hurts us more, and we already take 20 arrows to kill you in your nice and shiny armor :)

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Offline Elmokki

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 12:56:57 am »
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If the next patch headshots-are-more-essential thing goes through I suppose this might very well make sense.

Offline Ujin

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 12:59:58 am »
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So , with your suggestion being implemented, how many shots will it take for 5 gk HA to kill my champ. destrier,  ~ ? Just asking.

Offline Cris

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 01:05:15 am »
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Same amounts of shots i think, it shouldn't make much difference to the damage, and horses are already super easy to shoot if you want to kill them, so it shouldn't make not real difference.

If they are good enough to hit the head each time it would be a bit easier to kill you horse, but if thats the case, I would rather just shoot your head and get your nice horse after someone kills mine :-P

A lot of GK already slow down a lot before they shoot other horses, specially if turning, so it wouldnt affect much that way.
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Offline Zerran

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 01:23:16 am »
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The problem here is that very, VERY few people actually want HA to be balanced. Bow HA I agree could use this kind of buff, but xbow HA can actually be pretty deadly as is, and this would benefit them too. IMO we need a buff for bow HA only, so unless this can be done I say keep it like it is now.
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Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 01:30:32 am »
0
Slowing down while shooting is more a taunting act, its not something we necessarily need to do :P

We just want you to think you can catch us ;)

Also love the fact horse throwers are mentioned along with horse xbow's but somehow the horse thrower gets overshadowed by horse xbowers :P Way to put my misunderstood class down :( (seriously there is like 3 of us on Eu servers and 2 of them I havnt seen in months)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 01:32:38 am by Lorenzo_of_Iberia »
Your local Jav Cav

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Offline Zerran

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 01:47:34 am »
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Slowing down while shooting is more a taunting act, its not something we necessarily need to do :P

We just want you to think you can catch us ;)

Also love the fact horse throwers are mentioned along with horse xbow's but somehow the horse thrower gets overshadowed by horse xbowers :P Way to put my misunderstood class down :( (seriously there is like 3 of us on Eu servers and 2 of them I havnt seen in months)

Lol I apologize, had completely forgotten about throwing HA... NERF THROWING HA!!!  :P
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 02:02:18 am »
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So , with your suggestion being implemented, how many shots will it take for 5 gk HA to kill my champ. destrier,  ~ ? Just asking.

5 GK HA? We don't even have 5 any more  :(

Besides, a big arse target like a horse is pretty impossible to miss unless the cav is weaving all over the place.

Anyway, as to the points:
1.
Quote
try to aim and actually be good at it, then get your friend with good armor and see how many arrows it takes you to kill him.
It is painful how long it takes to actually become consistent with horse archery. I've barely played my horse archer for the past 4 months and it tells. But as to the killing good armour, it takes a fuck load of arrows yes, but honestly when I get high scores as horse archery, it's because my focus isn't on getting kills until the later portions of a round. At first I concentrate on enemy cavalry, once they are out of the way (if I survive) I focus on infantry. Most of my kills come on either lightly armoured inf/archers, or heavier inf that is already damaged. It's rare that I'll get in a fight with someone who hasn't already lost a lot of health, so the kills aren't to hard.

2.
Quote
After that join a Battle server for a few hours with a decent set of arrows, bow and horse look at that gold drop so fast that unless you have constant X5 its impossible to have a good horse, bodkins and bow and make a profit.
This is true. I stopped playing with bodkins a long time ago and use barbs. This is the main reason. When I used bodkins after the price changes and the the break ability changes I lost 20k gold in 4 hours due to repairs. As soon as I switched to barbs my money remained steady.

3.
Quote
Why? Well, any attempt to balance archery (nerfs), by default affects (nerfs) the already lower in damage Horse Archery class.
So HAs do a lot less damage than foot archers and have huge reticules at speed.

But, in many cases most HA slow down or stop before shooting, so the speed penalty does not apply in the same way, if at all, so boosting HA point benefits by 20% would not affect those shots.

Again true. If these archery nerfs come into place then it'll effect HA quite heavily, more so than foot archers who can shoot more accurately. However, this also has to be carefully balanced. I really don't want to see a return to the huge thread calling for the nerf of HA that led to the original nerf. So maybe it could be possible to increase the effectiveness of HA by a smaller increment at first and then see how it goes.

I hate HA who slow and stop to shoot. The only time I do that is if I'm shooting at roof campers and want to get a careful shot, or if, I'm shooting into melee and really don't want to risk my own team getting pissed off at me so I want to take a careful shot. But both of those situations usually only occur right at the end of a round. Otherwise you may as well get off the damn horse. In my experience the HA who slow to stop are also the ones who die fastest because they aren't used to fighting at higher speeds. Certainly if 2 HA get into a fight against each other, the one who slows to shoot will be the one who dies. The one who is used to manoeuvring and shooting at speed will win (with the exception of this one guy a few months ago who always played on EU at 3am GMT...he had perfected the slowing to shoot thing and was stupidly frustrating).

I'm apprehensive to any changes these days. I'm tired of having to readjust and relearn because of some nerfs. But we will see what happens with archery and then I can make a better call. As of now I see no real need for this. I'm happy with HA.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 02:07:40 am by Overdriven »

Offline Chagan_Arslan

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2012, 02:10:46 am »
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5 GK HA? We don't even have 5 any more  :(

you sure about that ?

Offline Overdriven

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 02:11:53 am »
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you sure about that ?

Pretty sure...certainly not regular players  :P And half of our HA switched to lancers or 1h for a while.

Offline Chagan_Arslan

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2012, 02:14:54 am »
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Pretty sure...certainly not regular players  :P

pretty wrong than

Remy, Hentzi, Elmer, Saffran, Buba, Spjut, Fru with you it would be 8 but than again i cant say as i didnt saw you play lately :P

Offline Overdriven

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2012, 02:17:05 am »
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pretty wrong than

Remy, Hentzi, Elmer, Saffran, Buba, Spjut, Fru with you it would be 8 but than again i cant say as i didnt saw you play lately :P

Not to mention Kerrigan's recent try at HA  :P

Offline Tomas

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2012, 02:20:33 am »
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Bit off topic but horse xbows should be removed from the game. 

They are unrealistic, overpowered and make it almost impossible to balance HAs, since any change to HA is a change to HXbow.


Offline Joker86

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2012, 02:29:48 am »
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The problem is, that a horse archer is in a lot of aspects similar to a roofcamping archer, with the only difference of being mobile while roofcamping.

You know, all those arguments against roofcamping (unfair immunity to 66% of all players, etc.) apply for horse archers by default, as it's the idea of this class. In fact the combination of high mobility with the ability to engage over distance makes them a really strong class, and history showed that indeed it was one of the most successful military concepts of all times (according to the time they were used, of course).

In my eyes your immunity to melee combined with the ability of an archer to engage whoever you can see (instead of having to approach him) doesn't allow you to have the same amount of kills like other classes. You can be a support class at the most, like pikemen and hoplites.

This is why I am against any buff for horse archers. After the big fight of a round is over, you have to put yourself into the point of view of a shieldless infantryman, who is on the search of surviving enemies (and teammates). He has to move, and he has to look everywhere. If he gets caught on the open field by a horse archer (and horse archer survive almost ALWAYS, it's part of their nature), there is nothing more frustrating than this. It is the only class constellation where one player has literally no chance against another player. Full stone-siccors-paper-system, without the horse archer having a similar foe. There is not a single other class, that can be so frustrating for another certain class like horse archers.

Also medium and light cavalry is easy prey for horse archers, and heavy cavalry is at least harmless, althogh there is no real point in attacking it. Infantry is, as we already stated, absolutely inable to do you any harm, only the shieldmen are capable of protecting themselves a bit of your attacks. (I mean, think about this: a certain sub class is AT LEAST CAPABLE TO PROTECT ITSELF!). Crossbowmen are also no match if they missed their first shot, and throwers don't have the range to really harm you. The only real enemy to you are archers, and there are the chances about equal, as archers have the greater precision, but you are moving faster and don't need to stop for your shot.

With all these facts (correct me if I am wrong somewhere. The only thing I could discuss is that archers are no equal, but a little bit superior in a duel, but actually I don't think so. Especially as you can ride away and come back later, when he has changed his target long time ago) there is no other solution than to have HA have the least kills of all.

In my eyes horse archers should be treated very similarly to pikemen: a support class, meant to kill horses and support melee fighters. With the difference that a HA is more versatile than a pikeman and can survive 1 on 1 duels much better. The main task of horse archers should be killing the unarmoured enemy horses, and then harassing the enemy, be it reloading crossbowmen, distracted archers or (CAREFULLY!) supporting the infantry in melee by hitstunning their opponents. The class is not made for making real frags, I mean not even archers are, any more.

It is simply the price you have to pay for playing the most "efficient" class possible. Same as pikemen who really try to fend off cavalry, you won't (shouldn't) have a good K/D that shows your value for the team.

That's why I am against any buff for HA's. The risks they have to take are in no relation to the damage they can do, that's enough of a buff for that class.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 11:08:04 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: Increase benefit of each Horse Archery point by 20% - Please read.
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2012, 03:34:33 am »
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I played a HA with my first character in crpg. With 2 points in HA I was alright with hitting very often. I played my second HA character some months ago. I was still fine with 2 HA until lvl 30. Now I start playing my third HA (I am lvl 29 now and only have 2 points in riding, none in HA!) and still I notice aiming is quite nice. Sure, my horse sucks and my aim and damage could be much higher. But for the next gen I'll go HA directly at the beginning and a 100%. For now I am a 21/15 archer with 2 riding skill. Not that good. ;)
In comparison to other builds, the HA would need a buff. But seeing what Joker says, it shouldnt be buffed and he is actually right to say that the HA is more meant as support class. The Khergits in native might only have HA and Lancers and their strenght are obviously the HA, because in native the stats are much more higher so it is very easy to hit there (its like being a quite high skilled foot archer in crpg, just on horse). And they are there (in native) forbidden in most clan matches for a reason. I am happy there are HAs in crpg. Though of course I always hate getting killed/attacked by one in crpg, however I like them. Surely more than those xbow cavs... :P
But however, if archery gets nerfed, the HA will suffer from it, and should get a little buff if possible. Sadly the xbow cav would get buffed by that as well.

I am wondering if it was possible to split the Horse Archery skill points from xbow ones, to make two different stats of those. I dont know if it possible to do that, but if it was it could be worth a try I guess.
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