Oh my!

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

They should bring back ladderpulting. That way you can A team your way onto the building or ladderpult everyone off it

[bredeus]

finally archers will be forced to cooperate with melee class to stay alive

[Tomas_of_Miles]

Ok. Let's start whining about horses next. All those flat maps can (after patch) sweep all archers and infantry easily.

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[bredeus]

let them come
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[Sawbone]

oh sweet

Many thanks for this improvement - keep up the good work! Range has lost none of its efficiency, but has now become much more challenging to play I believe. Battlefield awareness is now required on every map.

[CrazyCracka420]

The dev's idea of balance is making it so that any class can have an equal shot at a 1v1 with any other class.  That's not balance, it's insanity. 

I just wish instead of nerfing classes natural strengths, they would tell the cry babies to suck it up and learn how to counter it with tactics.

You're entirely right in saying that it makes perfect sense for archers to do it, and that there are potential counters to it including, but not necessarily limited to, using the same tactic yourself.

However, none of these things means that the phenomenon of roof camping doesn't detract from fun gameplay, let alone that enabling this tactic actually adds a worthwhile element to the game.

I also find it hard to understand why your response to the change would be so passionate if you really didn't care about it personally.

My passion really has nothing to do with the ladders, and is probably more suited towards other actual nerfs.  Removing a piece of equipment isn't necessarily a nerf to ranged.  I honestly never use ladders, I'm almost 100% on a horse, and when I'm on foot I never climb up a ladder.  I also don't particularly think teammates on a roof are helping people as much as they could be on foot next to a spearman or sword and boarder.  So if I had to say I'm probably more favorable towards removing the ladder personally.

But I'm able to put my personal feelings aside and realize that this is a bigger picture debate.  It always seems like when enough people cry about something being OP or unbalanced then the devs decide to nerf something (again, nothing in the game is OP or unbalanced because at minimum you can counter with the same class or playstyle).  And then it always has unintended consequences.  You nerf pikes and long spears, and then people start bitching there's too much cavalry.  You make arrows go from pierce to cut, and then you wonder why everyone's running around in tin cans.  I mean seriously...I really don't think anything in the game was ever so overpowered that it required a nerf.  You could argue that in native Khergits are overpowered on open field battles (not sieges), but you can't in c-rpg, because you can counter them by going horse archer (or horse lancer) yourself.  Not to mention you can pull out a pike wall and have your own archers in the middle. 

The tactics for countering a classes natural strengths are only limited to your imagination and teamwork.  For me, I'm so passionate about this ladder issue really has nothing to do with ladders, but the overall movement of C-RPG and how it's nerf nerf nerf until everyone is able to 1v1 each other and have an equal chance.  I'm sorry, but a group of archers can and should get destroyed by a group of cavalry.  A group of pikemen should be able to stop a group of cavalry.  A group of archers should destroy a group of 2h's standing in the open field. 

Seriously, nobodies ever read or watched the book/movie Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut? 

Funny thing is, right now you are the whiney bitch.

And I know I already responded to this, but I thought about it more and it's actually more in depth than that.  My stance is that you shouldn't listen to people whining, and leave the game alone (how many years has c-rpg been around, you'd think that you'd have this "class balance" thing figured out, or you think you'd realize that every class has strengths and weaknesses, and every class has a natural counter-measure to defend against it.)

Basically I'm whining that you shouldn't listen to people whining.  Just because someone shouts the loudest, doesn't make them right.  It'd also be nice to hear your opinion on how every time you end up nerfing something, it "breaks" something else and causes another perceived  imbalance. 

[Renay]

NO! NOT THE LADDERS! 

[Kafein]

Why didn't they listened to me 


Instead of removing ladders, I suggested many times to add a similar feature for other classes. My idea was the ability to dig down caves for infantry, allowing them to somehow attack people on the ground and be immune to ranged and cav even while attacking. And the ability for cav to become invisible (actually it was to fly, but that isn't enough against ranged), that would acheive the same thing as ladders and the game would be balanced.

Only if those two features were implemented, then the 3 main classes would be on an even ground, each one having the ability to attack the two others while being immune to them (without the need of the other classes of your team to protect you, exactly like roofs).

But I'm happy with the ladders gone too.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

Just one more nail in the face

At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square.

GO FUCK YOURSELVES

[SilentJoe]

Brilliant ideas Kafein. Also increase two handed weapons and polearms length drastically and make them pass through friendly troops and damage only enemies!

 

[Kafein]

Brilliant ideas Kafein. Also increase two handed weapons and polearms length drastically and make them pass through friendly troops and damage only enemies!

 

Well my suggestions were only logical.

You could argue that in native Khergits are overpowered on open field battles (not sieges), but you can't in c-rpg, because you can counter them by going horse archer (or horse lancer) yourself.

Of course, let's then apply this to everything. Imagine there's a new weapon that allows you to kill the entire enemy team instantly, from your spawn, without moving and only by holding one button. That's not overpowered at all, since you can use it yourself .

If this is your definition of overpowered, then nothing is overpowered. No matter what it is. Therefore the word doesn't mean anything.

The point of balance is that the game shouldn't be dominated by any particular choice, not that there exists at least one option that counters a particular choice, especially when you can include that choice itself in the countering options.

[CrazyCracka420]

Well my suggestions were only logical.

Of course, let's then apply this to everything. Imagine there's a new weapon that allows you to kill the entire enemy team instantly, from your spawn, without moving and only by holding one button. That's not overpowered at all, since you can use it yourself .

If this is your definition of overpowered, then nothing is overpowered. No matter what it is. Therefore the word doesn't mean anything.

The point of balance is that the game shouldn't be dominated by any particular choice, not that there exists at least one option that counters a particular choice, especially when you can include that choice itself in the countering options.

Ok so throw that out then.  Every class can be countered by another class.  Like I've been trying to say (but apparently failing at conveying): I don't think the answer to balance is to nerf things, I think it's up to the teams and players to find out the natural weakness/es of a class and exploit it.  Not cry on the forums that they keep dying to ranged, or 2h, or cav, or whatever.

And I gave the definition that I did because like you paraphrased my argument: nothing is overpowered, ever because it can be countered by the same class (and every class and play style also has another class or play style that can counter it).  But as a general rule of thumb, every class can counter that same class.

Why didn't they listened to me 


Instead of removing ladders, I suggested many times to add a similar feature for other classes. My idea was the ability to dig down caves for infantry, allowing them to somehow attack people on the ground and be immune to ranged and cav even while attacking. And the ability for cav to become invisible (actually it was to fly, but that isn't enough against ranged), that would acheive the same thing as ladders and the game would be balanced.

Only if those two features were implemented, then the 3 main classes would be on an even ground, each one having the ability to attack the two others while being immune to them (without the need of the other classes of your team to protect you, exactly like roofs).

But I'm happy with the ladders gone too.

Every class shouldn't be able to 1v1 every other class.   An archer should be weak in melee vs infantry and cavalry, but strong when at a distance.  Cav should be strong against archers and short wielding melee weapons, they should be weak if a group of archers is lining up on them, and they should be weak vs pikemen.  2h's should have the advantage over a support class like sword/board or hoplites, but they should be weak to archers and cavalry. 

But instead everyone thinks that the fix to "balance" means that every class should be able to have an equal chance in a 1v1 versus every other class.  It really is a retarded progression.

[Vodner]

Every class shouldn't be able to 1v1 every other class

Yes, they absolutely should. A good player of any class should never, ever die in a 1v1 confrontation because of some rock paper scissors nonsense. A 1v1 confrontation should be decided solely by skill.

[Overdriven]

Yes, they absolutely should. A good player of any class should never, ever die in a 1v1 confrontation because of some rock paper scissors nonsense. A 1v1 confrontation should be decided solely by skill.

So lets all take wooden sticks and see who's best over and over and over.

This kind of speak reeks individuality. I like to play as a team, and having classes so that you can't beat each other 1vs1 archer vs melee ect (although there's always a chance if you're good enough) encourages team play.

[Kafein]

Ok so throw that out then.  Every class can be countered by another class.  Like I've been trying to say (but apparently failing at conveying): I don't think the answer to balance is to nerf things, I think it's up to the teams and players to find out the natural weakness/es of a class and exploit it.  Not cry on the forums that they keep dying to ranged, or 2h, or cav, or whatever.

Okay (honestly I was sure that wasn't what you really wanted to say and I'm happy you made things clear).

But still, even though part of the whining comes from a lack of willingness to adapt, it can't be the only reason. This is very clear when you compare the amount of whining about ladders, and the amount of whining about, let's say... heavy armor ? Obviously, the whining about ladders is bigger than the one about heavy armor. And obviously too, the "problem" of ladders is bigger than that of heavy armor. What I'm trying to say is that whining doesn't come out of nothing. Is there whining about things that are actually unused/completely UP ? No. Whining posts about throwing weapon secondary modes ? About sumpter horses ?

Even if subjectivity is part of "whining", you can't dismiss it by arguing it is entirely based on subjective experiences. Because it's obviously not when you compare the amount of whining about real, objective problems, and the amount about things that are objectively balanced or underpowered. This is true at the individual scale (everybody is partly subjective but usually tries to be objective) and even more so when you have many people telling the same thing.

Two last points. First, you can't argue that some classes (2h, archers, whatever) will whine more and others less when confronted to the same perceived balance problems, neither can you say that some classes are more active on the forums. The people that play are statistically the same.