The state of cRPG

[Old Autobus]

I agree with Ujin.
The easiest solution i could think of:
1) Remove ladders from battle
2) Make archers pay.

For both inf and cav best gear means money loss.
I think using Warbow/Longbow should make archers bleed money.

[a_bear_irl]

imo archery, crossbow, and throwing should be made so expensive that using it is non-viable for all but the most dedicated or veteran players. the problem now is that your average scrub starts playing his first gen, gets shot to pieces (or lanced, but i think cav is less of a problem) and says "well, fuck it i'll just roll archer" and the problem snowballs to what we have now. i don't see how you could nerf archery enough to significantly reduce their numbers without making it completely worthless, so making it prohibitively expensive is the solution.

also heavy cav needs a nerf, the toughness of the 5 riding horses (warhorse/cata/etc) has been out of control for a while now

[MrShine]

archery is already plenty expensive if you use bodkins.   no other gen do I lose money - granted I don't play cav.

arrows have a higher break chance rate and you usually have at least 2 stacks.  Sure using a good 2H you may have to repair a large amount from time to time, but it's a very rare round when neither stack of bodkins break.  Taking whatever gold you might gain a round and subracting 350 - 700 gold from it is basically a given.

being an archer is fine, it's when people move in straight lines or aren't aware of their surroundings/archer lanes that they take ranged punishment - as they should.  I do agree roof camping is pretty lame, especially when people destroy ladders right away as opposed to just leaving them up.   Still, as long as you avoid archer hot beds and let other ranged/cav/shielders do their job in picking em off it isn't too bad.

[Zerran]

imo archery, crossbow, and throwing should be made so expensive that using it is non-viable for all but the most dedicated or veteran players. the problem now is that your average scrub starts playing his first gen, gets shot to pieces (or lanced, but i think cav is less of a problem) and says "well, fuck it i'll just roll archer" and the problem snowballs to what we have now. i don't see how you could nerf archery enough to significantly reduce their numbers without making it completely worthless, so making it prohibitively expensive is the solution.

also heavy cav needs a nerf, the toughness of the 5 riding horses (warhorse/cata/etc) has been out of control for a while now

This is exactly the problem. In order to play cav, the player needs a good buildup of money, and/or enough skill to keep a good multi. In order to play infantry, the player needs to practice a LOT to get the the point that it's actually fun. In order to play archer you need to be able to point and click.

Now that's not to say being a GOOD archer is easy, because it does take some skill (not as much as melee imo, but it's not "easy"), however even some scrub picking up an xbow or bow for the first time can get some kills and live through the round. Therefore, a lot of newbs get sick of dying constantly w/o doing anything in melee, and can't afford cav, so they run with a bow.

One thing that would help with this is to remove roofcamping (Or severely nerf it at least). Make archers actually need some battle awareness like inf and cav.

This could be fixed, without any direct dev intervention, by the mapmakers. Look at Tropical as a great example. It allows archers to go nuts, yet they are constantly vulnerable. Additionally, there need to be a LOT fewer random village maps. There is absolutely no reason to have 6 different versions of the same village in rotation, just REMOVE THE OLD ONES already, this is not that difficult to do!

Another thing that might help is to make the high end bows more expensive.

The only other thing I can think of that would help is to make archery more skill based, but I have no idea how to do that.

EDIT: Also, the heavy cav thing is spot on. Cav in general is balanced imo, but stopping a charger in the middle of a group of friendlies, all of whom instantly jump on it and are hacking at it just to watch it make a 180 and run away is some serious bullshit.

EDIT2: Slightly buff heavy cav charge, but either reduce their health down to the levels of other cav or decrease speed and maneuverability.

[Zerran]

Sorry, hit quote instead of edit.

[a_bear_irl]

archery is already plenty expensive if you use bodkins.   no other gen do I lose money - granted I don't play cav.

arrows have a higher break chance rate and you usually have at least 2 stacks.  Sure using a good 2H you may have to repair a large amount from time to time, but it's a very rare round when neither stack of bodkins break.  Taking whatever gold you might gain a round and subracting 350 - 700 gold from it is basically a given.

being an archer is fine, it's when people move in straight lines or aren't aware of their surroundings/archer lanes that they take ranged punishment - as they should.  I do agree roof camping is pretty lame, especially when people destroy ladders right away as opposed to just leaving them up.   Still, as long as you avoid archer hot beds and let other ranged/cav/shielders do their job in picking em off it isn't too bad.

the most an archer setup is going to cost (unless it's a hybrid) is about 25k, compared to probably 35-40 for your standard melee troop and 80-100 for a cav. it's the cheapest class to play right now. bodkins might break more often but if you're a heavy melee your weapon or armor alone can cost 900-1k to repair. also, "dont move in a straight line" works when you're moving from place to place or trying to get to one archer, not when there's 10 or 15 shooting into a melee

edit: the poll alone is testament to the amount of archers and cav, no melee player with more than 5 hours played would vote anything but yes

[Tristan]

Issue is cav as well. Honestly whoever wins on server 1 is the one with the best cav.

Roof hugging archers is annoying, but cav would own every server if it wasn't so.

If we nerf archery, all we are going to see is pikemen and cav. Bwooooring!

[BlackMilk]

Issue is cav as well. Honestly whoever wins on server 1 is the one with the best cav.

Roof hugging archers is annoying, but cav would own every server if it wasn't so.

If we nerf archery, all we are going to see is pikemen and cav. Bwooooring!

If we nerf archery, cav and pikeman (is it even possible to do so? ) all we are going to see is melee. Boring.

[justme]

upkeep for ladders? high upkeep will  reduce ppl who spam ladders every round..

[Vibe]

word yo

[Cepeshi]

Price on ladders should go just as high as the ladder itself! That would really help actually, people without throwing profficiency would have high chance to repair, but then, who would take ladder to counter the roofcampers? There will be people able to afford the ladders even when ultraexpensive.

Removing ladders from battle is a no go or what? Bleh, sad...

Anw, i was cav for few gens, now back to 2her and loving it  On hugely populated server its fine, i rage ocassinaly from ranged death, but usually when its funny or good hit, i appreciate it, laugh, go to watch simpsons and wait for respawn.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

@ Christo: Went to bed yesterday, so I couldn't answer^^

I have nothing against shieldwalls, you misunderstand me. What I don't like is, that shieldwall is the only tactic, that comes to people's minds on a random plains map. And usually they totally fail at their shieldwalls, that's what I was talking about. I've seen good shieldwalls and it's is nice to use them as cover (either for shooting or for walking forward), but they are a rare species in crpg.
So next time read again instead of putting all ranged players into one drawer.

This is exactly the problem. In order to play cav, the player needs a good buildup of money, and/or enough skill to keep a good multi. In order to play infantry, the player needs to practice a LOT to get the the point that it's actually fun. In order to play archer you need to be able to point and click.

Now that's not to say being a GOOD archer is easy, because it does take some skill (not as much as melee imo, but it's not "easy"), however even some scrub picking up an xbow or bow for the first time can get some kills and live through the round. Therefore, a lot of newbs get sick of dying constantly w/o doing anything in melee, and can't afford cav, so they run with a bow.

Oh yeah, that is why we have about 50 top archers in crpg who always kill everyone and top the lists most of the time.

Check all these archers out there and you will see how many can survive if they don't go on a roof because someone placed a ladder. And check out how many of them can really hit someone on purpose instead of by luck

It never comes to the mind of people like you, that players might be archers, because it is fun to shoot with a bow and because crpg is the best game (I know) when it comes to archery? Nah can't be true. It is all because they are noobs and can't play melee etc etc 


Someone here suggested to place fixed ladders or something so that roofs can't be unreachable anymore and thus would make roofcamping less attractive and delete deployable ladders from battle.
I really like that idea and suggested it a couple of times, but no dev ever made any comment about it. I suppose it wouldn't be that hard for someone who knows about mapmaking, just going through all the maps and maybe add 1-2 ladders to roofs (preferably from both sides or from the middle so that no team gets an advantage). Noone demands such a thing to be done in one day dear devs, but it is still the best idea to deal with roofcamping problem in my opinion.
Some people will now start saying the same old stuff again like "Yeah but when there are 10 archers on a roof they can still shoot you even when there is a fixed ladder".
True dat, but wayne?  I can still get killed when I play on a server, does it mean I'll quit playing?
If people were clever, they would immediately send a couple of fast shielders onto the rooftops when they start to fill with archers or when they reach the house. Most archers usually miss too much or don't do enough dmg to stop all these shielders or they will just run as soon as someone approaches the roof (happens alot).
But for that people would have to stop throwing away their brain as soon as they take a shield.
I know some really good shielders, but most shielders in this game only protect themselves with their shield (they even dodge arrows because they could scratch their shield instead of protectin their team) and fight for themselves.
When people stop thinking, that the most important thing is, that they kill everyone on their own and that they have to stay alive until the round ends, then we might be able to get some good teamwork and we might be able to deal with roofcamping.

Why not sometimes sacrifise yourself for you team? It's a good thing, might help your team win and at least shows some kind of teamplay.

Have fun ripping my post

[chadz]

Removing ladders from battle is a no go or what?

no

[Xant]

So removing ladders from battle is not a no go? is that what you really mean

[Vibe]

I think he means he wants to remove ladders