Crush-Through on Bar Mace and Long Iron Mace

[Gorath]

After CT gets removed, Warcleaver will be much better than Barmace at everything.

Barmace has knockdown and blunt damage so your assertion is highly debatable.

[Heroin]

If they didn't heirloom it for crushthrough abusability, why should they even want to respec as soon as crushthrough abusability is taken away?

There is a HUGE difference between removing "crush-through abusability" and crush-through in general, which is what this thread was about to begin with. I agree with them toning down the weapons so that the heirloomed version only crushes as often as the regular version, which would require lowering the weight/damage. I am NOT ok with taking away a fundamental part of the weapon without refunding heirlooms.

My entire point is, balancing things requires a scalpal, and it seems like the devs are using a great maul on this one. Rather than balancing it the way it was meant to work, they're just completely altering it's role in the game.

[DrKronic]

DISCLAIMER: IF YOU ARE TOTALLY AGAINST CRUSH-THROUGH IN ANY FORM, PLEASE DO NOT LITTER THIS THREAD WITH YOUR COMMENTS. THERE ARE PLENTY OF THREADS THAT ARE APPROPRIATE FOR CRUSH-HATE. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

I have now heard from several posts that "the devs have confirmed that the bar mace and long iron mace are losing their crush-through in an upcoming patch."

Can a developer confirm this, or can anyone link to a post in which a developer confirms it?

If this is, in fact, the case, several things should be addressed.

First, taking crush-through away from a weapon that has it fundamentally changes the way that weapon works. The weapons speed/reach/damage/cost should be scrutinized to ensure that this loss does not make the weapon an invalid or inefficient choice.

Secondly, heirlooms take a significant amount of time to get. People heirloom items based on many things, but most of all based on the items stats and abilities. If you fundamentally change the way an item works, people who heirloomed those items should have those heirlooms refunded. (Before anyone says "they abused the heirloom/crush-through mechanic, let them suffer", understand that SOME people may have heirloomed before such mechanics were even known to be the case.)

Last, I would like to address the core issue here. The increase in damage and WEIGHT in particular with heirlooming is what I understand to be the problem, which results in these weapons crushing through with a regularity that was never intended. Why take away a core function of the item, rather than re-balance the heirlooms to ensure that they don't get 90% crush-through? It makes sense to me that you'd simply re-balance something to not be OP, rather than fundamentally alter the way the item works. But perhaps I'm missing something? Feel free to enlighten me.

DISCLAIMER: IF YOU ARE TOTALLY AGAINST CRUSH-THROUGH IN ANY FORM, PLEASE DO NOT LITTER THIS THREAD WITH YOUR COMMENTS. THERE ARE PLENTY OF THREADS THAT ARE APPROPRIATE FOR CRUSH-HATE. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

I agree that two hand maces should be repurposed, possibly by adding damage removing unbalanced with crushthrough and mebbe adding bonus vs shields so it can still be a shield buster

[Zisa]

The crush through mechanic was introduced to counter the worst turtles. I am ok with removing it, so long as some of these gd shields actually break. I watched a metal shield survive 50 bec hits, and the guy was not trying to swing back - THAT is why crush through got introduced.

[Rhaelys]

The crush through mechanic was introduced to counter the worst turtles. I am ok with removing it, so long as some of these gd shields actually break. I watched a metal shield survive 50 bec hits, and the guy was not trying to swing back - THAT is why crush through got introduced.

Crushthrough also affects obliterates manual blocks and chambers.

[DrKronic]

There is a HUGE difference between removing "crush-through abusability" and crush-through in general, which is what this thread was about to begin with. I agree with them toning down the weapons so that the heirloomed version only crushes as often as the regular version, which would require lowering the weight/damage. I am NOT ok with taking away a fundamental part of the weapon without refunding heirlooms.

My entire point is, balancing things requires a scalpal, and it seems like the devs are using a great maul on this one. Rather than balancing it the way it was meant to work, they're just completely altering it's role in the game.

Unfortunate after 30 years of watching, playing, testing games. ONLINE RPGS are often governed by the rule of whine

Whine enough and the devs USUALLY nerf the "whine target" into the realm of the worthless

I can't name a beta in my twenty years of playtesting that didn't work exactly like that

And never does a RPG developer goes backwards from a full nerf in my experience

[Heroin]

I agree that two hand maces should be repurposed, possibly by adding damage removing unbalanced with crushthrough and mebbe adding bonus vs shields so it can still be a shield buster

See, this solution would be fine. But a solution is required.

[Noble Crassius]

Lol @ the bonus v shields suggestion. Why should these be the only blunt weapons to have it? because their CT got removed? Iron staff doesn't have CT, it's blunt, so by your arguements it should have a bonus v shields as well lawl.

Simply removing the unbalanced tag (and maybe a 1-2 point buf in speed) will put the BM on the same level as the great swords. Damage is not an issue wth the bar mace I regulary get 1-2 hitted by side swings.

[Krakatit]

Leave Barmace as it is and learn to play...

[DarkFox]

The crush through mechanic was introduced to counter the worst turtles. I am ok with removing it, so long as some of these gd shields actually break. I watched a metal shield survive 50 bec hits, and the guy was not trying to swing back - THAT is why crush through got introduced.

Always wondered from where people know such things .Who said to you?Armagan?

[Babelfish]

Leave Barmace as it is and learn to play...

tosk

[Heroin]

Simply removing the unbalanced tag (and maybe a 1-2 point buf in speed) will put the BM on the same level as the great swords. Damage is not an issue wth the bar mace I regulary get 1-2 hitted by side swings.

This is a good suggestion as well. I'm not opposed to solutions, people. But there DOES need to be a solution. Unbalanced and slow with no plus side? No thanks. I can get a sword that is longer, faster, and does relatively the same damage to an armored opponent.

[Babelfish]

This is a good suggestion as well. I'm not opposed to solutions, people. But there DOES need to be a solution. Unbalanced and slow with no plus side? No thanks. I can get a sword that is longer, faster, and does relatively the same damage to an armored opponent.

Knockdown and high blunt damage is not enough?? 

[Kalam]

The crush through mechanic was introduced to counter the worst turtles. I am ok with removing it, so long as some of these gd shields actually break. I watched a metal shield survive 50 bec hits, and the guy was not trying to swing back - THAT is why crush through got introduced.

That's because he wasn't using an axe. A masterwork huscarl with about 8 shield skill takes 12 hits with a broad one-handed battle axe with 4 PS. That's fine with me, since, in battle, it's never taken me more than four or five hits. It's faster, with, say, a long war axe and more PS. 

[Heroin]

Knockdown and high blunt damage is not enough??

On a slow, unbalanced weapon that you're never going to hit a skilled opponent with? Nope, it most certainly is NOT enough. It will be outclassed by TONS of swords that are, again, "longer, faster, and about equal in damage to it".