Crush-Through on Bar Mace and Long Iron Mace

[Gorath]

That's not a penalty, Gorath.

Um... I'm gonna take this as a "LOL!  Oh you" type of comment rather than assume you were serious.  So in that vein:  Pshaw, oh you....

[Heroin]

Ok, this argument works for me.  Now buff my mancleaver.

In duels unbalanced can totally fuck you because you can't emergency correct to pull your swing in order to block or swap attack directions.  It's a huge drawback against skilled opponents.  Also it makes it far easier to TK when idiot teammates run in front of you in their kill-greed-frenzy as once your swing has started fully you can't stop the swing like with any other weapon without the unbalanced tag.  Unbalanced is actually quite a huge penalty.

This. I agree. Remove unbalanced from the mancleaver too, imo.

In reading between the lines of this thread, I do not understand why having had a 1:3 heirloom respec in January matters in deciding to implement another heirloom respec in the next patch. This is supposed to be a fun game for everyone to play, and people are supposed to change their minds, playstyles, desires etc. This is not about control, or parents setting rules and children abiding by them, or learning lessons from lost opportunities or mistakes, or anything else. This is an online game to provide adults as well as children with fun, an escape from reality, an opportunity to bond with each other, and enjoy our lives just a little bit more. This is the point of Mods, and my understanding of cRPG, so why so much reluctance to make everyone happy? I honestly do not get it.

Allowing everyone to respect heirlooms 1:1 provides

• Everyone who owns any heirloomed item being significantly changed with an exchange option so they do not feel they lost time
• Provides opportunity for players to try different play styles without feeling they wasted time on previously heirloomed armor or weapons

For example, someone who invested heirlooms into heavy armor and plays heavy strength, can decide instead to play light armor with high agility without feeling they wasted time if they change play styles, or worse they decide not to change playstyle to avoid feeling they wasted time. Same applies to the Bar Mace, except that a core functionality of the Bar Mace is being removed.

Help me understand why the process of polishing an excellent game and maintaining integrity of balance is in contradiction to helping everyone feel happy? Character and heirloom respecs allow for all of this to occur all at once.

Great post, Blackstone. I think this should be copied, written into a script, and forced to pop up on every devs screen, for every game/mod in existence, every 24 hours, just to ensure that they maintain a perspective that there are real people attached to those anonymous names they see on the forums.

[Blondin]

If you feel like you waste time by playing this game you should stop right now.

"Ppl waste time"... That make me laught...  why do you play this mod? To have fun or to grind your super uber heirloom weapon and your super uber build to pwn every noobs...
I don't get it...
If dev choose (or have) to take away all my heirlooms, take away all my equip, reset my alts or even reset everything, well, i'll continue to play this mod, cos i play to enjoy the game, not to masturbate on my char and his equip...

Plz don't feel offended, i just want to remember the "essence" of this mod.
And i don't feel dev own me anything, they don't receive salary, i didn't pay for this mod (except donation) and one day if they lose the fun in creating this mod, they just stop and it's'over.
..
Btw, if dev choose to give you free heirlooms or a new crushtrough uber weapon, that's fine, i don't care either, i'll continue to play and adapt to find a way to kill you, that's the challenge. I don't find challenge in pwning everybody that's why i stopped playing sp.

[Elmetiacos]

Unfortunate after 30 years of watching, playing, testing games. ONLINE RPGS are often governed by the rule of whine

Whine enough and the devs USUALLY nerf the "whine target" into the realm of the worthless

I can't name a beta in my twenty years of playtesting that didn't work exactly like that

And never does a RPG developer goes backwards from a full nerf in my experience

Archery.

[Heroin]

Archery.

Goretooth usually tops the scoreboards on his archer generations, as well as his melee generations. Just goes to show, a good player is a good player, regardless of class. Same for baddies.

[Banok]

In reading between the lines of this thread, I do not understand why having had a 1:3 heirloom respec in January matters in deciding to implement another heirloom respec in the next patch. This is supposed to be a fun game for everyone to play, and people are supposed to change their minds, playstyles, desires etc. This is not about control, or parents setting rules and children abiding by them, or learning lessons from lost opportunities or mistakes, or anything else. This is an online game to provide adults as well as children with fun, an escape from reality, an opportunity to bond with each other, and enjoy our lives just a little bit more. This is the point of Mods, and my understanding of cRPG, so why so much reluctance to make everyone happy? I honestly do not get it.

Allowing everyone to respect heirlooms 1:1 provides

• Everyone who owns any heirloomed item being significantly changed with an exchange option so they do not feel they lost time
• Provides opportunity for players to try different play styles without feeling they wasted time on previously heirloomed armor or weapons

For example, someone who invested heirlooms into heavy armor and plays heavy strength, can decide instead to play light armor with high agility without feeling they wasted time if they change play styles, or worse they decide not to change playstyle to avoid feeling they wasted time. Same applies to the Bar Mace, except that a core functionality of the Bar Mace is being removed.

Help me understand why the process of polishing an excellent game and maintaining integrity of balance is in contradiction to helping everyone feel happy? Character and heirloom respecs allow for all of this to occur all at once.

Great post much better worded than I could achieve. This is related to why I get a bit pissed at this mod sometimes, I almost feel sometimes like the developers want to encourage us to grind. This is a common strategy in subscription MMOs, but nonsensical in profit free mods ;)

[ManOfWar]

This is why no one can argue bar mace current stats will be balanced without crush though:


Long Hafted Spiked Mace   4745   
weight 3
requirement 13
spd rtng 94
weapon length 138
swing damage 34, blunt (1 less damage)
thrust damage 20 blunt
Knockdown


Bar Mace   5150   
weight 4.5
requirement 13
spd rtng 92 (SLOWER)
weapon length 96 (MUCH LESS REACH)
swing damage 35, blunt
thrust damage 0 blunt (NO STAB)
Unbalanced (OMG)
Knockdown

2 speed points do not have a noticeable difference in the 90's and that reach is more than enough with enough athletics,
stab who gives a shit
if it is unbalanced wy cant I spam its overhand so it doesnt crush through and rape me?

[Konrax]

Hate to say it but both those weapons are OP imo.

[Adamar]

If possible the crush-through property should be more fluid depending on the user and the target. Say, if the target is really strong, then he should have high chances of resisting it.

[Heroin]

2 speed points do not have a noticeable difference in the 90's and that reach is more than enough with enough athletics,
stab who gives a shit
if it is unbalanced wy cant I spam its overhand so it doesnt crush through and rape me?

Read the thread, manofwar. This isn't about whether or not the current heirloomed barmace is OP or not. We KNOW it's OP. This thread is a discussion about how best to fix that problem, without OVERnerfing the barmace.

[Seawied]

If possible the crush-through property should be more fluid depending on the user and the target. Say, if the target is really strong, then he should have high chances of resisting it.

Its a nice idea, but I'm 90% certain that crush-through is hard-coded. It certainly would give a whole new aspect to the game

[Mouse]

Removing crush from the bar mace and long iron fixes everything wrong with them. 35 blunt damage makes the bar mace the weapon of choice against armor for 2H users. Against heavy armor few other 2H weapons can compete with these maces, those being the Sarranid battle axe, great bardiche, morning star, and flamburger[sic]. Except against heirloomed black armor like Goretooth's the bar mace still does more damage. Heirloom weapon bonuses puts things further in the bar mace's favor for damage against heavy armor.

[Vexus]

Its a nice idea, but I'm 90% certain that crush-through is hard-coded. It certainly would give a whole new aspect to the game

I thought that's how it works already? dunno but I thought the higher PS you have the less chance they can crush on you obviously having a heavy weapon helps a lot.

[cmp]

I thought that's how it works already? dunno but I thought the higher PS you have the less chance they can crush on you obviously having a heavy weapon helps a lot.

Nope, the only things that matters on the blocking side is weapon/shield weight (and type, polearms and 2h got a slight bonus).

[Heroin]

Removing crush from the bar mace and long iron fixes everything wrong with them. 35 blunt damage makes the bar mace the weapon of choice against armor for 2H users. Against heavy armor few other 2H weapons can compete with these maces, those being the Sarranid battle axe, great bardiche, morning star, and flamburger[sic]. Except against heirloomed black armor like Goretooth's the bar mace still does more damage. Heirloom weapon bonuses puts things further in the bar mace's favor for damage against heavy armor.

All of those other weapons you mentioned have a plus side in exchange for having the "unbalanced" flag. They all have bonus vs. shield. Unbalanced weapons should have either bonus vs. shield, or crush-through. Failing that, they should not have the unbalanced flag. I really don't see why people are complaining about the idea that, if you remove the positive flag that makes them "OP"(as opposed to simply lowering the weight to balance them), you also remove the negative flag that accompanies that positive flag.

Items typically have the "unbalanced" flag BECAUSE they have the positive of CT or BvS. In taking away that bonus, it only makes sense to also remove the negative flag that was there to balance the positive to begin with.