Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion

[Joker86]

Hi!

It's 3:40am here in Germany, and I am about to sleep with the face on the keyboard of my laptop, but for tomorrow I want a nice topic with a lot of emotional argumentation, that's why I suggest an unrealistic, difficult to implement idea:

Make aproper shield wall feature!

It works this way:

- a player has to block with a shield and press the "shield wall" key for a few moments
- his shield will remain in the blocking position even if the releases the right mouse button
- his movement speed gets lowered even more than it is by mere blocking with the shield
- to his left and right two "invisible boxes" appear, that move with the player.
- if another friendly player blocks with his shield within one of those boxes, and presses the shield wall key for a few moments, he gets attached to the closer side of the shield wall.
- he gets one of those invisible boxes on his free side, again. This can be repeated unlimited times
- next to the invisible "shield wall" boxes next to them, both players get another invisible box in their back, for the second line. You need 3 or more players to have them appear
- the player who initiated the shield wall has the exclusive control over the movement of the entire formation. If he moves to one of the four directions, the shield wall will move accordingly. If he turns around his body axis, the entire shield wall will rotate, while the movement speed of the slowest player at the ends of the formations determines the speed. Which means the longer a shield wall is, the slower it turns.
- if a player presses the shield wall key (again for a few seconds) within the area of one of those "second line boxes" (he doesn't need to block to do so), he is being attatched to the back of one of the shield wall members and stick as close to him as Gerorge Michael would stick to Ricky Martin. Which means he becomes part of the formation, and the formation leader takes control over his feet.
- the funny thing is: as soon as you have at least three guys in your shield wall, one to each side of the formation leader, a wonderful thing happens: your shield remains in its position, and you can move it a bit to all sides like if you were still holding the right mouse button. It keeps on protecting you from missiles, but simultaneously you can attack THROUGH your shield. It won't protect you against melee attacks, to have this function you need to right click again. But even when blocking with your shield, you will still be able to either stab or swing over your head, with noticeably reduced speed and range. This represents how you fight around your shield while still keeping the shield wall up.
- being kicked, horsebumped or wounded removes any shield protection (for a moment) from you, as usual.
- horses bumping players in formation will be slowed down more than usually.
- but not only that you can attack through your shield: the man in the second row can attack through you! This way it's especially effective if you place spearmen or archers into the second row! It represents how they fight over your shoulder.

- if you want to leave the formation simply press the shield wall key once, and you are out
- when a player is removed out of the first line, it doesn't close automatically, one or both players next to him have to move closer to each other and keep the shield wall key pressed. It's actually easy: keeping pressed means to attach, pressing it once means detaching. If it was the former leader who left, one of them (the one in the middle of the formation. If two men are in the middle, the game decides randomly) takes over control.
- If you are a fighter in the second line and your front man leaves or is being leaved, you get released from the formation. You either have to find a "free" front man, or join the front line yourself at one of the flanks.
- if you think attacking from the second line through the first line would be too hard, you can make a condition for this to have the front line crouch (another new control key): the front line moves MUCH slower, lowering the speed of the formation considerably. The second row would still be rather well protected, especially against melee attacks, while the front line would remain protected against projectiles (as said above).


The weakness of this formation would be its low mobility, and if a few enemies (especially cav) manage to outflank the formation, they can wreak havoc among you before you even manage to dissolve the formation!

I think it would be great fun having both lines approach each other and then trying to break through/outflank. The fact that you can't create "corners" of this formations means that you can only cover one side perfectly, but the other three will be weakened. The feeling of real medieval battles would come up, and tactis and teamplay would become more important. (Which is a good thing, IMHO).

Okay, now it's 4:10 am, and I am dying.

Discuss! 

[Earthdforce]

One player controlling multiple toons? I don't particularly like it.. (the movement, that is)

[Joker86]

Update:

- when a player is removed out of the first line, it doesn't close automatically, one or both players next to him have to move closer to each other and keep the shield wall key pressed. It's actually easy: keeping pressed means to attach, pressing it once means detaching
- if you think attacking from the second line through the first line would be too hard, you can make a condition for this to have the front line crouch (another new control key): the front line moves MUCH slower, lowering the speed of the formation considerably. The second row would still be rather well protected, especially against melee attacks, while the front line would remain protected against projectiles (as said above).

(I will edit my first post, for those people who only read the OP)

One player controlling multiple toons? I don't particularly like it.. (the movement, that is)

I understand your concerns, but "democracy" or "egoism" doesn't work in military. And finally you are free to join the formation or not. 

[B3RS3RK]

Something similar once was implemented(No Idea if it still is).chadz once made it that when Shielders stand close together, their shields are harder to destroy, more the more shielders stand in a row.

[Kajia]

what if one shield somewhere in the middle breaks? there will be two shieldwalls ...? how would the new middle guy know he's the main shieldwall-dude?
...
i like the idea, but i think the game shouldn't force players position -
an "all walk same low speed" option would be less annoying, and would still help staying beside your shield neighbors, and doesn't restrict you.

[Largg]

Yeah, walk command would be greatly useful. Slow enough so that even the fattest tincan can keep up with formation.

[dodnet]

Didn't read all, but I say no to automatic movement of a whole group. The players are still individuals and should act so. If you want a working shieldwall, get the ppl on TS and give commands there.

Another solution would be that you can change the speed you move at. So you could walk slower that other can follow you and don't fall back. But still everyone should control that by itself.

[Xant]

Something similar once was implemented(No Idea if it still is).chadz once made it that when Shielders stand close together, their shields are harder to destroy, more the more shielders stand in a row.

It's like this in Strategus. But it doesn't really work when moving because there's no walk command.

[Joker86]

Yeah, walk command would be greatly useful. Slow enough so that even the fattest tincan can keep up with formation.

And who decides who will give the commands? And where is the big difference to one player controlling all feet? 

If everybody has to care for himself to hold formation it won't work, especially not on public battles with pug teams, for which the idea was meant (as clans should have enough discipline, will and Teamspeak to hold up some formation).

It is the only solution that came into my mind.

what if one shield somewhere in the middle breaks? there will be two shieldwalls ...?

In this case, I would say no. But the shield wall would have a weak spot in this moment. Unlike the player leaving or being killed (which does lead to "two" shield walls), shield breaking is not yet that severe. My main argument is, that the player could have a second shield on his back, quickly switching to it at the next occasion. Breaking up the formation in this case would be unjustified. And even if the player has no shield left, he could rely on his manual blocking skills, especially when the enemy infantry is close so that he won't be shot most likely. If he doesn't want to block manually (or he can't, more likely  ), then he can simply press the shield wall button, fall back and break up the formation.

how would the new middle guy know he's the main shieldwall-dude?

Perhaps all friendly player could see some kind of banner floating over the leader's head, so everybody in the team would know?

i like the idea, but i think the game shouldn't force players position -
an "all walk same low speed" option would be less annoying, and would still help staying beside your shield neighbors, and doesn't restrict you.

As I said, I don't think it's being forced, as you can decide IF and WHERE(=when) you will join the shield wall. And if the leader's a retard you can simply leave.

Don't expect too much footwork. The way I imagined it would work would be, that the leader points the formation roughly towards the majority of the enemies and then walks towards them slowly. Once the enemy is reached the shield wall will stop most likely to take the first clash, and then, depending on the course of the battle, either advance or fall back slowly. Footwork to increase the effects of strikes or to play with the weapon reach won't exist on the side with the shield wall, only the enemy will do so if he doesn't have a formation himself.

Although my shield wall suggestion represents a strong and powerful formation, it's not unbeatable. You can still kick, blockcrush or horsebump the shieldmen or break their shield, or alternatively shoot him into the head or feet, and if you manage to kill one and quickly jump into the gap you already have broken up the formation.

Additionally most shieldmen who block constantly (= are immune to all melee attacks but blockcrushing) will be limited to either stabbing (spears) or overhead strikes (sabres/cleavers, maces, axes). Only swordsmen can both hit and stab, and as I said it's with limited range.

Which leads to a development that I like much: the best weapons to break up a shield wall are long two handed weapons, halberd-like polearms and a concentrated cavalry charge. The limited reach, mobility and offensive capabilities of the first line make an approach rather undangerous for the enemy.

This is where the second line is important. With pikes/spear/halberds, very long 2hd weapons or with ranged weapons they can keep the enemy on distance, especially the vulnerable cavalry and the shieldless offensive infantry represented by 2hd/polearm users.

The funny thing is, that I didn't plan the part above. I just thought what my suggestion would change, and indeed the effects would be rather realistic. I think.

Didn't read all, but I say no to automatic movement of a whole group. The players are still individuals and should act so. If you want a working shieldwall, get the ppl on TS and give commands there.

With this argumentation you don't need any ingame command system, ingame chat or any other device to communicate with others.

A game should not only favour those who organize in clans, it should help to communicate with everybody, ESPECIALLY the random public player, as in most cases it's them you want to talk to.

A game with different classes, playing in teams should support and encourage teamplay actively, that's my opinion at least.

Another solution would be that you can change the speed you move at. So you could walk slower that other can follow you and don't fall back. But still everyone should control that by itself.

I don't think movement speed is so much of a problem, rather than the simple fact to know when to move and when to stop. And as soon as the first enemies reach the shield wall the formation will break up, due to the fact that M&B needs footwork to fight properly.

If is makes you feel better, you could implement that every player (except of the poor leader) can use his movement keys to lean their upper bodies to the sides, which equals footwork on a very small room (1mx1m at the most, I would say, which is 100 weapon legth at least).

It's like this in Strategus. But it doesn't really work when moving because there's no walk command.

That's my point.

[ArchonAlarion]

I think a walk/run key would be better. A shieldwall member has to keep up with the formation, this requires teamwork and tactics and shouldn't be automated.

The best thing though might be if there was a walk/jog key (walk being a constant slow movement, and jog being the current way moving works, with a gradual acceleration) and you could double tap W to sprint for a limited time like in minecraft. Like, full out running.

Key X toggles walk on or off
walk - constant slow speed
Jog - gradual acceleration starting at a slightly higher speed than walk

Double tap W and hold for sprint
A full out run with a limited duration

Possible extensions:
Doubletap and hold A or D for a dodge

[Joker86]

I think a walk/run key would be better. A shieldwall member has to keep up with the formation, this requires teamwork and tactics and shouldn't be automated.

This is where I already have serious doubts. Honestly, except of clan players the level of teamwork, tactics, coordination via chat or brain usage at all is amazingly low on the servers.

I know the system of M&B already allows to create a rather effective shield wall. The problem is, that the biggest part of the community is like little children. They need training wheels/arm floats. Sad but (I think  ) true.

The central point of my suggestion IS to offer a system for a shield wall, where the player needs to actively quit participation to leave the formation. If the player has the possibility to...

... go after a weak target
... backpedal from a strong target
... move around to support his strikes by footwork
... be unconcentrated/distracted for a moment and forgets to walk/runs too far ahead

... in 99% of all cases he will do so, breaking up formation. What most players forget is, that if you really want to keep formation, you abandon a lot of things you would do on your own.

I think the problem here is that I don't get why people don't want to be intengrated into a fix formation. I understand, movement grants flexibility, which grants better chances to survive, but a closed formation offer additional protection, making up for the lost protection by movement.

Yes, without movement you also lose offensive potential, but you don't join a shield wall to attack, so no problem there.

I would be glad if someone would explain his arguments against letting someone else control your feet, and his feelings and thoughts as well. I really want to understand where the problem is, perhaps I forgot something and the idea is bad, or perhaps I forgot to mention something important and you got the wrong impression? Who knows?

[Skysong]

I disagree.
Making someone controlling a whole group is bad idea. Instead ppl should learn to move together.
Seriously how can you want someone else to control your char or removing ones ability to stick with the group and instead watch zombies walk?
You need someone to control on TS and others to follow. With practise it should be just fine.
Or you should make some bots and play with them. You know looking at your suggestions i bet you work at EA.

[Joker86]

I want to incorporate the "casual players" into using tactics in a team, but you keep telling me to stick to clan players.

What do we even need an ingame sound command feature for, if everyone is supposed to be in teamspeak? And what about those players who are no native English speakers like me? Trust me, perhaps you can understand what I am writing in English, but if I have to speak it I am always that slow, I sound like an English teacher... teaching it as a foreign language. I sound like the Queen. And if I hear others talking I understand nothing, especially those southern Americans/traitors.

So I guess I have bad luck? 

I think there is nothing bad in giving a helping hand for better teamplay for everyone, not only the most dedicated players. I don't like EA myself, but one of their companies, Mythic, made Warhammer Online, and I think the game has some nice features to kind of "gently push" players into groups (e.g. area related quests and so on), because those players, who don't contact to others in MMORPGs are of no use for anyone, and it's better to support them in helping someone and thus receiving help themselve than just to say "Who is interested in making groups/creating shieldwalls should do it on his own, and who doesn't care can keep on farming alone/being crowded and dying."


And noone else is controlling my char, because this sounds like he totally took over control. All he can do is to move my - otherwise stationary, as defending - character slowly into one direction. I for myself don't see anything bad in it, if I get additional defensive benefits, and simultaneously protect the man behind me. The formation leader can't make a lot wrong, unless he wants to troll the others, which would be no problem anyway. Movement is so slow, you would immediately see when he tries to turn the back of the formation towards the enemies, and you would leave formation. All the leader has to do is to point the formation towards the majority of the enemies and then advance or retreat slowly, as the situation requires.

Edit:

I want something like the first part of this. But 95% of all cRPG players would behave like Titus Pullo here (the guy who doesn't listen to his Centurion). Not because he doesn't want to listen, but simply because he forgets to hold formation. Footwork, chasing players, distractions, all these things make players break formation UNLESS it's done for the player automatically by the game, so that he doesn't need to concentrate on holding formation at all.

[Kafein]

Greatest metagame of cRPG : making suggestions x)

You seem very good at this Joker, most of what you write is well-tought. Alas you should know by now that the dev team never take the community's suggestions into account. This is not a rant, this is how it is.


Just let it die. There are plenty of good games out.

[Joker86]

Greatest metagame of cRPG : making suggestions x)

You seem very good at this Joker, most of what you write is well-tought. Alas you should know by now that the dev team never take the community's suggestions into account. This is not a rant, this is how it is.


Just let it die. There are plenty of good games out.

 

Never saw a post with more truth in it that yours. 


My answer is: as long as I have fun, I go on