Real shieldwall - I am dead tired, low quality suggestion

[Teeth]

Ever tried using a formation in cRPG. It sucks. There are enemies everywhere and you get shot at from different angles. Individual efficiency becomes really low, teamhitting ensues. Maneuvering is difficult.

I've participated in some formation training and then testing it in battle. It was called Mithras, some might remember the fishies. It was very uneffective.

The system you describes has no use at all.

[Joker86]

Finally a counter argument I find worth thinking about it. (Unlike "lol wtf someone else walking for me? GTFO!")

Could you elaborate what exactly went wrong, next to the obvious fact that in M&B footwork is needed for fighting, which doesn't fit to the idea of holding a line in a shield wall?

[Glyph]

Ever tried using a formation in cRPG. It sucks. There are enemies everywhere and you get shot at from different angles. Individual efficiency becomes really low, teamhitting ensues. Maneuvering is difficult.

I've participated in some formation training and then testing it in battle. It was called Mithras, some might remember the fishies. It was very uneffective.

The system you describes has no use at all.

if the invis boxes are placed a bit behind the person itself, then it would make a natural point, which is deensive against projectiles from a larger angle

[Overdriven]

Don't like the idea. I think this suggestion is probably the best in relation to formations:

The best suggestion I've heard so far in here was to make a "walk" key, that sets a pace irrespective of athletics or weight of equipment. This way people have a shot at moving in formation. Would probably make sense to make it a toggle key, instead of one you hold down.

That needs to be done. I think what you are suggesting Joker is far more complex to put into place, especially when I doubt anyone other than clans would use it (in which case you just have commands on TS). I'd rather people be able to move at the exact same pace with a walk key, but doesn't detract from individual skill.

[Black Wind]

You type too much. Lol.

[Teeth]

Finally a counter argument I find worth thinking about it. (Unlike "lol wtf someone else walking for me? GTFO!")

Could you elaborate what exactly went wrong, next to the obvious fact that in M&B footwork is needed for fighting, which doesn't fit to the idea of holding a line in a shield wall?

In those cases we would be on one team, forming formations with shielders, a few 2h and a few pikemen. We moved in formation too, which looked awesome. Amazing to see the enemy team give way too such a large concentration. No one liked to attack 8-10 enemies on his own. It sure has an effect on morale.

In some cases the enemy started creating shieldwalls too, which made me smile, and which caused some really medieval ish battles. But in most cases the enemy wouldn't. Which was ten times more effective. The problem is that in Warband every player pretty much moves individually. So around your little formation are enemies, single enemies. What do you do if an archer starts shooting you in the back? You can't chase him, you'll be without cover in the front, if you chase him he will probably run away. As a formation you are very much a focal point for ranged. You either get shot to pieces from different directions, or you end up forming half a circle against a wall.

As soon as the enemy does attack in considerable numbers, you have to break off formation. Fighting in formation causes a whole lot of doing nothing, because people are too afraid to hit teammates. The implementation of earlier active attacks has been very effective in making teamwork shit. Derpdevs. A lot of swings glance on your teammates, we even got opponents killing three of us right in our middle because we were unable to hit him while in a close formation. We also had cav running right through our formation, while it mostly consisted out of hoplites. You are very careful not to hit teammates and you therefore react slower.

After you break off formation its very hard to get back into formation, especially if you lost players, especially if you lost shielders. People are also completely not used to fighting as a team. We tried fighting in duo's. A designated partner that sticks with you and helps you out. You even lose those in combat.

The only way I can see formations work is if you have cav support and archer support looking out for you. Some system to make people move at the same speed when in a close group would really help maneuvering as a formation. Being stuck to another player, meh not so much.

[Joker86]

Yes, this is pretty much what I expected, and where I see the problems of the game mechanics. You just need footwork for fighting in M&B, and being limited to four hitting animations makes fighting while standing still really difficult. That's why I made following suggestions:

- the funny thing is: as soon as you have at least three guys in your shield wall, one to each side of the formation leader, a wonderful thing happens: your shield remains in its position, and you can move it a bit to all sides like if you were still holding the right mouse button. It keeps on protecting you from missiles, but simultaneously you can attack THROUGH your shield. It won't protect you against melee attacks, to have this function you need to right click again. But even when blocking with your shield, you will still be able to either stab or swing over your head, with noticeably reduced speed and range. This represents how you fight around your shield while still keeping the shield wall up.
[...]
- but not only that you can attack through your shield: the man in the second row can attack through you! This way it's especially effective if you place spearmen or archers into the second row! It represents how they fight over your shoulder.

If is makes you feel better, you could implement that every player (except of the poor leader) can use his movement keys to lean their upper bodies to the sides, which equals footwork on a very small room (1mx1m at the most, I would say, which is 100 weapon legth at least).

That's my point.

I can't tell if this would solve the problems you mentioned, as you would simply have to try it, but I am well aware of the problems you described. And having an archer or cavalry in your back is always a problem, and of course it's vital to eliminate them as quickly as possible. That's what all the remaining "skirmishers" are for, who didn't join the formation. But I wouldn't count is a counter argument, if anything a missing weakness of the formation would be a counter argument. 

[Teeth]

Still the most obvious problem with all these suggestions is that it might be impossible to code, or atleast very difficult and time consuming. With the current work rate of the dev team they will never finish something like that. There are much more important problems that require less time.

[Joker86]

Don't worry, I am already used to the fact that not a single one of my suggestions will ever be implemented