Rethinking Archery [Please Offer Criticism]

[Havoco]

Good idea, but I oppose any significant change to any item unless we are allowed to re heirloom items. besides, I think archery right now is fine.

[Grey]

I have an archer.

He has PD 6. This is the top limit any archer needs.

He has 150 wpf in archery.

He has very good K/D ratio.

I can post some screenshots if you want. Top of the tables, scores of 12/2, etc.....

SO: I can fire accurately as far as the game can render. I can kill ANYTHING with a single headshot. My 18 strengh allows me to destroy others in melee with basic weapons. I dont wear armour, or carry a shield.

WHY ON EARTH would you want to compare Warband (a great and innovative game) with GW (another cloned rpg where I press 1, then 2, then 3, then space bar, then 4, then 1, etc)??!!

GW sux my ass, its just another point and clickfest.

In CRPG, If I want fast fire and supperaccuracy, I grab my shortbow, if I want to dominate tincans, I grab my 'loomed warbow. When Im riding my horse I grab my Strongbow, or to save money my nomad bow..... On my agiarcher I always have my Hunting Bow to hand....

I read the OP, but the OP obviously hasnt played the game, or else he would see that there isnt a gradual progression, if you are seriously going to build an archer, the only realistic way to do it is use melee weapons untill 18 str........

PD over the requirement DOES NOT GIVE more accuracy, it merely allows you to hold the bow drawn for longer without suffering penalties. This can be helpful if you are fail at aiming, or cant pick a target.

Archery does need SOME love IMHO, but the OP's idea has not been thought out. BAD IDEA, if you want to change something, try to improve or innovate, dont just try to clone the style of another game, especially not so stagnant and downright BORING as GW.

[Siiem]

You lost me the moment you brought guild wars into your post.

[3ABP]

Very nice ideas and good job done by topic starter.
But as said before - looks like it is a terrible job to balance this whole new bow system.
And, just look, even ATM here is some differences between bows. Here is nice 3 bow what meet their requirements (Khergit, Strong and War).
Unfortunately first 3 bow are crap. But let it be. At least 3 bow are balanced now (better or worse, but balanced).
Lets just do something with Longbow and fine.
For not too big archers population - 4 actually used bows is totally enough. I even can't imagine a "targets\points\question" to the 3 first bows (hunting and e.t.c.).
Fast anti archer\Xbow = Khergit. HA - Khergit.
Need more dmg - Strong.
Want to kill (at least damage ^) ) tincans - warbow.
And as absolutely clear - totally crap - Longbow ^) = potentially bow for long distance shooting (and hard hitting ^) ). But thx the God - looks like developers thinking about this.

So - IMHO - here is not need TOTAL bow rebalance. Cos it takes a very long time to balance totally new system.
It is easer and cheaper to finish existing, than begin absolutely new.

But idea -is great. Yeah. But not for this mod (time, situation).

IMHO.

[Mouse]

I have an archer.

He has PD 6. This is the top limit any archer needs.

He has 150 wpf in archery.

He has very good K/D ratio.

I can post some screenshots if you want. Top of the tables, scores of 12/2, etc.....

SO: I can fire accurately as far as the game can render. I can kill ANYTHING with a single headshot. My 18 strengh allows me to destroy others in melee with basic weapons. I dont wear armour, or carry a shield.

WHY ON EARTH would you want to compare Warband (a great and innovative game) with GW (another cloned rpg where I press 1, then 2, then 3, then space bar, then 4, then 1, etc)??!!

GW sux my ass, its just another point and clickfest.

In CRPG, If I want fast fire and supperaccuracy, I grab my shortbow, if I want to dominate tincans, I grab my 'loomed warbow. When Im riding my horse I grab my Strongbow, or to save money my nomad bow..... On my agiarcher I always have my Hunting Bow to hand....

I read the OP, but the OP obviously hasnt played the game, or else he would see that there isnt a gradual progression, if you are seriously going to build an archer, the only realistic way to do it is use melee weapons untill 18 str........

PD over the requirement DOES NOT GIVE more accuracy, it merely allows you to hold the bow drawn for longer without suffering penalties. This can be helpful if you are fail at aiming, or cant pick a target.

Archery does need SOME love IMHO, but the OP's idea has not been thought out. BAD IDEA, if you want to change something, try to improve or innovate, dont just try to clone the style of another game, especially not so stagnant and downright BORING as GW.

I don't even know what to say to this. It's a shining example of the worst of the cRPG community and it's obvious that I put far more thought into my post than you ever will.

You lost me the moment you brought guild wars into your post.

Learn to think critically about what you read.

[Jagen Claw]

What the heck are some of these people talking about?!I seriously doubt some of you have even been an archer!
Heres the situstion as I take it.....

Tincan:"Kherghit bow?Really?"
Archer shoots him 10 times
Tincan:"Oh no i lost 16 Hp!Not"

Archery needs a major boost.Plus I would perssonaly love to see More bows,Not to sure about more arrows but still
great idea.Oh and by the way I bet those people who complained about the archery were 2h spammers.But they shouldn't
change the archery animation I love it!

[Blondin]

No buff needed, archery is fine like it is now. It stops every noob that want to go easy mod and pew pew without risk. As i said every time, the problem is not archery but the numbers of archers that spam servers.

Adding more bows is a good idea, more variety is always good, every one can choose what fit best to his style or to the situation, but it needs lot of work to balance.
I'm not sure that if every bow has a specialization it would work very well, ppl in cRPG will choose only the best one with the best build...
Btw i guess it's impossible to have one bow pierce damage and others in cut (but may be not impossible for cmp)

[Siiem]

Learn to think critically about what you read.

I'm sorry, but this is an action game not an MMO. Where stereotype archers are powerfull hitters and melee just stand there and absorb damage. If archers continue with pierce it would be stupid and unfair. Atm archers who hit my sugarloaf helm I loose more then 50% hp, if it were to be pierce it would be instakill because pierce as far as I know is x3 to head. If something does 19 pierce plus added arrow damage, you got yourself one 1 hit killing machine. Learn to think yourself.

EDIT.
If there was a way to make helmets context sensetive like, if you hit a metal side of a helm without face protection it will do normal cut damage. But if it would hit an unprotected area it would be the dreaded x3 to head. But sadly I don't think that can be done in warband.

[Mouse]

I'm sorry, but this is an action game not an MMO. Where stereotype archers are powerfull hitters and melee just stand there and absorb damage. If archers continue with pierce it would be stupid and unfair. Atm archers who hit my sugarloaf helm I loose more then 50% hp, if it were to be pierce it would be instakill because pierce as far as I know is x3 to head. If something does 19 pierce plus added arrow damage, you got yourself one 1 hit killing machine. Learn to think yourself.

EDIT.
If there was a way to make helmets context sensetive like, if you hit a metal side of a helm without face protection it will do normal cut damage. But if it would hit an unprotected area it would be the dreaded x3 to head. But sadly I don't think that can be done in warband.

When I say Guild Wars, why are you incapable of separating one Interesting Idea out of that game and evaluating it on its own merits? Why do you think the mere mention of that game automatically means I want to turn cRPG into an MMORPG? You don't have to have played or even have liked the game to recognize how horizontal weapon balance is more interesting than vertical weapon balance.

And 26 pierce damage is a 1-hit killing machine? Really? Do you even know how this game works? You know that against black armor body shots would only do 1 more point of damage on average than the current strongbow with bodkins (31c)? It would actually be weaker against opponents with medium and light armor, and still weaker than other bows altogether (even against black armor) given that I proposed reducing the rate of fire.

So now it can kill plated knights with skillfully aimed shots to the head while other bows can't. But we made it slower than the other bows, just accurate enough for headshots (probably about where it is now, actually), and reduce the arrow speed to nerf it at longer ranges. Now it has an interesting unique role that no other bow has, but disadvantages that make another bow worth using under different circumstances. It will also be good for horse archers trying to take out tier 5+ horses, but worse against tier 2-4 horses and other archers (unless those silly archers wear black armor, I guess).

If you think that's a bad way to design a game, then we're going to have to just disagree. But I think if you carefully examine the best games out there you'll find that they are closer to what I am suggesting than the current state of cRPG where stat progression is almost entirely vertical.

If you don't think it's worth the effort to make this game better, that's fine too. Get bored and go find something else to play. I'm not even asking you to do the work, but I actually care about Warband. I made a lot of the first custom maps for ATS/cRPG, and I'm willing to put in some work to try and make it better over the long haul.

Also, this is not an meant to be an explicit balance thread. This is about making archery more interesting, diverse and fun. It's very annoying when people are like "archery doesn't need a buff, it's fine." Many of my suggestions are nerfs!

[IG_Saint]

"archery doesn't need a buff, it's fine." Many of my suggestions are nerfs!

Archery doesn't need a nerf, it's fine. 

Seriously though, this thread is full of talk about balance and buff/nerf archery, what I see little talk of is whether or not the idea, namely varied choice in bows vs lineair progression in bows, is any good. The numbers, the details, they're unimportant to that idea. And I'll say it again, I like the idea.

On a different, but related note, anybody else feel that archery is one of the slowest class to get going? Usually I'm at least breaking even anywhere from around lvl 12-15. With archery I'm struggling at 17. 5/6 shots to kill someone in light armour? In the time it takes me to shoot those I could have just walked over there and oneshotted him with my bastard sword. Or am I just failing?

[bruce]

On a different, but related note, anybody else feel that archery is one of the slowest class to get going?

Yes.... powerdraw gives 14% per level and bows and archery are balanced around higher PD rather then peasant levels, and therefore suck for low-levels.

Plus you need higher PD to use effective bows (which start with the khergit, but really get going with the strong / warbow - personally I used a 1x strongbow with 7 PD when I had my archer, satisfying damage output plus you get the added bonus of oneshotting most people with a melee weapon with 7 PS).

[Mouse]

Archery doesn't need a nerf, it's fine. 

Seriously though, this thread is full of talk about balance and buff/nerf archery, what I see little talk of is whether or not the idea, namely varied choice in bows vs lineair progression in bows, is any good. The numbers, the details, they're unimportant to that idea. And I'll say it again, I like the idea.

On a different, but related note, anybody else feel that archery is one of the slowest class to get going? Usually I'm at least breaking even anywhere from around lvl 12-15. With archery I'm struggling at 17. 5/6 shots to kill someone in light armour? In the time it takes me to shoot those I could have just walked over there and oneshotted him with my bastard sword. Or am I just failing?

When I get kicked out of ATS, I'm joining IG.

[Grey]

I don't even know what to say to this. It's a shining example of the worst of the cRPG community and it's obvious that I put far more thought into my post than you ever will.

Learn to think critically about what you read.

No, you may have put a lot of YOUR thought into your post. We dont all think at the same speed, obviously. It took me mere seconds to realise you have NO idea what warband is. Have a great day mate, I hope you like have a good time in GW2, since you are obviously going nowhere here.

[Gorath]

No, you may have put a lot of YOUR thought into your post. We dont all think at the same speed, obviously. It took me mere seconds to realise you have NO idea what warband is. Have a great day mate, I hope you like have a good time in GW2, since you are obviously going nowhere here.

FFS, you really don't understand english do you?  I mean this is just a huge reading comprehension fail right?  I'd hate to think you're just this stupid.
1)  Mouse has been playing Warband for a long long time, both native and cRPG.
2)  A game concept from one genre can be adapted and utilized by a different genre.
3)  We get it, you hate anything that's not an FPS.  Cool.  For the record, GW was one of the only MMO's to get PVP decent.
4)  Every game is a clickfest.  If you have a matrix chair and the ability to jack into the game then please share, otherwise  @ you sir.
5)  If you had read what he was talking about you would have seen that there was nary a buff anywhere in his thoughts, only redesigns and nerfs.

And in conclusion: 

(click to show/hide)

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[Grey]

FFS, you really don't understand english do you?  I mean this is just a huge reading comprehension fail right?  I'd hate to think you're just this stupid.
1)  Mouse has been playing Warband for a long long time, both native and cRPG.
2)  A game concept from one genre can be adapted and utilized by a different genre.
3)  We get it, you hate anything that's not an FPS.  Cool.  For the record, GW was one of the only MMO's to get PVP decent.
4)  Every game is a clickfest.  If you have a matrix chair and the ability to jack into the game then please share, otherwise  @ you sir.
5)  If you had read what he was talking about you would have seen that there was nary a buff anywhere in his thoughts, only redesigns and nerfs.

And in conclusion: 

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 

No, I like LOADS of games. GW just happens to be really shit. And the pvp sucked. Also, your not trying to tell me you still play Warband with a mouse and keyboard?? Most of us got our neural links sorted YEARS ago....loser.

http://www.slipperybrick.com/2008/08/the-apple-ithink-concept/


You have great day Gorath, you!


ANYWAY: My point, which the OP ignored in his hurry to get UBERDEFENSIVE, was that there is NOT a linear progression among the bows. In stats, sure, in usage, NO. I have a lvl 30 archer with PD 3 and a hunting bow. He is MEGA accurate and can run away very fast. Then I have more normal 18/18 archer, with a warbow, that can 1hit clothies.

Since NO archer is going to effective untill he has approx 100 wpf and AT LEAST PD3, theres no usage realistically for the low end bows unless its for pure accuracy. The slow arrow travel from these bows is the drawback. The game HAS been made varied, and is not linear, unless you buy each bow as you level up. But this is a silly method that wastes your time and money, and will NOT help you get kills, will just make you a minor nuisance untill lvl 15-18.