Let's talk about the 2h mace

[Bobthehero]

I totally disagree with this actually. I find that I am WAY more effective without a shield.

Gotta agree with you there.

[Draggon]

I totally disagree with this actually. I find that I am WAY more effective without a shield.

About that you would not be shitting...
I've tried 3 different sword/board builds and all of them have been much less effective than my polearm, 2h, or even straight-up 1h builds.


There's nothing wrong with the 2h mace though.  I've been both hit by it and have used it.  It's short as fuck so it's hard to hit anyone with it unless you're right on top of them.  For me, it makes a great backup weapon vs fast-ass 1h-ers.  However, you're still at a disadvantage though due to the lack of reach.  The knockdown simply makes up for that.

[Jarlek]

About that you would not be shitting...
I've tried 3 different sword/board builds and all of them have been much less effective than my polearm, 2h, or even straight-up 1h builds.


There's nothing wrong with the 2h mace though.  I've been both hit by it and have used it.  It's short as fuck so it's hard to hit anyone with it unless you're right on top of them.  For me, it makes a great backup weapon vs fast-ass 1h-ers.  However, you're still at a disadvantage though due to the lack of reach.  The knockdown simply makes up for that.

It's just as long as a normal 1h mace... and the animations favour it...

[RamsesXXIIX]

You mean a shield that slows you down 50%, reduces your weapon speed and decreases the angle you can block in?

Yeah, you're right. That really is such a huge OP bonus...

/sarcasm.
Look, with alll the shield nerfs, not having a shield is now just as good as having one. When you have a shield you gain the ability to block projectiles, block couches and block from multiple directions. But, you also get reduced movement speed, reduced weapon speed and reduced block angle and reduced feinting potential. Some of these things are more important than others, but that varies for different persons. The point is, "you can use it with a shield" is no longer a valid argument because shields aren't powerfull anymore. You can still use them for what you need shields for, but the penalties for using one is big enough to make someone without a shield and with a shield equally effective.

PS: The 2h mace can be used with a shield so you fail anyway.

Wow, wow. Slow down before you start lying.

What tells you that using a shield slows you down 50% and reduces your weapon speed? As far as I know, both of these are untrue. The speed rating of a shield determines how fast you can move it from default standing position to blocking position as far as I know. It shouldn't reduce your weapon speed nor your feinting potential.

Furthermore, saying he's failing when you say the 2h mace can be used with a shield seems odd. Since it is a 2h weapon, it suffers a 35% damage and speed decrease, resulting in both speed and damage far lower than that of a 1h mace.

[Jarlek]

Wow, wow. Slow down before you start lying.

What tells you that using a shield slows you down 50% and reduces your weapon speed? As far as I know, both of these are untrue. The speed rating of a shield determines how fast you can move it from default standing position to blocking position as far as I know. It shouldn't reduce your weapon speed nor your feinting potential.

Furthermore, saying he's failing when you say the 2h mace can be used with a shield seems odd. Since it is a 2h weapon, it suffers a 35% damage and speed decrease, resulting in both speed and damage far lower than that of a 1h mace.

The 50% was an exaggeration. That much should have been obvious. And yes, it does slow your swings down. As for feinting. Anyone can tell you that a guy with a shield is much easier to read than a guy without, when he is feinting. This is because of the obvious position of the shield, especially when you tap block to change attack direction. It is obvious that you canceled the swing and did something else.

And yes he is failing when he says a that the obvious advantage of the 1h maces compared to the 2h mace (actually a 1h/2h weapon), because that weapon can ALSO be used with a shield. Yeah, they suffer a roughly 30% speed and damage reduction (differs from weapon to weapon, also applies to polearms), but they can still be used with a shield.

[RamsesXXIIX]

The 50% was an exaggeration. That much should have been obvious. 1
And yes, it does slow your swings down. 2
As for feinting. Anyone can tell you that a guy with a shield is much easier to read than a guy without, when he is feinting. This is because of the obvious position of the shield, especially when you tap block to change attack direction. It is obvious that you canceled the swing and did something else.3

And yes he is failing when he says a that the obvious advantage of the 1h maces compared to the 2h mace (actually a 1h/2h weapon), because that weapon can ALSO be used with a shield. Yeah, they suffer a roughly 30% speed and damage reduction (differs from weapon to weapon, also applies to polearms), but they can still be used with a shield. 4

1: It is not only an exaggeration, its wrong. Evidence: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.msg2872758.html#msg2872758
(Its myth number 4)
The only movement speed malus you get is the standard weight penalty.

2: It does? According to the thread I just linked, it doesn't. (Myth number 3)

3: I agree that the larger size of the shield can make it harder, but I still find blocking good feinters with shields harder to block than polearms for example.

4: They don't suffer a roughly 30 % percentage, they suffer 35 %.
Lets look at the mace with the 35% malus:

(click to show/hide)

Mace
weapon length: 70
weight: 2.8
difficulty: 8
speed rating: 65 (99 originally)
weapon length: 70
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 20 blunt (30 blunt originally)
slots: 1
Knockdown

4,225 gold

I don't know about you, but if it was me and I wanted to fight with a shield, I'd take the one-handed mace.

[owens]

Maybe the other maces that cost three times as much and are far slower and use two slots should get a buff?


It is bullshit that a weapon so short and small in comparison does only 3 less damage than its longer, heavier and more expensive cousins.

[Jarlek]

1: It is not only an exaggeration, its wrong. Evidence: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.msg2872758.html#msg2872758
(Its myth number 4)
The only movement speed malus you get is the standard weight penalty.

2: It does? According to the thread I just linked, it doesn't. (Myth number 3)

3: I agree that the larger size of the shield can make it harder, but I still find blocking good feinters with shields harder to block than polearms for example.

4: They don't suffer a roughly 30 % percentage, they suffer 35 %.
Lets look at the mace with the 35% malus:

(click to show/hide)

Mace
weapon length: 70
weight: 2.8
difficulty: 8
speed rating: 65 (99 originally)
weapon length: 70
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 20 blunt (30 blunt originally)
slots: 1
Knockdown

4,225 gold

I don't know about you, but if it was me and I wanted to fight with a shield, I'd take the one-handed mace.

1. Ok, now you are being retarded. I never claimed the shield slowed you down because it's a shield. I said it slows you down just by having it (in the hand or on back, just the same), because they are bullshit heavy compared to everything else. Shields are have a very high weight, which slows you down a lot. It's not uncommon for shielders to move 2/3 or less compared to people with the same armour but a bigger weapon. This is annoying and unfair.

2. Try to use a slow speed, then try a 100 speed shield. The difference isn't the biggest one, but it is there. My guess is that this is something that was removed/changed/reworked in a version after that test in the thread you linked to, was made.

3. Thank you. And the good feinters with shield actually use this disadvantage as an advantage, since people don't expect people with shields to feint. It actually is possible to feint without making the shield go in a full block (in front of you, the obvious sign that the shielder is feinting), but it's easy and doesn't work all the time. Still can be used as a great surprise move, the same way the katana stab can be used to caught your opponent off guard.

4. Really? I remember waltF4's posts that he mentions it's not exactly a 35% reduction for every weapon, and that it is related to the speed of the weapon. Something along the shortened spear receives less of a nerf than the Heavy Lance and something. Can't find the thread, though...

Regardless. The 2h mace is still too good compared to the 1h versions. The reason we started to discuss shields was because of the most derpiest post made about "lulz it canz use a shieldz so it's so OP and good comparedz to it!" Even though the 2h mace can also be used with a shield. Anyway, as been proven here; having a shield is equally usefull as not having one, so the 2h mace should be equal in effectiveness-to-cost as the 1h maces.

[Camaris]

Regardless. The 2h mace is still too good compared to the 1h versions. The reason we started to discuss shields was because of the most derpiest post made about "lulz it canz use a shieldz so it's so OP and good comparedz to it!" Even though the 2h mace can also be used with a shield. Anyway, as been proven here; having a shield is equally usefull as not having one, so the 2h mace should be equal in effectiveness-to-cost as the 1h maces.

lol. Im totally with you. We make both the same but if you use 1h mace without shield you get a 35% penalty.

[rustyspoon]

2. Try to use a slow speed, then try a 100 speed shield. The difference isn't the biggest one, but it is there. My guess is that this is something that was removed/changed/reworked in a version after that test in the thread you linked to, was made.

Just wanted to jump in here, because this is a common misconception.

Shields DO NOT slow down your swing speed. Tested it a long time ago. However, shields DO slow down your footwork, which makes a HUGE difference in when your weapon connects with your opponent. So, the weight of your shield CAN affect when your weapon connects, but it has NO bearing on your swing speed.

Also, shield speed affects when your shield blocks, but has nothing to do with the blocking animation. A fast shield will block before the shield is fully raised. A slow shield blocks AFTER the shield is fully raised.

[Vibe]

Light shield = faster blocking and more stun from heavy weapons. Does not affect swing speed.

[justme]

just make it 2 slot weapon, and problem solved

[KaleLord]

just make it 2 slot weapon, and problem solved

Agreed

[B3RS3RK]

The Mace is very fine.

It is a really good Sideweapon for Archers/Crossbowman if they decide not to take a second quiver or pack of bolts, which is fine imo.

Any dedicated Melee Guy can kill them easily because they are so lightly armored and have no WPF in 2h(Mostly).They are still fast, but the mace is short and you are dedicated Melee, so fuck it.


I only find it fair that Archers and Crossbowmen with relatively few shots gain a higher chance of killing in Melee.

What I agree with is that the Mace is a Beast in skilled hands.A Very skilled player playing with the Mace oftenly tends to pwn withit everything he comes onto.But still the mace is very short so thats the disadvantage.

Also, Any Weapon is a Beast in very skilled hands.

[BlackMilk]

The Mace is very fine.

It is a really good Sideweapon for Archers/Crossbowman if they decide not to take a second quiver or pack of bolts, which is fine imo.

Any dedicated Melee Guy can kill them easily because they are so lightly armored and have no WPF in 2h(Mostly).They are still fast, but the mace is short and you are dedicated Melee, so fuck it.


I only find it fair that Archers and Crossbowmen with relatively few shots gain a higher chance of killing in Melee.

What I agree with is that the Mace is a Beast in skilled hands.A Very skilled player playing with the Mace oftenly tends to pwn withit everything he comes onto.But still the mace is very short so thats the disadvantage.

Also, Any Weapon is a Beast in very skilled hands.

Do you know Merc_DaveUKR?