Poll

Who is the most attractive woman and/or feminine male in the cRPG community?

Trippin; the Adonis of the cRPG community.
Balton; with his washboard fat rolls positioned to look like muscle.
Gorath; the merciless wife beater in which stems from his sexual inadequacy issues.
chadz; the guy who thinks that Trippin is funny.
Draedan; the attention seeking autist of whom is sad that no one cares that he is playing the game again.
1slander; the guy who wishes that he was a sexy woman, like Trippin.
Goretooth_ATS; the 600lb glutton of whom grinds 23 hours a day in order to get more heirlooms on his +23 bec de corbin.

Author Topic: Ask a girl anything  (Read 15358 times)

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Offline Alex_C

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2011, 12:10:36 am »
It's a retarded "movement."

In what way? Also, in what way are "" required?

No, Alex. I'm talking about hunter-gatherer societies.

But women can't, in practice (or theory), to have as many sexual intercourses as men. Could you explain why other species with pack-behaviour have evolved to 1 alpha male-> multiple females, beta males hardly if ever get to mate? I have no reason to suspect humans were any different, do you?

Firstly, could you explain to me why no other species with pack-behaviour have developed televisions? I have no reason to suspect humans are any different, do you?

Secondly, the very fact that women and men do not stick to the behaviour which you have outlined is surely a reason to suspect that humans are different, no?

Thirdly, could you actually cite the examples of 'other pack-behaviour' species in which what you've described is the case? I sure hope that it is indeed every other species, or it'd seem like your argument was pure speculation.

Offline Xant

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2011, 12:20:57 am »
In what way? Also, in what way are "" required?
Way off-topic. Not that this isn't, but that'd be off-topic of the off-topic.

Firstly, could you explain to me why no other species with pack-behaviour have developed televisions? I have no reason to suspect humans are any different, do you?

Secondly, the very fact that women and men do not stick to the behaviour which you have outlined is surely a reason to suspect that humans are different, no?

Thirdly, could you actually cite the examples of 'other pack-behaviour' species in which what you've described is the case? I sure hope that it is indeed every other species, or it'd seem like your argument was pure speculation.

Yes, I can. Because of human intelligence. Humans did not pop out with televisions. Are you intentionally ignoring what I said before? It sure looks like it. I specifically said it does not apply to modern day, and this is what I was referring to when I said our genetics do not evolve as fast as our society/technology. Evolution is relatively slow. Our basic instincts are still very much like they were when our intelligence was below the levels of chimps. Because of our intelligence, we are no longer just forced to behave as we are wired.

They did. They do not, anymore, for reasons stated above. Well, actually. This discussion started because humans still show signs of this behavior.

Okay, every pack species I checked. Apes, reindeers, dogs, llamas, wolves, oxen, etc...
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Offline BD_Guard_Bane

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2011, 12:34:04 am »
As women get pregnant, their ability to provide for themselves greatly decreases for 40 weeks. They also have harder time running from predators and doing other physical work. They cannot reproduce while they are pregnant. After that, they have a child to look after for a long, long time before the child grows enough to be self-sufficient to some extent. Because every time women have sex, they have a good chance of getting pregnant, and because every pregnancy is a huge commitment from the woman, they'd want to find the best possible partner. I.e, one with the best genetics, one who can provide and protect for them and their child. I'm not aware of how the early Homo Sapiens/Homo Erectus reacted to the children of other males of their desired/current female partner, but some species have been known to kill all offspring that isn't theirs when they find a new female for themselves.

For men, sex is a matter of minutes at most. After that, they can move on; the more females they can impregnate, the better. There was no alimony back when our genetics were written. The more impregnations, the better chances for males to get offspring that pass on their genes. The more offspring, the better chances that some of them are fully functional (no retardations or mutations.) There are many, many species where an alpha male has the monopoly on all the women; for the reasons mentioned before. Competition is bad news for everyone. The alpha, statistically, is the strongest and finest specimen around. When a stronger one appears, they become the alpha and voilá, the circle begins anew. So: For males, the more the better, no disadvantages.

Modern day technology largely invalidates all this. Abortions, condoms, society, alimony, day after pills..

tl;dr: what Balton said.

And Alex, I did not insult an opposing POV by my stab at feminism. As far as I know, Bane isn't a feminist.

I am a feminist :D

But it's ok, I wasn't insulted.

Thanks for your arguments, they were interesting. However, I do have a few things to say about them:

As women get pregnant, their ability to provide for themselves greatly decreases for 40 weeks.

Greatly is an exaggeration. While pregnant, you can do what you did before you were pregnant. There is a period of about one month or a little less where certain things become more difficult (depending on the person and the size of the baby), but the only thing likely to result in miscarriage is something that would generally be bad for you if you weren't pregnant as well (such as falling down stairs).

They also have harder time running from predators and doing other physical work.

I'm pretty certain that any animal that can hunt and eat humans can't be outrun by a human. I don't think that running is one of the strong points of human evolution - most animals that are dangerous to us can outrun us.

After that, they have a child to look after for a long, long time before the child grows enough to be self-sufficient to some extent

I thought we weren't talking about modern times? This is a modern bias imposed on our ancestors. I very much doubt that the woman alone would have to look after the child. In fact, it was far more likely that the whole tribe (including of course, but not limited to, the sexual partner) helped with raising and looking after the child.
The idea of the family unit is a very modern one, and certainly came about after the invention/development of agriculture. If you think about it, it's strange that we split up into pairs and the responsibility of looking after offspring is the couple's responsibility alone (and of course, more seen as the woman's responsibility). If we're talking species survival as a motive (wanting children to survive), the best way is for everybody to help.

Because every time women have sex, they have a good chance of getting pregnant, and because every pregnancy is a huge commitment from the woman, they'd want to find the best possible partner. I.e, one with the best genetics, one who can provide and protect for them and their child. I'm not aware of how the early Homo Sapiens/Homo Erectus reacted to the children of other males of their desired/current female partner, but some species have been known to kill all offspring that isn't theirs when they find a new female for themselves.

I completely agree that the woman would want to look for the best possible partner (if we're assuming evolutionary theory here), but isn't your argument also one that can be used for men looking for the best possible partner?
As you say the male will be providing and protecting them and their child, so wouldn't he want a partner who is 'worth' (in terms of evolutionary theory) providing for and protecting?
Why is it just women who are doing the selection? And how is what they are selecting for (someone strong, healthy, fit, smart, knowledgeable, sociable etc etc) different from what the male is selecting for? Surely they're both doing it?

While its true that in some species the male kills offspring (when he isn't sure they're his - sometimes they accidentally kill their own), for example in lions, I'm not sure that the behaviour of a pack carnivore can be applied to that of a social omnivore.

For men, sex is a matter of minutes at most. After that, they can move on; the more females they can impregnate, the better. There was no alimony back when our genetics were written. The more impregnations, the better chances for males to get offspring that pass on their genes.

This would be true if we were monkeys or apes. But we aren't. Do you really think that human social interaction (ideas about fidelity and jealousy for example) were any different back then? I imagine people have always had more or less the same social constructs, the same ideas about love etc. I think its a little simplistic to assume we had the same social sexual behaviour as apes. My point is that I don't think it's true that men could just move on - the same as now, there were probably social conventions and rules that prevented that to an extent.

Anyway, so the goal here is to pass on the genetics? Why isn't that a goal for women too? I don't understand why the male is so eager to do this, and the female isn't? Surely they both want to? In which case, the woman should sleep around as well, in order to get as many different children by different parents as possible, so that the chances of good genetics are higher?

And, don't you think that (as you stated earlier - the male is apparently providing and protecting) humans are smart enough to figure out that expending energy looking after one set of children has more gain in the end (more chance of their survival) than running around and impregnating everybody, then having to just hope that some of them survive?


There are many, many species where an alpha male has the monopoly on all the women; for the reasons mentioned before. Competition is bad news for everyone. The alpha, statistically, is the strongest and finest specimen around. When a stronger one appears, they become the alpha and voilá, the circle begins anew.

Comparison with other species is a little dubious, since there are species where the female eats the male after sex, and others where the society is matriarchal.
The biggest difference between humans and other species in this area is that human males don't compete for mates. In all the species where this does happen, males (once they reach adolescence) leave the tribe or group and live alone, growing, then return and compete for control over the group, or another group. For this reason, males die a lot (they have to live on their own). So the male to female ratio is very different. All the males in the group will be too young to have sex, or will be the alpha male, or are too weak to leave the tribe so they accept the dominance of the alpha male.

Humans don't work like this. Humans don't compete in the same way - when it comes to survival, they co-operate. The male to female ratio in any group is roughly 50/50. There isn't much competition for mates, for females or for males. So the whole social dynamic that you're infering from other species - that men try to dominate a group and impregnate many women, while women have to be selective and worry that pregnancy/raising a child will be hard, just doesn't work for humans. Women have the whole group to help them out with raising the child (and obviously not all the women are pregnant all the time, so there are many people to help with hunting etc while that one person is resting for a few weeks), and men don't have to compete for mates.

But anyway, some interesting arguments.


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Offline AdNecrias

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2011, 12:38:00 am »
Bane the bookwriitter.
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Offline BD_Guard_Bane

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2011, 12:54:33 am »
Bane the bookwriitter.

I was waiting for a pizza to arrive ;)

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Offline Ishar

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2011, 12:59:35 am »
I think many feminists would argue that there is a lot to think about in that statement.
Since I'm not in the kitchen right now, I'm out of their reach.

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tl;dr: what Balton said.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2011, 01:02:01 am »
Climbing is a human strong point though, and was our main way of avoiding predators. Running for a tree, and then climbing it, would be harder for someone pregnant. Pretty minor point, though.

Well, I suspect humans were monogamous (like f.ex gray wolves) if the human population was scarce. However, we'd have more genes from the bigger groups of humans than the loners. I'm not really talking of a family unit as of such, though. What I meant by "After that, they have a child to look after for a long, long time before the child grows enough to be self-sufficient to some extent" is that by default, it's that. That's why they seek the strongest possible group/male (goes hand in hand, often - population density plays a part again, of course, but generally speaking it'd still work the same) for protection/help. Especially since the alpha is the one doing the impregnating, what choice does the female have? Sure, you can go around sleeping with betas and whoever you can find, but that's very unwise and you'll get left alone to die very, very fast. It just makes sense for survival to stick with one alpha male and his pack.

It's not the same, because the males run the packs. They can protect multiple females and their children. Or- they can just impregnate a woman and leave them. It doesn't matter - that's the point! They lose nothing. There is no commitment. Worst that can happen? The female and her children die. Okay. The male wasted a minute - best that happens is that the female survives. It's a win-win, whereas a female has to commit. And I was thinking of lions, yes. Not sure about other species and wikipedia articles are pretty lacking usually.

That depends how far back we are going. Fidelity, love and jealousy are born out of basic instincts.. the very same we are discussing. They've all become much more refined, of course, as our intelligence grew and we started getting manipulated more by outside sources. The very same intelligence that elevated us above other animals also can give birth to some really wicked ideas. I doubt there were social conventions or such that would make men think twice, quite the opposite... one could argue that the "man sleeps around is a king, woman sleeps around is a whore" thing is evidence for this. As to the last point of yours to my quote: I've said it before in this post with different words, but... you can do both. You can impregnate everything that moves on two legs and still look after one set of children. That is exactly the point I am trying to make. Women do not have the same freedom, due to both their physiology and their social status.

Hence, I've tried to compare the human species to others that are faintly similar - spiders eating their mates have really nothing to do with humans. The key points would be 1) being a pack animal, 1.1) being a mammal, 2) the males being stronger and dominant, 3) similar pregnancy/mating times.



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Offline Tristan

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2011, 01:09:20 am »
Bane the brain...

I agree with you though!
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Offline Elmetiacos

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2011, 01:40:52 am »
This post fails so hard.
We have a dude thinking a troll is asking a bunch of other trolls to ask him questions as if any of it is serious....
This troll fails so hard. We have a troll thinking a girl is asking.... no, wait... thinking a troll is asking a bunch of girls... no, wait... hang on... we have a girl asking a troll if a bunch of other girls... no, no... ah, nevermind.
The word is "anyway" not "anyways". You are not Gabby Hayes.
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Offline Tristan

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2011, 01:50:37 am »
Well the troll ammo was good enough for it to last at least 5 pages?
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Offline Quirian

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2011, 02:05:29 am »
Me likez dat avatar of yours!

Offline BD_Guard_Bane

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2011, 02:20:31 am »
(click to show/hide)

Hmm. Ok, apologies for doing this again, but it will be a long post (its an area that interests me a lot):

Firstly, on the climbing - it isn't such a minor point. It would have certainly been very useful for getting away from certain predators. Again, the problem is that most animals that are capable of hunting and eating a human, are easily better at climbing than a human is.
Big cats and bears can all climb better than we can. I suppose with a large headstart you could get high enough up a tree that a wolf or some other large canine couldn't follow, but they can move very fast and can run up a tree (my dog does it all the time) if its at even a slight angle.

I think my main point here with the physical side of survival, is that humans are mediocre at everything. We're weak compared to almost every animal our size and many smaller animals, we're slow compared to most animals, and we're crap at climbing compared to a lot of animals. We can't swim very well (cats do it better and they loathe water), we don't have any natural weapons (we have herbivore teeth, and no claws, and our skin isn't very tough, we don't have any venoms or poisons etc etc). We have less muscle as a percentage of body weight than most other mammals, even herbivores (pigs have more muscle than we do!).

For survival, humans can't play the same game as other animals do. So we re-invented the game, and made different rules. Survival for humans is about being clever, not being able to chase down a deer or wrestle with a bear. We make tools, and plan tactics for hunting, and work out how other animals think and react so we can intimidate them or fool them into not attacking us.
And later of course we worked out how to use animals to provide labour and security. And after that we worked out how to breed animals and plants for the best possible benefit to us.

This is why we don't follow the same pattern of social interaction as other species. Human strength is only impressive when compared with other humans. To every other animal our size, we're puny.

There isn't an alpha male in human tribes. It isn't (and wasn't) how it works. In a gorilla tribe, the alpha male is actually capable of fending off predators (not that gorillas have many), and so he has a role beyond just fighting other males.
An excellent example is lions. The male lion is crap at hunting (his mane makes it difficult for him), but he can stay at home while the females hunt, and protect the cubs. Since he is larger than the females, and his mane makes him look larger still, he can intimidate anything that wants to kill or eat the children, and has more of a chance in a fight against anything big enough to be hunting lion cubs (buffalo for example). He has a proper role beyond just fighting other males.

In a human tribe, there are many males. There isn't just one who's duty is protecting the children because he is the strongest. Predators who see humans as potential prey aren't going to be intimidated by a guy who is a few inches taller and a bit more built than all those other puny humans.

A lot of evolutionary theory is concerned with the conservation of energy - you need to consume more energy than you expend, or at least balance it. If all the human males in a tribe spent their time competing with other males, there would be no energy to do other socially productive things (hunting, building etc). It works for lions, because the male lion has very little else to do, and the pride isn't full of other male lions, so he doesn't have to compete that often (and also only in mating season).

Another very important point is that when we talk about females of the human species, we aren't talking about a baby production machine. If a woman dies, the whole tribe has lost (as well as potential future children) a hugely valuable asset to the tribe's survival. The women contribute to the tribe's survival in the same way as the men do - hunting, making tools, gathering food, etc etc.
Division of labour based on sex is a luxury that comes later with agriculture and settled tribes - it isn't possible in a hunter gatherer society.
A human male loses a huge amount if a woman dies (the whole tribe does), even more so than if the children die.

The social conventions I was referring to are things like marriage. Every current human culture (and historically most human cultures) has some version of a ritual that is a similar version of marriage. Not only that, but other conventions such as familial interest and protectiveness about their children's partners.

Also, its a bit difficult to talk about the growth of intelligence in terms of evolutionary theory. Intelligence is very difficult to define, to begin with. And even more difficult to relate to biology or anatomy. The hunter/gatherer tribes that we are discussing were of the same species as us, and therefore had the same level of intelligence.


I've said it before in this post with different words, but... you can do both. You can impregnate everything that moves on two legs and still look after one set of children. That is exactly the point I am trying to make. Women do not have the same freedom, due to both their physiology and their social status

But this assumes that there is only one male in the group. The male can only do that if a) the other women don't want him to look after their children as well and b) the other males who are partners with the other women don't get angry at having to look after children that aren't theirs

This would only be possible if there were only one male. As I've said before, human tribe population is 50/50 female to male ratio. There isn't an alpha male, it's impossible with so many other males around. If there were, the other males would work together and kill him.

To clarify, I mean an alpha male in a sexual sense. Its impossible with a 50/50 ratio. The supposed alpha male simply can't make sure that the other males aren't sleeping with 'his' women, and wouldn't be able to fight or intimidate all the other males (assuming that they want to pass on their own genes as much as he does his).

This is ignoring the role of women in the scenario of course. They would have selected mates whom they preferred, and the alpha male system wouldn't work for their selection (they want to pass on their genes too, so other women's children are competition for this, in the same way that other men's children are for men).

To sum up my point:

Humans are social animals. Survival depends on co-operation, not conflict. The male/female ratio means that males can't compete for mates in the same way that other animals do. The evolutionary strengths of humans are not physical (everything else is stronger and more dangerous), they are intellectual and co-operative. Having an alpha male system in the human species doesn't make sense, and is counter productive to the species.
Essentially we don't work (physically or socially) in remotely the same way as any other species. The alpha male thing is an observed phenomena in other species that was later applied to humans. It fit in with the theories of many social Darwinists (the worst kind of darwinist).

Your last point: 1) We're not a pack animal in the same sense that other animals are. Our internal social structures work very differently.
1.1) true
2) This is debatable, but the argument for it involves an argument against social and biological evolution, so it'd take a long time
3) Most animals don't have monthly cycles of maximum/minimum fertility, they have a mating season.

 


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Offline Quirian

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2011, 02:25:30 am »
 :shock:

Offline Tristan

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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2011, 03:08:27 am »
I'd love to be able to source quote this, but just in support of Bane's argument I saw a study that actually showed females had equally maybe even larger "lust" for extra-maritial affairs especially when they are most fertile. Remember that often when a man commits infidelity so does his partner.
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Re: Ask a girl anything
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2011, 03:29:57 am »
Message for all the troll around here:

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Duck and cover! This thread is getting wayyyyy to serious!  :shock:
A lot of people in the NA community know that Dach rages and in the process of his uncontrollable rage, he tends to kick people.

You've been warned! :twisted: