Steel Pick (continued discussion)

[Rextard]

Um, morningstar may have unbalanced, but its also the only piercing weapon other than some polarms with piercing stabs that has a bonus against shields.

[Kalam]

If you have more of an issue with picks over other weapons, there's something wrong with the way you're playing.

[Kherr]

Weapon stats have been posted multiple times.  Look at it compared to a morningstar.

Yep, but imho that's not the point. You have two level of balancing.

At first you have to ensure that no weapon class is overpowered compared to the other classes. So e.g. you have to ensure there are not only archer, but also cav, 2h, 1h,... Each class must be viable.

2nd you should have a balance within the weapon class. There should be no weapon within a weapon class which is used significantly more than an other weapon of the same class. You could see that problem with the sword of cookies... a lot of 2h used that.

So it is not possible to compare the 1h stats with the 2h stats. We have to compare the steel pick with other 1h weapons. So the question is... are there more significant kills with the steel pick than with other 1h weapons. And I say no.

[[ptx]]

Steel pick model is just so friggin thin and tiny... such a pain to block >_<
Especially, if it is hidden behind a huscarl shield.

[Z_E_N]

As mentioned, anyone with a crushthrough weapon is an easy counter for the steel pick.

I typically use 2 weapons on my 1h + shield.  One is the Sarranid Cav sword (because I'm a cav and it has good range).  The range on it lets me surprise overhead chambered crushthroughs like the barmace and great maul.  People that try to keep me at range (long 2h or poles) I also use against because they are in the sweet spot of the weapon.  However it has a severe disadvantage of always whiffing at extreme close range (even with 8 PS).

Thus, the Steel pick!  I would say its a very powerful extreme close range weapon, as it has a fast left-to-right animation (that usually hits the head), and it never whiffs because the sweet spot is pressed right up against them.  If I'm fighting against a 1h+shield I use this weapon because of it's consistancy.

I would never say its overpowered though.  Stats wise it looks great, but the range limitation makes it really hard to hit any backpedaling target.

[Patricia]

Recently started a sword pick and boarder using the steel pick, and I'd say it's not OP.

The reach is TERRIBLE, it's really terrible, before asking to nerf a weapon try it for a bit, anyone who's backpedaling can pretty much just dance while hitting your shield and never having to block the steel pick due to the toothpick reach of it.

[zagibu]

Yep, everything below 70 reach is very hard to fight with. If you don't believe it, pick up a warhammer on the battlefield. 5 more length really makes a lot of difference in this range.

[LordRichrich]

I used to run round with mail, war hammerand a shield with the SINGLE purpose of taking out tincans
It worked amazingly well
I don't find range to be an issue with the warhammer, and therefore other short 1h weapons
If the enemy back pedals, find a new enenmy
If he breaks your shield, learn to manual block
If he out reaches you, press him

There's a solution to all the anti-nerf the picks
I think it needs a nerf tbh. Not much, maybe a little less length or speed
Speed because if you're holding a weapon such as a pick, you HAVE to hold it in a certain way to make sure the tip hits them
This would mean a constant grip readjust before each strike. So take 1 speed off

[zagibu]

And swords don't need grip adjusts? I didn't know you can slice through flesh with the flat side of a blade...

[Diomedes]

I used to run round with mail, war hammerand a shield with the SINGLE purpose of taking out tincans
It worked amazingly well
I don't find range to be an issue with the warhammer, and therefore other short 1h weapons
If the enemy back pedals, find a new enenmy
If he breaks your shield, learn to manual block
If he out reaches you, press him

There's a solution to all the anti-nerf the picks
I think it needs a nerf tbh. Not much, maybe a little less length or speed
Speed because if you're holding a weapon such as a pick, you HAVE to hold it in a certain way to make sure the tip hits them
This would mean a constant grip readjust before each strike. So take 1 speed off

This.
 

And swords don't need grip adjusts? I didn't know you can slice through flesh with the flat side of a blade...

Not even close to comparable.
 

Yep, everything below 70 reach is very hard to fight with. If you don't believe it, pick up a warhammer on the battlefield. 5 more length really makes a lot of difference in this range.

I use a warhammer.  I initially realized an incongruity in the steel pick when I compared it to the warhammer.

We have to compare the steel pick with other 1h weapons. So the question is... are there more significant kills with the steel pick than with other 1h weapons. And I say no.

You're wrong.  Compare stats between it an the warhammer.  Anecdotal evidence of many kills is weak evidence when it comes to balancing.  It's easy to find a lot of kills if you just swoop in for killshots or go after less skilled players. 

[Kherr]

Ok, lets compare it with the warhammer:
Steel Pick
weight 2.25
requirement 12
spd rtng 100
weapon length 64
swing damage 33, pierce
thrust damage 0 pierce

Warhammer
weight 3
requirement 15
spd rtng 99
weapon length 65
swing damage 31, blunt
thrust damage 18 pierce
Knockdown

The steel pick has 2 more damage and is one point faster. But the warhammer has a little bit more range and - very important - it has thrust and and knockdown. So I dont see that the steel pick is better than the warhammer... imho the warhammer is even more usable and so should be more expensive... and... it is more expensive. Also the warhammer has more weight so the stun with 1h blocking should be not so bad.

Anecdotal evidence of many kills is weak evidence when it comes to balancing.  It's easy to find a lot of kills if you just swoop in for killshots or go after less skilled players.

Do you think its weapon dependend whether player are trying to find easy kills? Killing player is the goal... imho there is no better measuring stick.

Whatever... we will see. I heirloomed the pick and i will stick at the pick.


Edit:
Why do I use it then? It looks nasty and I like the sound if I hit somebody.
I used the warhammer about 3 months as primary weapon last fall. So I know both quite well. I cannot say which weapon feels faster in normal usage. I usually use str builds... so i dont optimize speed. What I really miss is the thrust.
The knockdown was very cool, but you have to do a fast up-down swing to hit the opponent the 2nd time. If you get used to it you can often do a very quick kill.

Edit 2:
There are 2 different damage types... so let me add this:
warhammer 31 blunt against 40 armor with 18 str and 6 ps and 140 wpf deals in average 29.5 damage
steel pick 33 pierce against 40 armor with 18 str and 6 ps and 140 wpf deals in average 31 damage
So the steel pick has less than 2 points more effective damage than the warhammer.

[Gorath]

If the enemy back pedals, find a new enenmy
If he out reaches you, press him

Aren't these two the start of a vicious loop?  Everyone out reaches you with a short 1her, so you press.  Therefore they will backpedal while spamming your shield.  You move on to a new enemy, they outreach you.  Cycle starts anew.

I dunno.  LIQUOR AND WHORES!

[Kherr]

@Diomedes
I just remembered you already wrote a nice post about the warhammer ( http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1814.msg28329.html#msg28329 ).

I have a question about

Warhammers do the most against armour but don't do x3 against the head, which is the main target for most 1h strikes. 

3x against head? I did not know that.... very interesting. Only pierce against head or are there more special damage type against hit region combinations?
What's your source?

[Diomedes]

My source is from asking around in-game.  I don't have a particular file or authority to back it up more than that though.  To be clear, for future reference, my understanding is:

Blunt does the most damage against armour and X2 when striking the head
Pierce does a lot of damage against armour and x3 when striking the head


Can anybody else confirm the headshot damage?

[Vexus]

Blunt is the type of damage which deals the most and correct x2 to the head.

Pierce deals a little less than blunt but yes x3 to the head.