Rebalance ranged, hybrids, and specialization

[Gorath]

Wait how are hybrids more realistic? Yes an archer or crossbow man would carry a melee weapon, but they weren't trained in them.

That's completely false.  Do you really believe that soldiers, military personel didn't train in every weapon they were expected to use on the field?  While they may not have had some direct tutelage from some grand master sword diety shang fung or other silliness but every professional soldier throughout history worth his salt has trained in any weaponry he could expect to use on a regular basis.  Do modern day soldiers only train to shoot OR engage in hand to hand/close quarters combat?  No, they train in both and in a diversity of weaponry.  Soldiers in history would have trained (be it with wooden swords or live weapon training) constantly.  In some cultures this was even required (England during a period of time expected every able man to practice with the bow regularly).  In fact your perception of such specialized "fodder"; for any professional soldier, or any man expecting to engage in martial combat for that matter, who would train in a single weapon to the exlusion of all others could be considered fodder on the battlefield; leads me to believe that you've played far too many bad RPG's.

Even going so far back as the greeks/romans for example the warrior had trained in multiple weapons.  Throwing of spears/javelins, use in their spear, sword and shield. 

Back in the middle ages the only specialty classes were archers. All infantry were expected to use shield spear and 1h. And it wasn't hard to chuck random weapons at eachother in battle stop being retards

This, minus the retard thrown in for lulz, is pretty accurate.  Only archers were really "specialists" and even then they would have spent time learning to use a melee weapon in times of hand to hand combat if it came to that on the field.  Would you, put in the place of a medieval warrior (with no forms of entertainment beyond throwing knives/axes at targets, sparring, hunting, wrestling/boxing, riding, etc) simply spend all of your practice time devoted to ONLY a single method of combat?  If so you would be a fool.

Melee = Meat and potatoes of warfare (in this time-frame)
Ranged = side dish, choose your flavor (bow, xbow, throwing shit)

[bruce]

Back in the middle ages the only specialty classes were archers.

Archers were expected to fight in melee just like every other man, and often did so reasonably effectively.

[Heroin]

Well I suppose everyone is entitled to their feelings.  20 wpf is fucking huge man.

20 WPF = 3% More speed/dmg.

And about it taking 2 more ranks of WM to get that? That is my point. Paying for WPF over 130 or so is somewhat redundant. You're just losing points and wasting skills/wpf. You're much better off now saving 2-3 skill points in WM, using those on PT, and getting some throwing prof.

Or alternatively, you could be an xbowman with PS:5, ATH:8, WM:8, and have 150 2h proficiency, with 115 xbow proficiency.

In this particular case, with fairly high WM, the difference between the xbow/2h build and a pure 2h build is only 24 wpf. To me, that is very little tradeoff at all.

[bruce]

On the other hand, a sniper crossbow plus steel bolts costs a bit more then transitional armor. The only crossbows which aren't a significant drain on your wallet are those below regular - which are more or less useless. So it's far from a "no-brainer" to make a crossbow hybrid.

[IG_Saint]

That's completely false.  Do you really believe that soldiers, military personel didn't train in every weapon they were expected to use on the field?  While they may not have had some direct tutelage from some grand master sword diety shang fung or other silliness but every professional soldier throughout history worth his salt has trained in any weaponry he could expect to use on a regular basis.  Do modern day soldiers only train to shoot OR engage in hand to hand/close quarters combat?  No, they train in both and in a diversity of weaponry.  Soldiers in history would have trained (be it with wooden swords or live weapon training) constantly.  In some cultures this was even required (England during a period of time expected every able man to practice with the bow regularly).  In fact your perception of such specialized "fodder"; for any professional soldier, or any man expecting to engage in martial combat for that matter, who would train in a single weapon to the exlusion of all others could be considered fodder on the battlefield; leads me to believe that you've played far too many bad RPG's.

You're partially right, but you're oversimplifying things and ignoring other major details. Anyway this is not the place for that discussion. And you ignored the most important part of my post: "In short: The (capable) ranged/melee weapon a hybrid gains is far more useful than the minor stat bonus you get as a pure."

In this particular case, with fairly high WM, the difference between the xbow/2h build and a pure 2h build is only 24 wpf. To me, that is very little tradeoff at all.

Anyone that claims that the 24 wpf and a couple of skill points is worth losing the xbow is just kidding themselves.

[Gorath]

20 WPF = 3% More speed/dmg. 

That's pretty significant.  Equivalent to an extra 6 agility.  Not to mention the extra 3 stat points you can have for not putting skill points into PD or PT.

And about it taking 2 more ranks of WM to get that? That is my point. Paying for WPF over 130 or so is somewhat redundant. You're just losing points and wasting skills/wpf. You're much better off now saving 2-3 skill points in WM, using those on PT, and getting some throwing prof. 

Indeed, versatility does seem to be a better investment from a logical standpoint.  This makes sense and I see no issue with it.  The other option as a pure build is to stop at 130 wpf (and only as much WM as needed) and take those extra skill points you were going to use trying to break the speed barrier and instead put some into shield (so the ranged weapon whine will stop), riding, or convert to even more stats and get an even higher str/agi setup.  Benefits all around.

Or alternatively, you could be an xbowman with PS:5, ATH:8, WM:8, and have 150 2h proficiency, with 115 xbow proficiency.

In this particular case, with fairly high WM, the difference between the xbow/2h build and a pure 2h build is only 24 wpf. To me, that is very little tradeoff at all.

Why are you trying to go for the extra 24 wpf in the first place when you said yourself it's redundant as the pure 2her?  Why not save yourself 2-3 points from un-needed WM and put those into shield or convert to another stat point?  Or grab 3 PT for some war dart fun?  Point is, you're leaving yourself vunerable to other scenarios by choosing to go "pure".  And this is good, because it is a choice.  You're taking a logical limitation in order to gain as you said 3% extra speed and damage (which in any RPG is pretty significant).  However as a warrior you're being illogical and so you're going to suffer from that decision by not having the versatility wiser warriors have who took the time to sacrifice a bit of raw power in one aspect in order to grab a bit of power in another area.  The mechanics are in place that show a net gain for a specialist vs a hybrid in their chosen area.  I guess it's just a matter that you think it should be far greater which I disagree with.  Either way if it gets changed the only thing I will do is adapt, as I've done with every patch, still making all of my toons some ranged/melee hybrid in the most effective way possible.  Biggest drawback is having to re-roll to re-arrange some stats and skills.

Under your proposed changes any smart hybrid will simply forgo any WPF in throwing or x-bow and still use them with 1wpf while putting all of their wpf into melee so that pures gain nothing except a few stat points and the hybrid can still put ranged spam into the air around the pure at will.

[Heroin]

Under your proposed changes any smart hybrid will simply forgo any WPF in throwing or x-bow and still use them with 1wpf while putting all of their wpf into melee so that pures gain nothing except a few stat points and the hybrid can still put ranged spam into the air around the pure at will.

I'm ok with this. And I played/play hybrids as well. Your point that "the wiser warrior will become a hybrid" is true, and I agree with it in this patch. However, where our opinions differ is whether or not that SHOULD be the case. In my opinion, both hybrids and pures should be equally attractive, so that all emphasis is on CHOICE.

Under the old system, you and I both know that hybrids were still valid builds. The difference between then and now is that under the old wpf costs, a hybrid would have about 50 less wpf than a pure, whereas now, they only have 20-30 less, depending on their build.

I think 50 less than a pure is a good distinction between a "warrior" who focuses entirely on one weapon, and one who divides his training between two weapons to attain more versatility.

The only thing that "broke the system" before was the wpf bonus exploit from retirement, and the fact that there was no level cap. With both of those flaws fixed, the previous wpf costs would work as originally intended, and create a desirable distinction between a "pure" and a "hybrid".

[bruce]

I would argue that if you wanted to further differentiate hybrids from pures you could start raising wpf prices earlier but make the price somewhat lower in the 120-140 region, so the total for a built char is more or less the same but the hybrid is, well, penalized more.

What I really don't want to see again are 200 wpf archers, etc.

Edit: yes throwing is a problem, but its got nothing to do with wpf. you can use it just fine with 0 wpf if you want.

[Matey]

nerf throwing. problem solved.

archer melee hybrids arent a problem.

xbow melee hybrids arent a problem.

throw melee hybrids are a problem.
They lose out on 3 str and 1 ps.. in exchange for 6 or so power throw... and they dont have any need to put any wpf into throwing. therefore the difference between a thrower melee hybrid and a pure melee in regards to melee capabilities, is minuscule... change power throw to affect damage only and not accuracy and everything will be wonderful. yes some people will still random throw shit everywhere, but at least more people will either be forced to get wpf for accuracy or give up throwing. i know you said you will throw shit anyway gorath, and im cool with that, at least you would be less likely to pin point headshot me.

[Ganon]

Xbow with 1wpf isn't a problem, it's not accurate at all and doesn't really make someone a hybrid. The problem with xbows is that even after putting alof of wpf they're still not accurate enough, so the xbowman currently is the only build that requires specialization to do reasonably well. That explains also why there so few xbowman.

Archer melee hybrids are still a problem, although most famous archers have switched build to melee, not because of hybrids being good or bad but because currently specializing in archery doesn't make much sense. The nerf to higher wpf has hit them as well.

So as proposed solutions we have (correct me if i'm wrong)
1) nerf throwing
2) redo the wpf formula
3) up the requirements for most weapons, which will also fix those hated spammer builds. Want to spam with 27-30 agi ? use a knife (there's even a good spammer build involving a knife)

[Brutal]

Xbow with 1wpf isn't a problem, it's not accurate at all and doesn't really make someone a hybrid. The problem with xbows is that even after putting alof of wpf they're still not accurate enough, so the xbowman currently is the only build that requires specialization to do reasonably well. That explains also why there so few xbowman.

Xbow unlike throwing and bow doesn't required PT or PD. Saying it's the only build that require specialization is biased to say the least.
If thrower had the accuracy of xbow with 100 wpf you would already had GTXed the game a long time ago.
With 1wpf in xbow you're still more accurate than a thrower with 11PT and 100 wpf using javelin...
There are still some xbower out there that do well and top the scorechart.

Throwing is just way more fun and entertaining than using an xbow, and since it's now competitive a lot of people use it.
But saying hybrid thrower are OP is just mehh, there the guy that take 1/3 of your health with javelin.

I've a build with 11PT and 100wpf in throwing and i mostly use javelin because even with jarrid 1 shooting is rare against an opponent with full hp.
Since i need 2 hits anyway why should i use expensive and innacurate weapon like jarrids ?
I could use throwing lance and i would 1 hit almost everybody but it's not durable with the upkeep.
although i saw a guy using plate with only throwing lance but i guess he spend a lot of time naked.

I've to admit is easier to get good K/D ratio with my thrower than with my polearm guy but the difference is not that great.
There should be some kind of nerf for powerthrower but it shouldn't render strengh build useless cuz everybody want diversity , right ?

[IG_Saint]

That's pretty significant.  Equivalent to an extra 6 agility.  Not to mention the extra 3 stat points you can have for not putting skill points into PD or PT.

And this is good, because it is a choice.  You're taking a logical limitation in order to gain as you said 3% extra speed and damage (which in any RPG is pretty significant).

You're completely ignoring the skill factor. Those minor increases aren't going to help you much in a fight against someone that outskills you. And if you outskill your opponent, you won't need those stat points anyway. Throwing or a crossbow for instance are far more useful than 3% extra speed and damage. You talk about choice, but currently the choice is between a minor stat bonus that is only usefull against someone of equal skill as you VS a secondary weapon that is useful in every situation. Not much of a choice.

Bruce and heroin have the right idea. Oh and do something about 1 wpf throwing.

[UrLukur]

You're completely ignoring the skill factor. Those minor increases aren't going to help you much in a fight against someone that outskills you. And if you outskill your opponent, you won't need those stat points anyway. Throwing or a crossbow for instance are far more useful than 3% extra speed and damage. You talk about choice, but currently the choice is between a minor stat bonus that is only usefull against someone of equal skill as you VS a secondary weapon that is useful in every situation. Not much of a choice.

Bruce and heroin have the right idea. Oh and do something about 1 wpf throwing.

If you are on the same level, you are more likely to lose with less speed and damage. Main tradeoff of hybrids is less gold on equipment (it can be non-issue if said hybrid own and lead his team to victory). I play pure build and i feel it's ok, i'll try 21/15 1h/throwing hybrid in the future, but i'll do more or less just as fine currently.

[Gorath]

You're completely ignoring the skill factor.

That's because when you are balancing you assume equal skill for all parties involved.  You never balance around a presumed skill difference.

@Matey:    You realize how many of my war darts miss when I try to pinpoint headshot you right?  It's not nearly as accurate as most people think, I just happen to carry war darts for the ammo count and aim for the head to make that one hit out of 4 throws count.

@Heroin:  I don't know man, we apparently have different memories about the viability of hybrids pre-patch.  I was told constantly in duels pre-patch that the whole hybrid thing makes me far too slow and weak to be effective 1v1 by quite a few good "pure" players (ManOfWar for instance in our 1h duels).  Currently hybrids have 30-ish less wpf than a pure if they actually build like a hybrid (100+ in the secondary wpf).  I feel that's about right.  Pure's are distinctly faster than me when dueling, but I can keep up as long as I'm Johnny on the spot with my blocking and chambers.  I don't get the option to attempt spam like they do. 

Throwing is the issue, and I can get behind that movement.  Overall hybrids and the wpf costs are not the issue.  No-one has yet to bring up something like my 1h/polearm hybrid as being broken or OP.  Or my 1h/2h hybrid.  It's always something ranged which shows the real issue people have is range, not hybrids themselves.  Matey has the right idea: 

  change power throw to affect damage only and not accuracy and everything will be wonderful. 

  If people have to build a proper hybrid, IE:  Putting 100+ wpf into the secondary weapon, then you will see far less of these 11PT 1-shot throwers who poop out a bar-mace and crush you when you get too close.  Or some other melee weapon because they were able to put all of their wpf into their melee weapon without requiring a hefty agi investment for extra wpf.

[Keshian]

I would argue that if you wanted to further differentiate hybrids from pures you could start raising wpf prices earlier but make the price somewhat lower in the 120-140 region, so the total for a built char is more or less the same but the hybrid is, well, penalized more.

What I really don't want to see again are 200 wpf archers, etc.

Edit: yes throwing is a problem, but its got nothing to do with wpf. you can use it just fine with 0 wpf if you want.

+1, I dont want wpf to be boosted for pure classes, just not so cheap at low levels comparatively now that hybrid becomes no-brainer for everyone.  Just a rebalancing, not a boost for specialization.