Author Topic: Get off the roof, Archers!  (Read 7853 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Rumblood

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1199
  • Infamy: 420
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: GrannPappy
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2011, 10:42:44 pm »
+1
It's not just the last ranged guy on a roof hiding that's the big problem Fluffy. It's the general idea of "I'mma hide behind a shield while riding my horse and make half the enemy team useless" that's going on. It just needs to be removed altogether.

Agreed.
"I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday" – Abraham Lincoln

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Kophka

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Renown: 92
  • Infamy: 14
  • cRPG Player
  • for the final ride
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Remnants
  • Game nicks: Kophka/Koschei
  • IRC nick: Kophka
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #106 on: September 14, 2011, 11:02:07 pm »
+1
"Quote from: Kophka on Yesterday at 12:15:16

    It's not just the last ranged guy on a roof hiding that's the big problem Fluffy. It's the general idea of "I'mma hide behind a shield while riding my horse and make half the enemy team useless" that's going on. It just needs to be removed altogether."

Agreed.

I like how you went off topic and took your not-so-subtle dig at cavalry.

The point you missed when making that completely facetious statement is that the horses (and riders holding their shield up) have to come at you to hurt you.

They aren't killing you while being completely out of reach of ANY melee weapon.

They aren't killing you while you are stuck halfway up a ladder trying to reach the horse to hurt it.

Unless of course it's an archer on that horse. But that's an argument for another topic, don't you think?

Offline Kafein

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 2203
  • Infamy: 808
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #107 on: September 14, 2011, 11:10:35 pm »
+2
I've played shielder in the past. Unless they have suddenly become crap I can't see the problem.


Maybe back when they effectively protected and weren't so penalizing for movement. They indeed have become crap.

You can run forward quicker than players can backpedal

No fleeing player is stupid enough to do it backpedalling. You never heard of jumpshooting, or seen it ?

and if an archer chooses to run then don't follow him if he's luring you into a trap (SMART!).

So the shields have to wait for the archers to die of old age ?

Out maneuver them.

Shielders are slow and have less acceleration than archers.


Yet if archers are that coordinated then maybe they deserve to win.

Shielders can be as coordinated as they want, in this case, they die. You could think they deserve to win if they are more coordinated than archers, but it doesn't matter.

I know many people hate it when archers use teamwork. So now we are at archers>than all now even shielders.

You are finally getting to the point.

Amazing. Next gen I'm going shield again. Maybe noobs I can watch noobs and learn.

Fixed.

Offline Braeden

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 420
  • Infamy: 53
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • I hear the sound of drums
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Acre?
  • Game nicks: Braeden_Sanguine
  • IRC nick: Braeden
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #108 on: September 14, 2011, 11:28:42 pm »
+1
I think ladders should take fewer slots to encourage their use.

Offline Lichen

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 184
  • Infamy: 79
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #109 on: September 14, 2011, 11:31:32 pm »
+1
@Kafein: I'm not going to quote everything. So shielders are penalized for movement and are now "crap".  I don't believe that at all because on my current character I have just 1 shield skill and a very cheap shield that gets wrecked in melee usually in 2 hits or less and even using that I can block arrows just fine.  'Noobs' is the only conclusion I can come to for those shielders that still get owned by archers.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 12:46:39 am by Lichen »

Offline Rumblood

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1199
  • Infamy: 420
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: GrannPappy
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #110 on: September 15, 2011, 12:18:02 am »
+2
I like how you went off topic and took your not-so-subtle dig at cavalry.

The point you missed when making that completely facetious statement is that the horses (and riders holding their shield up) have to come at you to hurt you.

They aren't killing you while being completely out of reach of ANY melee weapon.

They aren't killing you while you are stuck halfway up a ladder trying to reach the horse to hurt it.

Unless of course it's an archer on that horse. But that's an argument for another topic, don't you think?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
"I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday" – Abraham Lincoln

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Joker86

  • Mad & Bad
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1226
  • Infamy: 324
  • cRPG Player
  • Why so serious?
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Companions
  • Game nicks: Joker86_TP
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #111 on: September 15, 2011, 01:23:39 am »
+3
The whole point of ranged combat is to effect the other player before he can affect you, and move away before he reaches you. This is fundamentally what ranged classes do. Be it on a roof, behind a barrel, tree or whatever cover they can find.

I think this is the central statement in your post. And basically you are right here.

But what you brought up as an argument for your position is actually my argument for mine:

While you are enabling one class to effectively engage the other (melee versus ranged), your are disabling the other one from effectively doing the same (ranged versus melee in this case), this is not really a solution, just shifting the "problem" (I'm still not convinced there is a problem) somewhere else.

In least cases balancing is about clear, absolute facts. Usually it's more about subjective feelings and preferences.

In my opinion Warband Native has a very good balance. So it could serve as basic point of orientation.

In Native there are no ladders, and yet the archers do fine. So in my opinion, the ladders shifted already the balance to their favour, and so I think removing ladders would more or less "fix" this issue.

Let me say it this way:

Chances of infantry and cavalry getting up on a rooftop full of archers over a (breakable!) ladder without dying are way worse than chances of archers on the ground trying to successfully keep distance to melee fighters using his higher mobility by higher agility values and less encumbrance (and, not to forget, teammates and cover/obstacles on the ground).

Or, even easier:

Archers on rooftop vs. infantry on ground is no fair battle

Archers on rooftop vs. cavalry on ground is no fair battle

Archers on rooftop vs. archers on ground is fair battle


The rock-paper-cissors-system actually DOES require you to have two unfair battles, BUT one of it should be to your disadvantage, and not both favouring you heavily.


Bottom line: introducing ladders moved balance heavily to the favour of the archers. This needs to be fixed. I am already content with server rules forbidding to shoot from a roof without access at ANY TIME of the battle.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 01:24:45 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
î saved for eternety (without context  :mrgreen:)

Offline Dom.Miguel

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 33
  • Infamy: 16
  • cRPG Player
  • Audaces Fortuna Juvat
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Vanguards
  • Game nicks: Dom_Miguel, Telescopica, Jotunn and many others...
  • IRC nick: Dom.Miguel
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2011, 06:49:48 pm »
0
No
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Thank you Khorin

Offline Joker86

  • Mad & Bad
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1226
  • Infamy: 324
  • cRPG Player
  • Why so serious?
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Companions
  • Game nicks: Joker86_TP
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2011, 03:30:42 am »
0
Are you referring to my post? Could you please elaborate a bite more why "no", and to what?  :? :?:
Joker makes a very good point.
î saved for eternety (without context  :mrgreen:)

Offline dreadnok

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 838
  • Infamy: 562
  • cRPG Player
  • fuck these jerkoff kids
    • View Profile
  • Faction: KBW<MB<SoW
  • Game nicks: Gorp_The_Gorger
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2011, 03:45:27 am »
0
@Kafein: I'm not going to quote everything. So shielders are penalized for movement and are now "crap".  I don't believe that at all because on my current character I have just 1 shield skill and a very cheap shield that gets wrecked in melee usually in 2 hits or less and even using that I can block arrows just fine.  'Noobs' is the only conclusion I can come to for those shielders that still get owned by archers.

some arrows still go thru shields tho. your really not a noob when a throwing aor archer somehow uses the jfk bullet to hit you.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Tears of Destiny

  • Naive
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1847
  • Infamy: 870
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Quiet drifting through shallow waters. 死のび
    • View Profile
    • NADS
  • Faction: Black Company
  • IRC nick: Tears
Re: Get off the roof, Archers!
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2011, 03:46:30 am »
+1
some arrows Bolts still go thru shields tho. your really not a noob when a throwing aor archer somehow uses the jfk bullet to hit you.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.