Remove ladders from battle

[Bulzur]

Foot archer, on the ground, is the real badass way.
Say no to the lame archers on horse roofs.

[Slamz]

That archers resort to roof camping is a good sign of how poorly balanced they are.  It's a ridiculous and desperate solution for a ridiculous and desperate situation.

Let me count the ways archers suffer:
* Must wear light armor or your accuracy suffers
* Once you shoot someone the first time, they start dodging.  Given arrow velocities, your odds of a second hit are no better than 1 in 3, regardless of your aim (is he going to dodge left, right or not at all?)
* Heavy armor has little impact on people's speed so that guy in 110 pounds of steel with the giant sword is going to be able to chase you down well enough that any attempt to shoot at him is risking your life
* Very limited ammo means most archers take up 2 slots for arrows.  The rus and long bow are 2 slot weapons so you end up with no space left for a decent weapon.  If you use the horn bow you can have 1 slot free for a good 1-hander but still no shield.  So basically you are always fodderous
* Calculating arrow falloff and proper leading of the target is a lot harder than just swinging your sword
* Even if you're a master at these calculations, the bows themselves are not pinpoint accurate anyway so it's always a crap shoot
* Your only defense against cavalry is to get somewhere they can't reach
* Anyone with decent shield is essentially immune to your weapon
* If you have high power draw, your accuracy suffers
* If you have low power draw, you don't do enough damage to kill that guy running at you full speed in, again, his 110 pounds of armor

So, you want to remove ladders too?  On top of all that?  Maybe we should give archers a 20% chance of shooting themselves in the head every time they fire, too?

How about we fix a few things and remove ladders at the same time, rather than just destroy archers completely.

My suggestions:
+ Make heavy armor count for a larger reduction in running speed
+ Any cavalry who hits any polearm user head on will take damage to the horse equal to if the polearm user had hit the horse.  This will hopefully make cavalry more risky and let infantry better protect archers (as well as themselves)
+ If you get damaged by an arrow you get a "limp" effect for 4 seconds that makes you run 50% normal speed
+ Double the capacity of all quivers.  This will give archers a little more option in how they kit themselves.  (bow, quiver, shield, hammer would be viable without totally gimping yourself due to insufficient ammo)

This will leave archers vulnerable against cavalry if they have no infantry with them, and will leave shield users as the primary archer murderers but will make archers more effective and survivable against the omnipresent full armor steel horde that largely dominates the game.

[Tzar]

Jambi seams to do just fine without resorting to gay roof camp but then again he aint a noob archer like the rest of you whiners who wants ladders to stay ingame so u can be immortal for 5 min during each map..... 

And the archer vs cav is lol good archers take down cav like no tommorow..

Jambi reach the top score board all the time without resorting to climbing a roof and staying there for 5 min.. maybe if you guys didnt roof camp 24/7 you would learn how to play with the rest of the mortal´s

[Bobthehero]

Big fucking deal you're able to fire at will at people with no means to fight back
And you can totally out run someone in armor

[Ujin]

That archers resort to roof camping is a good sign of how poorly balanced they are.  It's a ridiculous and desperate solution for a ridiculous and desperate situation.

Let me count the ways archers suffer:
* Must wear light armor or your accuracy suffers
* Once you shoot someone the first time, they start dodging.  Given arrow velocities, your odds of a second hit are no better than 1 in 3, regardless of your aim (is he going to dodge left, right or not at all?)
* Heavy armor has little impact on people's speed so that guy in 110 pounds of steel with the giant sword is going to be able to chase you down well enough that any attempt to shoot at him is risking your life
* Very limited ammo means most archers take up 2 slots for arrows.  The rus and long bow are 2 slot weapons so you end up with no space left for a decent weapon.  If you use the horn bow you can have 1 slot free for a good 1-hander but still no shield.  So basically you are always fodderous
* Calculating arrow falloff and proper leading of the target is a lot harder than just swinging your sword
* Even if you're a master at these calculations, the bows themselves are not pinpoint accurate anyway so it's always a crap shoot
* Your only defense against cavalry is to get somewhere they can't reach
* Anyone with decent shield is essentially immune to your weapon
* If you have high power draw, your accuracy suffers
* If you have low power draw, you don't do enough damage to kill that guy running at you full speed in, again, his 110 pounds of armor

So, you want to remove ladders too?  On top of all that?  Maybe we should give archers a 20% chance of shooting themselves in the head every time they fire, too?

How about we fix a few things and remove ladders at the same time, rather than just destroy archers completely.

My suggestions:
+ Make heavy armor count for a larger reduction in running speed
+ Any cavalry who hits any polearm user head on will take damage to the horse equal to if the polearm user had hit the horse.  This will hopefully make cavalry more risky and let infantry better protect archers (as well as themselves)
+ If you get damaged by an arrow you get a "limp" effect for 4 seconds that makes you run 50% normal speed
+ Double the capacity of all quivers.  This will give archers a little more option in how they kit themselves.  (bow, quiver, shield, hammer would be viable without totally gimping yourself due to insufficient ammo)

This will leave archers vulnerable against cavalry if they have no infantry with them, and will leave shield users as the primary archer murderers but will make archers more effective and survivable against the omnipresent full armor steel horde that largely dominates the game.

You're a genuinely funny person, you know .

[Leshma]

That archers resort to roof camping is a good sign of how poorly balanced they are.  It's a ridiculous and desperate solution for a ridiculous and desperate situation.

Nah, it just shows how crappy players most of them are. I was an archer for a gen, NEVER stayed on roof until the end and a lot of times I was the best performing archer in both teams. Actually every time except when some of the big names like Nelo, Jambi, Zelisia, Nebun, Chase and players like that were on the server.

Had no problem with 2h players, could kill 3 or 4 of them chasing me, noob shielders weren't an issue as well, only guys that annoyed me were super fast cav and skilled xbowmen (who hide in bushes which makes them hard to see since I use MovieWB mod...)

Really, most of you archer guys must admit that you suck and try to get better at this game.

[MaHuD]

Green = good point
Orange = Thats how it is supposed to be, every class needs weaknesses
Red = Bullshit

That archers resort to roof camping is a good sign of how poorly balanced they are.  It's a ridiculous and desperate solution for a ridiculous and desperate situation.

Let me count the ways archers suffer:
* Must wear light armor or your accuracy suffers
* Once you shoot someone the first time, they start dodging.  Given arrow velocities, your odds of a second hit are no better than 1 in 3, regardless of your aim (is he going to dodge left, right or not at all?)
* Heavy armor has little impact on people's speed so that guy in 110 pounds of steel with the giant sword is going to be able to chase you down well enough that any attempt to shoot at him is risking your life
* Very limited ammo means most archers take up 2 slots for arrows.  The rus and long bow are 2 slot weapons so you end up with no space left for a decent weapon.  If you use the horn bow you can have 1 slot free for a good 1-hander but still no shield.  So basically you are always fodderous
* Calculating arrow falloff and proper leading of the target is a lot harder than just swinging your sword
* Even if you're a master at these calculations, the bows themselves are not pinpoint accurate anyway so it's always a crap shoot
* Your only defense against cavalry is to get somewhere they can't reach
* Anyone with decent shield is essentially immune to your weapon
* If you have high power draw, your accuracy suffers
* If you have low power draw, you don't do enough damage to kill that guy running at you full speed in, again, his 110 pounds of armor

[Leshma]

1) Once you shoot someone the first time, they start dodging.  Given arrow velocities, your odds of a second hit are no better than 1 in 3, regardless of your aim (is he going to dodge left, right or not at all?)
2) Calculating arrow falloff and proper leading of the target is a lot harder than just swinging your sword

1) Some archers don't care about players dancing in circles, they hit you regardless of that, how you explain that? I say you suck
2) Swinging your sword is just one smaller portion of playing twohander, bigger and a lot harder are footwork and blocking/feinting, so no 2h isn't easier at all. Calculating arrow fall and reading people's moves isn't that hard at all. Again, you suck

[Kafein]

1) Some archers don't care about players dancing in circles, they hit you regardless of that, how you explain that? I say you suck

This.

[Kophka]

I posted this in another thread, but it works here too. (Isn't funny how so many threads are related?) 

The arguments for Pro-Roof-Camping (or 1) are : a) Archer is hard! ; b) I'm not a melee fighter! ; c) Cavalry kills me while I shoot at other people! ; d) People fought on roofs in medieval times!

Ok, acknowledged.

The arguments for Anti-Roof-Camping (or 2) are : a) We can't fight back! ; b) It delays rounds! ; c) People leech! ; d) People fought in fields/forests/mountains in medieval times!

That's about it, yeah?

So ,
1a) Yes, archer is hard. It got nerfed pretty badly. Sorry guys.

1b) Melee fighters aren't ranged fighters. You have the advantage anywhere but face to face. Imagine a battle where you archers had absolutely no one to shoot. It would suck, right? That's how melee ppl feel right now.

1c) Try paying attention to cavalry, they really really don't want to fight an aware ANYTHING. Horses die like dodo birds when people are watching them.

1d) Yeah they did. Doesn't mean it's fun for anyone but the people in the nests.

Ok, now,

2a) This is exactly why people hate it so much. On the ground, a ranged fighter can kill just like any other member of his team. When he's on a roof, it becomes a ranged vs ranged fight, making the rest of the team useless. Not cool guys.

2b) It has delayed rounds in the past, but that doesn't mean it always will. But when a round IS delayed, in my experience, it has usually been 3-4 archers up on a roof/tower, refusing to move until all melee is dead.

2c) Same argument as 2b really. People that aren't even ranged get up on the roof/tower with their ranged buddies, and sit there being useless. Not the archers fault, but definitely an argument for getting rid of ladders in battle.

2d) This is what people think of when they think of medieval battle, maybe because that's how the media told us it was done. The reason I prefer to think like this is because EVERYONE can be useful and participate in the battle from beginning to end. Good argument for sticking to field battles, rather than villages/towns OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

I think the Anti-Roof-Camping arguments hold a lot more water than the pro's, and I can't wait until they figure out some way to make this crap go away. Please get rid of ladders in battle devs!

[Teeth]

That's 63.5 percent that voted yes when not counting the 'I like the view votes'.

[Tears of Destiny]

I am starting to feel like people are not really responding to this thread anymore, and just copy and pasting old responses from the other threads. 

[rustyspoon]

I am starting to feel like not really responding to this thread anymore, and people are just copy and pasting old responses from the other threads. 

[Teeth]

I am starting to feel like people are not really responding to this thread anymore, and just copy and pasting old responses from the other threads. 

That's why devs need to either say yes or no on this, cause this discussion isn't going to get any new information.

[Kafein]

That's why devs need to either say yes or no on this, cause this discussion isn't going to get any new information.

This.

Ho wait, I'm quoting myself...