Author Topic: Nerf Arbalest!  (Read 18325 times)

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Offline Lotrix

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #105 on: July 29, 2011, 10:22:28 pm »
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Arbalest is awsome and it's normal to 1 hit-> kill .. so don't nerf anything,it's fine atm :shock:
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Offline Jacko

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #106 on: July 29, 2011, 10:30:22 pm »
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So its upto xbowmen to balance their class?
I see what you did there.

Yes. No.

*brain hurts*

Arbalest is awsome and it's normal to 1 hit-> kill .. so don't nerf anything,it's fine atm :shock:

Trolling trolling trolling..
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Offline Ylca

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #107 on: July 29, 2011, 10:42:21 pm »
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Because it's dumb. It's also no fun. I don't 1-hit people with my masterwork german poleaxe. I sure as hell don't one-shot people with my 1-hander. Throwing weapons don't 1-hit either. They may be able to shoot faster, but they have to put themselves in much more danger to do so.

If you are all saying that 1-shots are rare anyway, what's so bad about getting rid of them completely? Especially if you still have guaranteed 2-shots on medium armor?

The fact is, it's a game and I don't think anyone should be 1-shotting anyone (unless it's a headshot). 1-shots make the game less fun.

If you're claiming you've never one shot anyone with your german polearm I'm claiming either you have a terrible build, are a terrible player, or are outright lying.

Quote
So its upto xbowmen to balance their class?
I see what you did there.

No, better to let people who never use the weapon nor have any test data to back up their claims to balance other classes weapons. Next up, archers handle the next 2hander rebalance! Grab your popcorn folks, this one is going to be a fun one!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 10:44:26 pm by Ylca »

Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #108 on: July 29, 2011, 10:53:18 pm »
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If you're claiming you've never one shot anyone with your german polearm I'm claiming either you have a terrible build, are a terrible player, or are outright lying.

We're talking about high-level players here. Not peasants.

My masterwork German Poleaxe does 45 CUT damage. With my PS of 7, that gives me 70 CUT damage. So if a level 30 player is wearing no armor, there's a good chance I could 1-shot them. Especially after the changes to armor soak value, I doubt I could 1-shot the average level 30 player in even light armor without a good speed bonus.

Math is fun. You should try it sometime.
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Offline Darkkarma

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #109 on: July 29, 2011, 10:59:51 pm »
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We're talking about high-level players here. Not peasants.

My masterwork German Poleaxe does 45 CUT damage. With my PS of 7, that gives me 70 CUT damage. So if a level 30 player is wearing no armor, there's a good chance I could 1-shot them. Especially after the changes to armor soak value, I doubt I could 1-shot the average level 30 player in even light armor without a good speed bonus.

Math is fun. You should try it sometime.

You've one shotted me before on karma in my various get ups. Although extremely rare, you will almost always 2- shot my character regardless though. The reload time on the arbalest mixed with the difficulty with hitting from distance make it fine IMO. Unless you run or just straight into the shot, i'm not going to one shot you. I eman yeah, one shots are lame, I totally agree, but then why don't we nerf the bec a bit then? Why not nerf any other weapon that one-shots people. My apologies, I just don't see why a weapon should be nerfed because it can occasionally one shot people.
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Offline Ylca

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #110 on: July 29, 2011, 11:03:24 pm »
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We're talking about high-level players here. Not peasants.

My masterwork German Poleaxe does 45 CUT damage. With my PS of 7, that gives me 70 CUT damage. So if a level 30 player is wearing no armor, there's a good chance I could 1-shot them. Especially after the changes to armor soak value, I doubt I could 1-shot the average level 30 player in even light armor without a good speed bonus.

Math is fun. You should try it sometime.

Has it not been pointed out already numerous times by arbalest players that one shots are incredibly rare? You are also not at all taking into account the new armor soak values. This thread made me pick up an arbalest and after using it all day i'd have freaking loved for the complaints to be true, believe me. As it stands i feel better off with my xbow that can pick off low armor archers/reloading crossbowmen and take a chunk off incoming melee before i slice at them before a huge lumbering piece of slow reloading garbage like the arbalest.

By the way i have a logical counter to all your complaints.

Elite scimitars are one of the best in their class, you see tons of 1handers using them, they are almost standard.

Bec de Corbins are great in their class, you see tons of people using them, and they are incredibly common.

Arbalests are the ??? in their class, you see ??? using them, and they are ??? common?

Hint: The only person i know who consistently uses an arby is DarkKarma, any others? Half the time people complain about getting killed by an "arbalest" it's just that they have been charging full force into my regular crossbow bolts.

If arbalests were so good they would be all over the place, just like any other weapon that is best in class. As it stands i almost never see an arbalest user. Like i said, they are incredibly niche and nowhere near overpowered. If they were overpowered everyone would want and be using one, especially in the past when one could get away with 1 wpf in xbows.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 11:04:27 pm by Ylca »

Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #111 on: July 29, 2011, 11:05:16 pm »
-1
You've one shotted me before on karma in my various get ups. Although extremely rare, you will almost always 2- shot my character regardless though. The reload time on the arbalest mixed with the difficulty with hitting from distance make it fine IMO. Unless you run or just straight into the shot, i'm not going to one shot you. I eman yeah, one shots are lame, I totally agree, but then why don't we nerf the bec a bit then? Why not nerf any other weapon that one-shots people. My apologies, I just don't see why a weapon should be nerfed because it can occasionally one shot people.

Yeah, that was probably when I was still running with 10PS. Don't do that anymore.

The bec is a lot better than it used to be, but I think a lot of this has to do with pierce damage in general. Overall, pierce damage was affected the least by the recent armor changes.

Just to throw this out there, how would you feel about an arbalest that does less damage overall, can still 2-shot people in medium armor, but has a slightly faster reload?

And ::sigh:: since you have to go down this road...


By the way i have a logical counter to all your complaints.

Elite scimitars are one of the best in their class, you see tons of 1handers using them, they are almost standard.

Bec de Corbins are great in their class, you see tons of people using them, and they are incredibly common.

Arbalests are the ??? in their class, you see ??? using them, and they are ??? common?

Hint: The only person i know who consistently uses an arby is DarkKarma, any others? Half the time people complain about getting killed by an "arbalest" it's just that they have been charging full force into my regular crossbow bolts.

If arbalests were so good they would be all over the place, just like any other weapon that is best in class. As it stands i almost never see an arbalest user. Like i said, they are incredibly niche and nowhere near overpowered. If they were overpowered everyone would want and be using one, especially in the past when one could get away with 1 wpf in xbows.

Elite Scimitars aren't as common as they used to be and I think they'll be even less common once people get more used to the armor soak changes. Nowadays, the only real benefit if the elite scimitar is its model and the fact that it hits earlier than it should due to hitboxes in this game. Overall, someone's better off with a weapon that has higher cut, or comparable cut and a pierce.

I'll give you that becs are pretty common nowadays, but I think that polearm diversity is slowly improving. I think it's popularity is currently due to how pierce is handled.

Now, all of the data you mentioned can't be measured. You are just saying that some things are common and some aren't. You said the Arbelest isn't common, which I agree with. However, the Arbalest also costs as much as a horse and will break a lot without WPF investment. There just aren't a lot of dedicated xbow men. You kind of need to be to use it effectively and to be able to afford it.

You also say that people getting killed by xbows are getting killed because they are "charging" into the bolts. What should they do? Run away? Should this game turn into "Hide Until All the Ranged Guys Run Out of Ammo"? It's a game where 2 groups come to fight each other. Of COURSE they are also going to be charging at each other. So I would say that particular event happens quite frequently...

I just don't get all the rage here. What's wrong with not being able to 1-shot a level 30 player wearing medium armor? I'm not saying cut the damage in half. I just think the MW damage bonus on the heavier crossbows could be lowered a few points.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 11:36:50 pm by rustyspoon »
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Offline MadJackMcMad

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #112 on: July 29, 2011, 11:36:29 pm »
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Because it's dumb. It's also no fun. I don't 1-hit people with my masterwork german poleaxe. I sure as hell don't one-shot people with my 1-hander. Throwing weapons don't 1-hit either. They may be able to shoot faster, but they have to put themselves in much more danger to do so.

If you are all saying that 1-shots are rare anyway, what's so bad about getting rid of them completely? Especially if you still have guaranteed 2-shots on medium armor?
It would be a strain to consider fighting a back peddling polespammer 'fun'.  Particularly when one is hampered by a lack of melee proficiency and lengthy weaponry, as Arbalesters often are.  And yes, you do one hit people.

The fact is, it's a game and I don't think anyone should be 1-shotting anyone (unless it's a headshot). 1-shots make the game less fun.
No, the fact is, many games incorporate a level of lethality equal to, and often greater than cRPG.  The current damage model is extremely forgiving by comparison to, for example, Red Orchestra.
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Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2011, 11:54:00 pm »
-1
It would be a strain to consider fighting a back peddling polespammer 'fun'.  Particularly when one is hampered by a lack of melee proficiency and lengthy weaponry, as Arbalesters often are.  And yes, you do one hit people.
No, the fact is, many games incorporate a level of lethality equal to, and often greater than cRPG.  The current damage model is extremely forgiving by comparison to, for example, Red Orchestra.

I'm of the opinion that fighting 1-h with no shield is the most fun in the game. To each his own I guess. Also, WPF doesn't do much for weapon speed, especially the fast 1-handers. The difference between 100 and 120 WPF is not much at all. The damage increase is also only slight.

Also, other games that take place during entirely different time periods with entirely different weapons and entirely different styles aren't good comparisons. Most people play this game for the melee combat. I think that just about anyone would agree that anybody 1-hitting anyone (who isn't a peasant) isn't fun. I'm not just picking on xbows here.

Also, a MW Arbalest with MW bolts gets a 13p damage increase. That's WAY higher than any other item in the game. Again, what makes xbows so special?
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Offline Nemeth

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #114 on: July 30, 2011, 12:00:29 am »
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Also, a MW Arbalest with MW bolts gets a 13p damage increase. That's WAY higher than any other item in the game. Again, what makes xbows so special?

EXAMPLE TIEM

Level 30 crossbowman with arbalest+steel bolts.
price: 18796+2263=21059

Mundane:
base damage: 79p + 8p = 87p
final damage: 87p (get no bonus from wpf or skill)

Triple heirloomed:
base damage: 87p + 13p = 100p
final damage: 87p (get no bonus from wpf or skill)

damage difference: 100p-87p=13p
percentage increase: 100p/87p * 100% - 100% = 15%


Level 30 archer with 18 str, 6 PS and 150 wpf using a longbow + bodkin arrows
price: 9974+5058=15032

Mundane:
base damage: 26p + 6p = 32p
final damage: 67p (bonus from wpf, PD and str)

Triple heirloomed:
base damage: 29p + 8p = 37p
final damage: 77p (bonus from wpf, PD and str)

damage difference: 77p-67p=10p
percentage increase: 77p/67p * 100% - 100% = 15%


You need to realize that xbows are not affected by any skill, they get what they get. Every other weapon is affected by corresponing skill making the hierloom damage much higher than listed on the paper.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 12:02:01 am by Nemeth »

Offline Seawied

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #115 on: July 30, 2011, 12:15:58 am »
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Gets no bonus from wpf or anything... which begs the question, why is it needed. Works just fine as a shotgun... and has about the same accuracy as a throwing lance.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
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Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #116 on: July 30, 2011, 12:17:59 am »
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Ranged looms are stupid in general, a ranged opponent with a +6 weapon is a MUCH higher threat than someone without looms. Fully loomed longbows are a pain aswell, simply because of the damage output.

In the case of the arbalest, those 13 points of damage really pushes it into the "oneshot-zone", making "fighting" fully loomed arbalest users a pain, while stock ones are not so much of an issue.



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Offline rustyspoon

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #117 on: July 30, 2011, 12:24:01 am »
-1
You need to realize that xbows are not affected by any skill, they get what they get. Every other weapon is affected by corresponing skill making the hierloom damage much higher than listed on the paper.

I totally understand that, which accounts for its already really high initial damage value. I totally agree with that damage value. I just don't think you can run a straight percentage increase on this as the values break down the higher the initial damage.

Also, the not needing to put points in anything is one of the bonus of a crossbow. To put things in perspective...

A plain old arbalest with steel bolts does 87p damage.

a 39/3 build with a MW bec does 90p damage. That takes a HEAVY investment.

I'm not saying to just dump some of the damage. I'm saying drop a few points in damage and give them something to compensate. Like, increase the reload speed, or get rid of that stupid firing delay.
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Offline Ylca

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #118 on: July 30, 2011, 12:34:14 am »
+1
Ranged looms are stupid in general, a ranged opponent with a +6 weapon is a MUCH higher threat than someone without looms. Fully loomed longbows are a pain aswell, simply because of the damage output.

In the case of the arbalest, those 13 points of damage really pushes it into the "oneshot-zone", making "fighting" fully loomed arbalest users a pain, while stock ones are not so much of an issue.

Ylca sees "high threat" ranged opponent.
Ylca raises shield.
Ylca proceeds to ignore "high threat" ranged opponent, or walk over forcing him to pay attention to me till i engage him in melee.

I'm not seeing the problem here, you mean threat priorties change based on your own personal choice of build? No one made you not take a shield, you chose power over protection so you deal with the different threat chart. A 2hander would probably laugh as a short range maul-user ran towards them for instance, whereas I as a shielder am filled with a rising dread with every step they draw closers.

You cannot be good at everything in this game. I wish it were a requirement to read and understand the previous sentence before commenting on balance. People talk about fun and balance and how "people play this game for the melee combat" without ever acknolwedging that they're just placing their own preferences on an entire group of people without even attempting to see another side of the equation. Why listen to facts and figures from those dirty ranged when you "know" that everyone plays this game for melee despite the huge contingent of ranged characters. One of the biggest amuesments i see on this forums is people will scream ranged spam until they are blue in the face, then turn around and say people play this game for melee. If that were the case, then where are these ranged characters magically appearing from?

Stop trying to balance classes so your pet class can do better, start trying to balance classes around making the game fun for everyone. In every game where people say "screw you, got mine" you see a circle of nerfs until no one is having any fun anymore. When people start complaining their preferred class is hit too hard people simply say "tough, happened to mine too" and then everyone is screwed.

How about we actually act like beta testers and try to help flesh out a product that is versatile with options for multiple playstyles balanced for team play? Is that so much to ask? Barring that, if one can't be impartial or at least reasonable then keep the "buff my class, nerf all others" sentiments out of balance discussion, they really help no one and do nothing but make the game slide towards the worse.

I totally understand that, which accounts for its already really high initial damage value. I totally agree with that damage value. I just don't think you can run a straight percentage increase on this as the values break down the higher the initial damage.

Also, the not needing to put points in anything is one of the bonus of a crossbow. To put things in perspective...

A plain old arbalest with steel bolts does 87p damage.

a 39/3 build with a MW bec does 90p damage. That takes a HEAVY investment.

I'm not saying to just dump some of the damage. I'm saying drop a few points in damage and give them something to compensate. Like, increase the reload speed, or get rid of that stupid firing delay.

How many times can that bec attack in a minute? Now how many times can the arbalest? How many people can the bec user completely tie up by engaging? Now how about the arbalest, how many people can it tie up? You're not considering the properties of the weapons themselves, your just crunching numbers and ignoring all other metrics of bonuses and drawbacks.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 12:36:33 am by Ylca »

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Nerf Arbalest!
« Reply #119 on: July 30, 2011, 12:51:23 am »
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(click to show/hide)

Are you seriously incapable of comprehending two lines of text?

What I am saying is that the difference between an unloomed ranged char and a fully loomed one (like 400 hrs of time investment) is too big. Your effectiveness as a new ranged char is balls compared to the old ones with fully loomed weapons/ammo (especially in the case of the arbalest, for reason stated above), just because of the looms (i.e something that has nothing to do with skill, just time investment).

And that is pure bs imo.

So, suggestions:

Buff nonloomed ranged abit, and nerf the looms.

Damage nerf and ammo/acc/whatev buff to the most extreme ranged weps.

Also, please read the thread before you post:

The looms are the issue imo. Make the looms add more shot/realoding speed and less damage (making the weapon better for ranged duels, while making it less extreme in the damage department)

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