Why do we even need upkeep anymore?

[Lichen]

Changes on riding skill requirement where weird and fucked things up as nearly every cav can ride a PC without gimping themselves now. If horse requirements and agi per riding skill were returned to prepatch values, we could safely remove upkeep altogether as a PC build would mean 30 agility again.

I think players are still pretty gimped once they get enough riding skill for the plated charger. They can only get a max 6 or 7 PS or IF (one 6 the other 7 according to the character planner and that's with skill conversions). Or if they put points in other things like athletics or weaponmaster that's even less for IF or PS.

[Overdriven]

Of course not everyone was having heavy armor. Not yet. But every day some people got to the "endgame" stage. More and more people were leaving the game because it was just boring the shit out of most people. Grind grind grind, buy armor, grind grind grind, buy weapon, etc etc. To be a tincan it didn't matter if you were good or had skills or wit or whatever. You just had to play for 1000 hours. Woah, great goal there, really.

I can assure you, without upkeep, cRPG would have been dead by now. Running around as an unstoppable tincan sounds like fun. Until you are forced to do it to keep up with the others.

Eh...this has changed how? Now to buy stuff you just have to grind in weaker gear even harder than before. People now just sell loom points on the market to make enough gold to use tin can armour. Either that or they run around in peasant gear. Upkeep hasn't changed a damn thing. The reason people came or stayed was because the other changes balanced it a lot more. Upkeep is nothing to do with that.

Hell in my opinion the only reason loads more people aren't raging at the moment is because you releasing strategus has kept a lot of people interested. If it wasn't for that then you'd probably have 10x more complaining on your hands.

Not everyone was Tincan in those days, and not everybody wanted to be. There where A LOT of people who were high enough levels, had enough money, but enjoyed running around in medium quality gear. The problem was that the people in heavy armour were invincible as there were few penalties and the armour bonus was a lot. Now the trade off is far less and there's smaller reason to go heavy armour as it isn't instant win any more. Again, upkeep has nothing to do with any of this. You introduced upkeep at the same time as introducing a hell of a lot of other balancing. Now with even more patches after wards, upkeep is becoming redundant as a balancing tool now that the classes are becoming more even and the top tier expensive gear isn't as good as it was.

I'm not saying remove upkeep, it's a good idea. But reduce it drastically. Your reasons for introducing it were to balance. The classes are balanced largely in other ways now. Sure they still need some tweaking, but otherwise they are converging a lot more now. By all means keep upkeep, it adds an interesting aspect, but reduce it by a lot.

Crpg isn't going to get any bigger now, unless strategus picks up the slack, because new players get so screwed over atm. As does a lot of people.

[Lech]

Eh...this has changed how? Now to buy stuff you just have to grind in weaker gear even harder than before. People now just sell loom points on the market to make enough gold to use tin can armour. Either that or they run around in peasant gear. Upkeep hasn't changed a damn thing. The reason people came or stayed was because the other changes balanced it a lot more. Upkeep is nothing to do with that.

Hell in my opinion the only reason loads more people aren't raging at the moment is because you releasing strategus has kept a lot of people interested. If it wasn't for that then you'd probably have 10x more complaining on your hands.

Not everyone was Tincan in those days, and not everybody wanted to be. There where A LOT of people who were high enough levels, had enough money, but enjoyed running around in medium quality gear. The problem was that the people in heavy armour were invincible as there were few penalties and the armour bonus was a lot. Now the trade off is far less and there's smaller reason to go heavy armour as it isn't instant win any more. Again, upkeep has nothing to do with any of this. You introduced upkeep at the same time as introducing a hell of a lot of other balancing. Now with even more patches after wards, upkeep is becoming redundant as a balancing tool now that the classes are becoming more even and the top tier expensive gear isn't as good as it was.

I'm not saying remove upkeep, it's a good idea. But reduce it drastically. Your reasons for introducing it were to balance. The classes are balanced largely in other ways now. Sure they still need some tweaking, but otherwise they are converging a lot more now. By all means keep upkeep, it adds an interesting aspect, but reduce it by a lot.

Crpg isn't going to get any bigger now, unless strategus picks up the slack, because new players get so screwed over atm. As does a lot of people.

Wrong, i would not play without upkeep.

[Tears of Destiny]

Wrong, i would not play without upkeep.

THis for me. I think upkeep is a good idea if you make money when in light gear, nearly no money in medium, and lose money in heavy. This way the "best" items are more rare and special.

Even in Native, you have to "grind" wins in order for your money budget to increase so you can use the better gear. When compared to Native, making a knight in c-RPG is substantially easier.

[Overdriven]

THis for me. I think upkeep is a good idea if you make money when in light gear, nearly no money in medium, and lose money in heavy. This way the "best" items are more rare and special.

Even in Native, you have to "grind" wins in order for your money budget to increase so you can use the better gear. When compared to Native, making a knight in c-RPG is substantially easier.

Yes but chadz said upkeep was to take away grind. It seems to me that you simply have to grind more now than you ever did before upkeep.

I just think we don't have much variation now, people wear very similar things all the time. It's quite boring.

[Gorath]

Yes but chadz said upkeep was to take away grind. It seems to me that you simply have to grind more now.

Because you do.  Make no mistake, even though chadz has said he wants to lessen the grind, cRPG started as a grinder and if anything has become more and more grindy over time UNLESS during the magical bitching hour you exploited the first phase of retirement and stacked up a billion heirlooms and gold.

cRPG is french for "Grind-till-you-die-then-upkeep-passes-on-to-your-children"

[Lech]

Yes but chadz said upkeep was to take away grind. It seems to me that you simply have to grind more now than you ever did before upkeep.

I just think we don't have much variation now, people wear very similar things all the time. It's quite boring.

similar? i see from padded armor to plate armor, not to mention great weapon diversity as people wear different armor so there is no ultimate weapon and all weapon classes are viable.

[IceManX]

Wrong, i would not play without upkeep.

Then you must be one of the old players that have Millions of Gold!
Otherwise you dont think enough about the upkeep.

At the moment its alot of more peasant vs. heavy gear fighting.
Before january the people could play in the armor the would, now they have to play in the armor they are allowed to...
An Elite player will kill everybody from rags to plate... but with plate you have perhaps a better chance even if u just damage him, then your teammates can kill him easier.
But what to do against elite player now? He kills everybody in 1 Hit, because you dont have the gear to match up with him.

I agree that the upkeep would have fit better to pre-january. It was sometimes crazy. Huge amount of WPF and those crazy endtier weapons.
There was no limitation in the old days, just murder around. But now we have a limitation lvl cap 34-35, no WPF from retire, weapons, armors and horses were nerfed and balanced and so on.
But now upkeep is just making a time sink... play (grind) hours to play an hour for real...

If upkeep would be removed, no tincan can murder around like in the old days. The weapons got balanced, same with the lvl cap (there are no such crazy builds like before, lvl 35-45, huge amount of wpf, HP and so on!)
Even today we have some tincan, they have gold and can use their armor, it helps them, but doesnt make them invulnerable like prejanuary.
But normal players cant use their armors/weapons today, because of the crazy upkeep - it keeps them away to be helped by their gear and so they are just poor victims!

similar? i see from padded armor to plate armor, not to mention great weapon diversity as people wear different armor so there is no ultimate weapon and all weapon classes are viable.

Sure, they were padded armor because they have no gold - or they are archers - or have an agi built and want to be fast - or just for the style!

And as you say, people use also different weapons. Thats not because there is upkeep, weapons were balanced and are more even.
If the upkeep would be removed, most people will still use different weapons, because there are no uber weapons anymore (like the old long espada esvalona, 95% of 1h players used it pre january - nowadays its the most expensive weapon and only a little percentage use it, for the most the stats dont fit).


--------
What about you chadz and your def-team if you just try it out.
Make a little test. Perhaps for around 2-4 weeks. And take a look what happens to the game, if there are more tincans around...
What people think about the removing of upkeep.

I swear you, people would like it. Espacialy the new/middle ones will like it like the heaven!

[Leshma]

Double the upkeep. Too many tincans!

[Lichen]

Since so many players seem to hate plate wearers and other high tier stuff how about increase the prices on all the high tier armor and weaps and thus the upkeep would increase as well. At the same time keep the prices the same for mid and low tier stuff and also lower those items break chances a significant amount (maybe 3 or 4 times less likely to break). Everybody happy? Probably not but it's the best I can think of.

[Corrado_Decimo]

Grind grind grind, buy armor, grind grind grind, buy weapon, etc etc. To be a tincan it didn't matter if you were good or had skills or wit or whatever. You just had to play for 1000 hours. Woah, great goal there, really.

well now is:

grind grind grind retire armor grind grind grind retire armor grind grind grind retire armor grind grind grind retire weapon grind grind grind retire weapon grind grind grind retire weapon grind grind grind retire secondary weapon grind grind grind retire secondary weapon grind grind grind retire secondary weapon grind grind grind retire gauntlets grind grind grind retire gauntlets grind grind grind retire gauntlets.

as who grinded plate to keep up with tincans, now grind to keep up with +3 gear.

so instead grinding 1000 hours, became grinding 100.000 hours.

no matter what will the trolls say. chadz stated a fact as i did.

[Corrado_Decimo]

Since so many players seem to hate plate wearers and other high tier stuff how about increase the prices on all the high tier armor and weaps and thus the upkeep would increase as well. At the same time keep the prices the same for mid and low tier stuff and also lower those items break chances a significant amount (maybe 3 or 4 times less likely to break). Everybody happy? Probably not but it's the best I can think of.

we still need heavy tanks. and heavy tanks will still get surrounded and killed while medium/light tanks with decent athletics, will not get surrounded and live. heavy tanks just trade invaluable running speed and profiency for passive absorption.

i could run in plate for a long time with my actual bank. so really a lot of people could do. but i really don't feel comfortable fighting with that massive plate weight. i don't see many people in plate and not because people can't afford it. simply because there is people that like to walk slow but sustain more hits and people that enjoy to fight on the flanks and enjoy a better speed for footwork stuff.

edit:

and oh.. we see a lot of 1h blunt and pierce, 2h blunt, polearms pierce around.. so heavy armor is not that big advantage.

[Overdriven]

It really isn't much of an advantage...hence why upkeep should either be lowered a lot, or removed. It's redundant now that a lot of balancing has occurred since jan.

[Leshma]

we still need heavy tanks. and heavy tanks will still get surrounded and killed while medium/light tanks with decent athletics, will not get surrounded and live. heavy tanks just trade invaluable running speed and profiency for passive absorption.

i could run in plate for a long time with my actual bank. so really a lot of people could do. but i really don't feel comfortable fighting with that massive plate weight. i don't see many people in plate and not because people can't afford it. simply because there is people that like to walk slow but sustain more hits and people that enjoy to fight on the flanks and enjoy a better speed for footwork stuff.

edit:

and oh.. we see a lot of 1h blunt and pierce, 2h blunt, polearms pierce around.. so heavy armor is not that big advantage.

Currently, since there are so many town maps rolling on EU1 success formula is:

wear plate + swing poleaxe = profit

Shielders should have the upper hand in close quarters. Guess what, they don't. Also cut damage is crap against plate.

You think I'm wrong? Look around yourself, everyone is either stabbing with long spear or swinging with poleaxe. Some 1H, some 2H and those unavoidable morons who think they are playing medieval CS (they should be taken out of equation since they will play medieval CS no matter what happens). Also on marketplace everyone is exchanging for poleaxes.

[Overdriven]

Currently, since there are so many town maps rolling on EU1 success formula is:

wear plate + swing poleaxe = profit

Shielders should have the upper hand in close quarters. Guess what, they don't. Also cut damage is crap against plate.

You think I'm wrong? Look around yourself, everyone is either stabbing with long spear or swinging with poleaxe. Some 1H, some 2H and those unavoidable morons who think they are playing medieval CS (they should be taken out of equation since they will play medieval CS no matter what happens). Also on marketplace everyone is exchanging for poleaxes.

Playing EU1 tonight...must have only seen a couple of poleaxes