Why do we even need upkeep anymore?

[Sylver]

Sorry devs, but upkeep is too harsh atm.  Needs to be 1/3 less and no upkeep on arrows or bolts (they are consumables!  Just make us buy new ones when we run out at a realistic price point?).  As a new player it's already a challenge (but fun) to save up and get better gear over time.  But after the new patch, the upkeep is soooo harsh that I turn upkeep off and run around with the cheapest but still broken gear every fight just to be able to save any money at all.  So not only am I a noob trying to learn, level and gear up, but I'm also doing it with substandard and broken gear.  I get it, try and tax (upkeep) players with good gear and large piggy banks, but hey dev team, you're shitting all over your new players with this system in a really bad way.  So please consider my comments above.

Also, missile damage in C-RPG is ridiculously low.  Two direct hits on someone in light-med armour should be lights out.  Longbows (designed to penetrate plate armour) should be able to 2-shot plate.  Instead, gotta put 4-6 solid shots into any armour target with bows to bring the enemy down.  I do archery in real life and lemme tell you, my Hungarian riding bow will penetrate chain.  A longbow would come out the other side...  You could offset the amount of damage increase to make the bows more realistic by limiting the number of arrows carried by type and also by their cost.  If each arrow cost (for example) 20 gold, then they would be more careful about shooting, and could carry only so many of them and they could still deal a realistic amount of damage.  So please consider removing upkeep for arrows, and simply make a quiver cost X gold for each type.  I think this is a simple solution to all the arrow-related problems!

Finally, the two-hand sword is complete bullshit.  A real two-hander is a massive, heavy weapon that swings SLOWLY!  I've seen them and they are heavy and slow... I've seen enough posts in the forums to know that the community knows it's an issue - so please fix it.  Whatever your personal biases aside, we all know it's wrong and overpowered.

There' my two-cents worth... There's lots to love in C-RPG.  I'll be playing it for a long time for certain as it's a wonderful piece of work.  Please try and include what I discussed, I think it will make your community much happier and cause lots more people to discover and enjoy the Mod.

[Overdriven]

(click to show/hide)

Sorry devs, but upkeep is too harsh atm.  Needs to be 1/3 less and no upkeep on arrows or bolts (they are consumables!  Just make us buy new ones when we run out at a realistic price point?).  As a new player it's already a challenge (but fun) to save up and get better gear over time.  But after the new patch, the upkeep is soooo harsh that I turn upkeep off and run around with the cheapest but still broken gear every fight just to be able to save any money at all.  So not only am I a noob trying to learn, level and gear up, but I'm also doing it with substandard and broken gear.  I get it, try and tax (upkeep) players with good gear and large piggy banks, but hey dev team, you're shitting all over your new players with this system in a really bad way.  So please consider my comments above.

Also, missile damage in C-RPG is ridiculously low.  Two direct hits on someone in light-med armour should be lights out.  Longbows (designed to penetrate plate armour) should be able to 2-shot plate.  Instead, gotta put 4-6 solid shots into any armour target with bows to bring the enemy down.  I do archery in real life and lemme tell you, my Hungarian riding bow will penetrate chain.  A longbow would come out the other side...  You could offset the amount of damage increase to make the bows more realistic by limiting the number of arrows carried by type and also by their cost.  If each arrow cost (for example) 20 gold, then they would be more careful about shooting, and could carry only so many of them and they could still deal a realistic amount of damage.  So please consider removing upkeep for arrows, and simply make a quiver cost X gold for each type.  I think this is a simple solution to all the arrow-related problems!

Finally, the two-hand sword is complete bullshit.  A real two-hander is a massive, heavy weapon that swings SLOWLY!  I've seen them and they are heavy and slow... I've seen enough posts in the forums to know that the community knows it's an issue - so please fix it.  Whatever your personal biases aside, we all know it's wrong and overpowered.

There' my two-cents worth... There's lots to love in C-RPG.  I'll be playing it for a long time for certain as it's a wonderful piece of work.  Please try and include what I discussed, I think it will make your community much happier and cause lots more people to discover and enjoy the Mod.

I think the upkeep on arrows is to 'replace' lost and broken arrows. It would be a pain in the arse if you had to do that yourself every round. But yes it is still very harsh atm.

As for the heavy 2h, there's an interesting discussion in the historical forum about this at the moment, some people seem to agree that 2h aren't as heavy as you would imagine:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5873.0.html

[Tzar]

Sylvester its a game and balance aint focused around realism also do you get an automatic crosshair infront of you in real life when shooting your bow?

[Sylver]

The crosshairs are really not useful, I lead my targets and usually hit them without the crosshairs anyways... kinda found that off topic and kinda lame. 

As for the arrow upkeep, yeah, I suppose that mechanism could stand in for buying arrows, but I'm more for realism in my games I suppose.

The two handers *are* heavy...  but I know that there are specific ones that are fine edged and move faster than most, but still, I feel most people who play would agree.

Thanks for the comments tho 

[Gorath]

you're shitting all over your new players with this system in a really bad way

Agree with this

Longbows (designed to penetrate plate armour)

They weren't and they also fail(ed) to penetrate plate armor at anything beyond point blank range and were slowed down and blunted enough to be stopped by the padded armor underneath plate.  Do more research if you're going to try and cite realism.
 

I do archery in real life and lemme tell you, my Hungarian riding bow will penetrate chain.  A longbow would come out the other side... 

I do as well as bow hunting is my obsession.  Chain yes because there's damn holes in the metal rings.  lol  2-4 shots to kill someone in mail armor seems a good game balance considering the nature of shooting a gun at someone with a knife.  Remember the operative word:  GAME balance.

Finally, the two-hand sword is complete bullshit.  A real two-hander is a massive, heavy weapon that swings SLOWLY! 

False.  You are a victim of popular fantasy culture brainwashing.  It's ok, it's a common epidemic.
"A 15th century two-handed Federschwert (practice sword) of 51.5 inches in length now at the Swiss National Landesmuseum weighs in at only 3.12lbs (1.415kg). Another warsword there of 48 inches in length weighs 4.63lbs (2.10kg), and an acutely tapered one of a length of 46.7 inches weighs in at only 3.018lbs (1.369kg). By comparison, a single-hand sword of 38-inches in the same collection weighed 3.28lbs (1.495kg)."

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/2HGS.html

In general swords and all manner of melee weaponry are portrayed poorly as heavy and unwieldy.  People wouldn't have used them if they were.
"Medieval swords in general were well-made, light, agile fighting weapons equally capable of delivering dismembering cuts or cleaving deep cavities into the body. They were far from the clumsy, heavy things they're often portrayed as in popular media and far, far more than a mere "club with edges." As another source on arms affirmed: "the sword was, in fact, surprisingly light·.the average weight of swords from the 10th to the 15th centuries was 1.3 kg, while in the 16th century it was 0.9 kg.Even the heavier bastard swords which were used only by second-grade fighting men did not exceed 1.6 kg, while the horse swords known as 'hand-and-a-half' swords weighed 1.8 kg on average.When due allowances are made, these surprisingly low figures also hold good for the enormous two-hand sword, which was traditionally only wielded by 'true Hercules.' Yet it seldom weighed more than 3 kg." (Funcken, Arms, Part 3, p. 26). "

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/weights.htm

"Two-handed sword
(Germany) Fifteenth C.
Length: 1375 mm (54.21 inches)
Blade: 920 mm (36.2 inches)
Weight: 1600 gr (3.5 lbs)

Two-handed sword
(Germany) 1475-1525
Length: 1382 mm (54.40 inches)
Blade: 1055 mm (41.53 inches)
Weight: 1550 gr (3.41 lbs)
(Photo on left)

Two-handed sword
(Germany ) end of Fifteenth C.
Length: 1473 mm (58 inches)
Blade: 1066 mm (41.97 inches)
Weight: 2720 gr (5.99 lbs)

Ceremonial Two-handed sword
(Munich) 1575
Length: 1643 mm (64.69 inches)
Blade: 964 mm (37.95 inches)
Weight: 3500 gr (7.72 lbs)

Ceremonial Two-handed sword
(Germany) end of Sixteenth C.
Length: 1817 mm (71.53 inches)
Blade: 1240 mm (48.81 inches)
Weight: 3970 gr (8.75 lbs)

Ceremonial Two-handed sword
(Germany) end of Sixteenth C.
Length: 1893 mm (74.52 inches)
Blade: 1313 mm (51.69 inches)
Weight: 4830 gr (10.64 lbs)

Ceremonial Two-handed sword
(Germany) end of Sixteenth C.
Length: 1422 mm (55.98 inches)
Blade 1029 mm (40.51 inches)
Weight: 2700 gr (5.95 lbs)
(Photo on left)

Ceremonial Two-handed sword
(Germany) c. 1600
Length: 1275 mm (50.19 inches)
Blade: 1000 mm (39.37 inches)
Weight: 2330 gr (5.1 lbs)

One-and -a-half-handed sword
(Germany) c. 1475-1525
Length: 1153 mm (45.39 inches)
Blade: 932 mm (36.69 inches)
Weight: 1320 gr (2.91 lbs)

Two-handed sword
(Germany) c. 1500
Length: 1340 mm (52.75 inches)
Blade: 955 mm (37.6 inches)
Weight: 1390 gr (3.06 lbs)"

http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2004/jwmaart_shore_1004.htm

Anyways it is always nice hearing from newer players so thank you for that.  And I really do agree that the upkeep/nature of the mod nowadays is pretty lame to new players without 1000000000 gold and 2000 heirlooms/generations.

[Ackwire]

I am a new player.  First Generation and all that.   Been playing for about three weeks now and as a new player I can tell you the upkeep system is balls.   I have a lowly 22k in gear at the moment and I still cannot keep my gear repaired.   If the items are supposed to break infrequently, I cant tell.  Some matches I will have my entire suit of armor break along with a weapon.

I can tell you as a noob, its frustrating to not be able to wear mid tear armor and make cash.  And yes, I suck.  I am comfortable with the fact that I am learning.  So no breaking news there as to why Im constantly in rags.   My single point is that it is very disheartening to have to wear rags and get one shot by folks in plate simply because random breaks in the armor.   What really gives me the red ass is it seems that there is no minimum game time before breaks occur.  So if you play early AM on a server with 12-14 people and the match ends quickly, you just get extorted out of your money because the matches arent long enough. 

I get the upkeep bit and why its "needed" to keep people out of high end armor all the time, but when you cant use mid/low end armor and weps without having to revert to rags for an hour or two something is off.  I don't claim to have the answers or a fix.  But I do know this the current system is not new player friendly at all.   My $0.02

[Bobthehero]

Oh Gorath why do you bother, I quit trying to explain IRL weapons and armor to that bunch of wankers

[Cyclopsided]

Oh Gorath why do you bother, I quit trying to explain IRL weapons and armor to that bunch of wankers

"What, you mean swords were light and armor was not crippling?!!?" - Average person
lol

Anyways, Again, I played tonight and practically printed money. This was probably due to me generating a x5 for 80% of my time played. Upkeep hasn't touched me, so I'm going to start wearing full plate more. I'll be borrowing a certain somebodies lordly for a bit hopefully.;)
Yeah, tonight after buying some Sarranid elite armor + plate mittens and while wearing it I made my money back.

[Bobthehero]

Oh dear sweet mother of god, I want to duel you in heavy armor matey!

[Sylver]

Gorath,

Thanks for the excellent read.  I found it very interesting! However, it's great that you have all this detailed info, but what I guess am trying to say (and more specifically) is that compared to 1H swords (I'm thinking rapiers, longswords and sabres) 2H weaps do weigh more and are slower.  When I see the speed ratings of the weapons in C-RPG, I'm finding it hard to believe that they are as fast or faster than the 1H ones.  Even in the article you provided, it says:

"These parrierhaken or "parrying hooks" act almost as a secondary guard for the ricasso to catch and bind other weapons or prevent them from sliding down into the hands. They make up for the weapon's slowness on the defence and can allow another blade to be momentarily trapped or bound up." 

So it states that they are indeed slower than others... I have had the pleasure of having handled some of these weapons in Germany, (some of which were almost as long as I am tall) and alot of the more common militia-grade weaps were not nearly as exquisite as the ones that were in that article.  Also having fenced while in Europe as well, I can say that a longsword or rapier is lighter and faster than a 2H.  There's simply no denying that.  And that is the problem people are arguing about in CRPG - that the 2Hs are as fast or faster than 1H ones and that combined with their reach and increased damage makes them comparatively OP.

I won't profess to know more about this subject than you, so I'll simply state my perception of 1H vs 2H weaps.   I'll gladly discuss further since I find it so interesting.

Thanks for agreeing with me on the upkeep... it's a real pain when your gear breaks every single battle now and that costs alot of gold, which we noobs simply haven't aquired yet... so we'll just do our best and die more.    *sigh*

[Sylver]

Oh Gorath why do you bother, I quit trying to explain IRL weapons and armor to that bunch of wankers

Bob, given this is my first post, I find this encouraging... do you call everyone in the forums a wanker?  I do appreciate Gorath explaining and citing references.  It's also alot more polite. 

Don't worry though.  No hard feelings. 

[Kafein]

I still think that upkeep doesn't do much other than lessen the amount of fun. People say they don't want to go back to the horrible days of everyone and their mother on a plated charger wearing black plate, but as everyone who knows who played back then...it wasn't like that at all. Also, the nerfs to things like heavy armor and cav would make a situation like that not bad at all anyway.

Finally someone else saying that. I'm relieved 

I think the reason why like everyone is subject to this collective illusion that black armor and plated chargers where rampant pre-january is because a big part of pre-january players quit the game. Nearly no one is objective on this because if you still are here now, you either joined after this patch, and be taught that tincan days were absolutely horrible or you like the upkeep and you keep on telling everyone "everybody was wearing plate back then" all day long, without any fact backing this up.

[Overdriven]

Finally someone else saying that. I'm relieved 

I think the reason why like everyone is subject to this collective illusion that black armor and plated chargers where rampant pre-january is because a big part of pre-january players quit the game. Nearly no one is objective on this because if you still are here now, you either joined after this patch, and be taught that tincan days were absolutely horrible or you like the upkeep and you keep on telling everyone "everybody was wearing plate back then" all day long, without any fact backing this up.

I joined somewhere in October I think it was, and even I know it wasn't that bad. There were players like The Finn ect who had black armour and plated charger, but the vast majority didn't and there really weren't that many plate users. Sure there were more than now, but not that many. I started out as a poorly armoured archer, had my ass owned all over the place. BUT, it felt like you were getting somewhere, levelling and gaining gold for the new equipment. Now I think for a lot of new players there's no real aim or target. chadz was supposed to make it easier for new players, he only succeeded in making it far less fun and a lot harder.

Upkeep probably made sense prejanuary patch to an extent, but after all the patches to balance shit loads of things like archery ect, I don't think it's needed to the scale it is now.

[Kifli]

Sorry devs, but upkeep is too harsh atm.  Needs to be 1/3 less and no upkeep on arrows or bolts (they are consumables!  Just make us buy new ones when we run out at a realistic price point?).  As a new player it's already a challenge (but fun) to save up and get better gear over time.  But after the new patch, the upkeep is soooo harsh that I turn upkeep off and run around with the cheapest but still broken gear every fight just to be able to save any money at all.  So not only am I a noob trying to learn, level and gear up, but I'm also doing it with substandard and broken gear.  I get it, try and tax (upkeep) players with good gear and large piggy banks, but hey dev team, you're shitting all over your new players with this system in a really bad way.  So please consider my comments above.

Also, missile damage in C-RPG is ridiculously low.  Two direct hits on someone in light-med armour should be lights out.  Longbows (designed to penetrate plate armour) should be able to 2-shot plate.  Instead, gotta put 4-6 solid shots into any armour target with bows to bring the enemy down.  I do archery in real life and lemme tell you, my Hungarian riding bow will penetrate chain.  A longbow would come out the other side...  You could offset the amount of damage increase to make the bows more realistic by limiting the number of arrows carried by type and also by their cost.  If each arrow cost (for example) 20 gold, then they would be more careful about shooting, and could carry only so many of them and they could still deal a realistic amount of damage.  So please consider removing upkeep for arrows, and simply make a quiver cost X gold for each type.  I think this is a simple solution to all the arrow-related problems!

Finally, the two-hand sword is complete bullshit.  A real two-hander is a massive, heavy weapon that swings SLOWLY!  I've seen them and they are heavy and slow... I've seen enough posts in the forums to know that the community knows it's an issue - so please fix it.  Whatever your personal biases aside, we all know it's wrong and overpowered.

There' my two-cents worth... There's lots to love in C-RPG.  I'll be playing it for a long time for certain as it's a wonderful piece of work.  Please try and include what I discussed, I think it will make your community much happier and cause lots more people to discover and enjoy the Mod.

I see you are new here so I ll explay in the old days wheen here is no unkeep and a lvl 44 black plate can take down 10 peple just looking at them there are real archers doing 1 shoots across the map whit they long bows , BUT . for some reazon archery get uber mega ultra nerf x2 and now is useles . So I recomend you to get a strong bow and spam as hell .

[Sylver]

I see you are new here so I ll explay in the old days wheen here is no unkeep and a lvl 44 black plate can take down 10 peple just looking at them there are real archers doing 1 shoots across the map whit they long bows , BUT . for some reazon archery get uber mega ultra nerf x2 and now is useles . So I recomend you to get a strong bow and spam as hell .

It must have been pretty bad from what Im seeing on the forums...  so things are at least much better.  Yeah, I started as an archer and am hating it - almost to 30 now so I can retire and choose something better.   Strong bow is helping alot - thanks!

Im seeing crossbow and throwing to be much better than archery, so I'll try that next Gen.

I do like the idea of upkeep, just think it's a bit too much ... maybe a little less will be just right?  And yeah, a level 44 - I like that there's kinda a cap right now and the idea of being able to retire and get an heirloom is sheer genius!  It's a novel solution to the end-game gear problem.