Author Topic: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!  (Read 35701 times)

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Offline mandible/splinteryourjaw

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2011, 05:29:00 pm »
+1
Yes, I'm telling you that. Modern bows use modern materials and light arrows that allow them to reach speeds above 100 m/s even with a relatively low draw weight. Historic longbows with battle arrows shot at 60 m/s (like the crpg mundane longbow at minimum PD), which is already a rather high value. Most tests I saw with historic longbows managed to reach about 170fps(54 m/s). The reason why they had so much draw weight is because they had to shot heavy arrows to defeat armor.

Increasing the draw weight of a one material wooden bow like the long bow doesn't automaticly increase the arrow speed endlessly - even if with lowering the arrow weight. It seems to be limited by "spring speed" of the wooden bow. In fact I read about a draw weight "sweet spot" of about 140 pound for the longbow. After that performance (v0) doesn't increase much. If there really were longbows with 200 pound in use (which I doubt) then their job were to shoot heavy, possibly armor defeating arrows while they weren't able to shoot the lighter arrows of their lower draw weight cousins a lot faster.

One possible exception are historic composite bows. With light flight arrows rather high shot speeds of above 70 m/s should be possible. However with with heavy battle arrows their v0 and thus range is limited as well. Maybe in the future with WSE we might give the option to choose between lighter flight arrows (more speed, less friction), heavier battle arrows(slower, more friction) or hybrids.

Thanks, even though I could be wrong it sounds like you may have read the link I posted.  Regardless I think you misinterpreted the findings.

The draw strength/composition of the bow determines the force applied to the arrow.  The weight/design of the arrow determines flight speed, impact damage, distance, etc.  A low weight arrow does not necessarily mean the arrow can fly further or hit harder/lighter (it also doesn't mean it won't fly further.)  Actually a low weight arrow could have so much force instantly applied to it that it becomes too unstable to take a predictable path.  Throw a straw (which is what arrows have been reduced to) easy and see how far it travels: now throw it really hard (do the same with a paper airplane.)  There is a sweet spot, and you are correct about 140lbs for the longbow, where maximum accuracy/flight path is probably attained for heavy armor piercing arrows.  Bows and arrows were not used for hundreds of years because they were ineffective (as crpg archery is.)  The long bow was designed for heavier penetrating arrows, unlike the turkish bows I referenced in the link.

The flawed video you keep referencing is a historian pretending to be a scientist...his is all theatrics (using the "bear" as an exclamation point) and entertainment.  It doesn't matter if the "bear" shooting the longbow is a professional or a 3 year old girl.  The bow contains/controls the potential energy and as long as the girl can pull it back, she will attain the same speed as a "professional."  Archery is a sport of skill.  The "bear's" advantage over the little girl is his ability to aim on target...HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ARROW SPEED!!!  This is like saying a professional marksman can cause the shot speed of a firearm to attain a higher speed than a novice shooting the same grain weight ammo/powder charge.

So the 60m/s is a great starting shot speed............at 0 pd and 1 wpf.  If you are going to use a mundane, basic, low-end value use it at the mundanist (  :D )basicist, lowest endist position for a beginning archer and since this is a non RL game give credit for each pd and wpf assigned...don't use the value and reduce us back...use it as a starting point.  This means we can never attain anything over mundane as 6pd is a lot of investment points.

You reference RL/modern bows.  In the short time I have been here all I've heard is "we don't want RL" , "this is a game" , "balance is all that is important"  Well since RL (and only a 25-50 year period of it) seems to be a crucial part of making these nerf archery decisions I submit to you that

1.  2h swords could not cut plate and would have a hard time piercing it
2.  nobody and I mean  nobody could throw a jarid 300 yards with pinpoint accuracy
3.  I don't care what you throw there is no way you can throw anything faster than me releasing my arrow
4.  a weapons pierce damage was the only thing effective against armor...so since we are basing our decisions around 2h and their armor; cut damage should be extincted
5.  during the period of the middle ages you reference I would reason to say that all arrows offered pierce damage (as cut would have been extincted; except for hunting...where you don't want to pierce anyway.)
6.  I don't care how athletic you are you couldn't outrun and un-armored guy with your plate on
7.  Horses don't turn on a dime
8.  big, heavy, strong "heroes" couldn't jump in the air, spin, cut your horses head off, and then yours before hitting the ground
9.  Arrows should determine type of damage...cut or pierce
10.  etc. etc. etc......................point being this is a game; one very prejudiced towards melee, but a game none-the-less and balance currently doesn't remotely exist

I know TL:DR but I'm not done yet.  Why are we only concerned with the long bow.  The horn bow and others are just as important.  The reference to modern bows is fine, but I do believe the horn bow was also made of several materials and cured sometimes for years to increase effiency, stability, and effectiveness.  Every bow in inventory was destroyed by this patch, and the horn bow the most (I guess because the griefers complained about it more than any other.)

Your elitist "bear" example holds no water...in other words this whole archery nerf is full of holes!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 05:31:43 pm by mandible/splinteryourjaw »

Offline Chaos

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2011, 12:10:14 am »
0
chadz had nerfed archery shot speeds once before, although not so drastically as this recent patch. He cited his reason for doing so as a test to thin the number of archers, so that skilled archers who could track their targets well could still thrive and noob archers who depended on laser speeds would switch classes. The point of this post being that the shot speed nerf may not be largely for realism's sake, if at all.

Range vs. Range, my yumi bow wielding archer usually wins against the lone crossbowman. With the slight archery buff that will hopefully come for archers once the devs reexamine the patch, these classes may yet balance out overall.

Offline Louise_de_La_Valliere

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2011, 12:33:31 am »
0
good job Elerion! and its hilarious!
I GIVE YOU *EXPLOSION* WHEN YOU CALLED ME ZERO.
LIKE THIS!!
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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2011, 02:20:46 am »
0
Dont nerf the xbowmen, just throw the archers a bone and that will be it.

Then we can focus on the other imbalances, like horsemen manuevarability and all that shit
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Offline owens

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2011, 02:42:21 am »
0
I would like to out line that archers are allowed to carry decent melee weapons i know alot of you think a dedicated archer should be a medieval machine gun, but surely you realise that a dedicated archer build against well armoured opposition in a game that pushes the importance of shields you will die consistently. Why do i become a dickhead for knowing where my strengths are. I have never been an archer on CRPG before but i already know that if you don't hit your enemy in the head they will not drop. It doesn't make sense to me that as archers you would carry a weapon like a hammer wear no armour and get railed every time your team-mates die around you or your faced with a shield. I think in this game a good dedicated archer is an illustrious and false dream even with 10ps you will not get the 1 hits and tin can crushing effect you desire so carry a sword, wear armour and diversify. Alternatively become increasingly frustrated and end up another archer my old friend incapable of holding your own in combat.

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Offline Bulzur

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2011, 03:10:09 am »
0
I would like to out line that archers are allowed to carry decent melee weapons i know alot of you think a dedicated archer should be a medieval machine gun, but surely you realise that a dedicated archer build against well armoured opposition in a game that pushes the importance of shields you will die consistently. Why do i become a dickhead for knowing where my strengths are. I have never been an archer on CRPG before but i already know that if you don't hit your enemy in the head they will not drop. It doesn't make sense to me that as archers you would carry a weapon like a hammer wear no armour and get railed every time your team-mates die around you or your faced with a shield. I think in this game a good dedicated archer is an illustrious and false dream even with 10ps you will not get the 1 hits and tin can crushing effect you desire so carry a sword, wear armour and diversify. Alternatively become increasingly frustrated and end up another archer my old friend incapable of holding your own in combat.

YOUR CHOICE                          evolve or become extinct

WOOT ?  :shock:

So, first thing first. Good archers takes two quivers, to pew-pew more. If you take a 2slot bow, you don't have anymore slots for a "decent melee weapon" other than the hammer.
If you take a 1slot bow, you can take all 1h (shitty reach without a shield, need to block) or the few 1slot 2handers/polearms. Far from being good, they're indeed decent.
Second, if archers don't wear armor, it's because they're too inaccurate with it. And it's not our fault. If we could, we would. But it would make us crossbow range, with less accuracy and less damage.
Third, dedicated archers have 2-3 PS, sometimes 4. If they don't take IF instead. And 0 wpf in melee weapons. Wich means : side weapon breaks 50% of the time.


So yes, you can be unique and take an heavy armor, a good 2h weapon, a 1slot bow and 1slot of arrows. But... you might as well take a 1slot crossbow and bolts, for all you'll do with the bow is... so bad.


If we become extinct (i'm sure we'll not, there's some tough guys who will never surrender archery, even if it becomes crappy) it's because of an overnerf, and not a need to evolve.
This new nerf already made all foot archers 15/24 builds useless, since you need +1 PD than before to have a good arrow speed and less arrow drop. So you'll be a 18/21. And less accuracy, means way more difficult headshots. Wich was the purpose of the strong bow. So you might as well go 21/18 and aim for the body, with a rus bow or longbow.

Another thing with archery, is that the first 2 bows are here just for fun. Since they are totally useless. At least the light crossbow is more used (horse back) than the bow. We have more bow choice, but 3 of them are useless (if not 4 now). Whereas melee can also have fun humiliating an opponent with a practice sword. Try humiliating someone (and not yourself) with a short bow (and not a peasant please).
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 03:11:33 am by Bulzur »
[14:36] <@chadz> when you login there is a message "your life as horse archer was too depressing for you. you decided to commit suicide. please create a new char"
[19:32] <@chadz> if(dave_ukr_is_in_server) then rain_chance = 98%;

Offline owens

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #111 on: July 17, 2011, 03:20:03 am »
0
look how many times do you miss given a longbow fires about 18 per minute that you need 36 arrows.

I understand you cannot fight in melee that is why your a dedicated archer but surely you realise that archers are far from useless at the moment this illusion is fed by archers unwillingness to allow for some melee at all this is crazy.

I don't think light armour like cavalry robe is that bad or that it effects accuracy to a large extent.

if anything the buff archers need is bastard swords being 1 slot.
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #112 on: July 17, 2011, 03:30:22 am »
0
I would like to out line that archers are allowed to carry decent melee weapons i know alot of you think a dedicated archer should be a medieval machine gun, but surely you realise that a dedicated archer build against well armoured opposition in a game that pushes the importance of shields you will die consistently. Why do i become a dickhead for knowing where my strengths are. I have never been an archer on CRPG before but i already know that if you don't hit your enemy in the head they will not drop. It doesn't make sense to me that as archers you would carry a weapon like a hammer wear no armour and get railed every time your team-mates die around you or your faced with a shield. I think in this game a good dedicated archer is an illustrious and false dream even with 10ps you will not get the 1 hits and tin can crushing effect you desire so carry a sword, wear armour and diversify. Alternatively become increasingly frustrated and end up another archer my old friend incapable of holding your own in combat.

YOUR CHOICE                          evolve or become extinct

So the entirety of this post is, archers should defend in melee, and not expect to one shot?

No one says that Archers should one shot...
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
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Offline Rumblood

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #113 on: July 17, 2011, 06:13:23 am »
0
So the entirety of this post is, archers should defend in melee, and not expect to one shot?

No one says that Archers should one shot...

 No, the point of it is that owens has never played an archer in cRPG,yet feels that he is quite the expert in the field anyhow. Certainly he knows more about it than anyone who actually plays the class  :rolleyes:
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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #114 on: July 17, 2011, 06:21:36 am »
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what is your kd than champion archer. I am trying to say that it is not the class that needs a buff people just need to adjust a little. Im not the enemy but whining archers are my enemy.

my kd is 95 kills  to 85 deaths.
this is alright for a new Archer. (about 50% of these kills were made in melee with 11wpf in 2H)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 06:23:21 am by owens »
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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #115 on: July 17, 2011, 09:44:17 am »
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Why would you even mention kills made in melee as an archer?  :|
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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #116 on: July 17, 2011, 09:50:35 am »
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to outline that shooting only is not viable. Hopefully someone can see what I am trying to outline.
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Offline Remy

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #117 on: July 17, 2011, 10:37:17 am »
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Of course shooting is not the only viable option, but as an archer/HA fighting in melee should be a last resort.

Just as when you play cavalry, your goal should not be to dismount and engage in close quarters fighting.
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #118 on: July 17, 2011, 10:38:13 am »
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to outline that shooting only is not viable. Hopefully someone can see what I am trying to outline.
No, the point of it is that owens has never played an archer in cRPG,yet feels that he is quite the expert in the field anyhow. Certainly he knows more about it than anyone who actually plays the class  :rolleyes:
Why would you even mention kills made in melee as an archer?  :|
Of course shooting is not the only viable option, but as an archer/HA fighting in melee should be a last resort.

Just as when you play cavalry, your goal should not be to dismount and engage in close quarters fighting.
I'm not normal and I don't pretend so, my approach is pretty much a bomb crescendo.
Death is a fun way to pass the time though, several little bullets moving in staccato.
The terror of my reign will live on in infamy, singing when they die like a dead man's symphony.

Offline 22nd_Hawk_Cmdr_Harlequin

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Re: Meet the Archer and Crossbowwoman!
« Reply #119 on: July 17, 2011, 12:18:38 pm »
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Just lol, from your post I'd suppose then that dinosaurs deserved to disappear cause they failed at evolving and surviving a meteorite? Lol  :lol: