No, really, what? Cav isn't a real class?

[Bulzur]

40° is a bit harsh. Make it 50°, so that lance cav can at least have decent chances vs aware 1h/shield.

[Shpongled]

I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

Or so I've heard.

Thanks for the reply!

Well it certainly has increased 1h cav feasibility... Now when one catches up to me when I'm reared I can't even turn enough to try and parry his attacks.

having had a chance to play lancer some more, I am slightly reassured and yet distressed at the same time. On the one hand I grant that maybe the full spine-twisting arc was a bit op. If I was on the ball, someone with a shorter weapon really didn't stand a chance. However, this has now been reversed.

A wider angle would make it a lot tighter between lancers and 2h/pole and give us back the advantage over shielders that we deserve.

A further aspect to this nerf is that on an attack run we lancers are confined to a much more restricted trajectory, and are much easier to predict for the ranged we are charging as well as his crowd of ranged buddies, all of whom seem to have a fetish involving horse heads and long pointy objects that fly through the air.

I stand by what I said though. With horse control as a given, the major skill involved in lancing was juggling horse attack run trajectory, lance thrust arc and lance length. We now have less control, as we are forced into a very specific route. Fewer options = restricted skillset.

80% of my kills before were outside the 40 degree window.
 

[Seawied]

I think the change was a step in the right direction, but 40 degrees feels a tad limiting. I think a 50-60 degree limitation would be balanced.

I've actually been getting more kills on my lancer lately. This is most likely because people have been lulled into a false sense of security. Lancers are still viable in the current patch, and I think the vast majority of fellow lancers are making liberal use of hyperbole about the destruction of the class.

Give the patch a shot, and adjust to the new patch. Many of you are quite skilled players and I would not be surprised to see you topping the scoreboards again after you adapt.

[Fandrall]

Give the lancers their attack width back! Its so boring now... Its pretty much dodge first attack, turn, ride behind/beside and pew pew pew the horse down.

Furthermore you guys who thinks lancefighting was like jousting need to study other history than frankish. I bet the frensh knights (Kafein) whined about the agility and attack angles of the middle eastern and eastern cavalry too. I mean how dared they use lighter more agile horses and where's the honor in stabbing or even slashing to the sides with lances! but enough about history...

I say a balanced compromize would be great lance=longer reach and more dmg but narrow attack angle (like it is now for, this is for those who like "western european style" of fighting). Light lance, lance and heavy lance (and all spears!)=shorter reach but wider attack angle when the horse is going at lower speed (like it was before, this is for those who likes "eastern style" of fighting). And before you start saying the heavy lance is to heavy to use in that fashion or its impossible to turn like that if you have a spine consider this:

1. If you stabb a horse that charges straight at you to death it will still hit you for massive damage.
2. Noone can sidestep, backpeddle and swing with full force without loosing balance.
3. A normal person jumps around 50 cm high wearing normal clothes not over 100 cm high in heavy armor while performing a slash/stabb.

If you want to make a medieval fight simulator of this mod that is fine... but then do it for all "classes" and not just for one.

PS: If really skilled lancer players like Torben, Chagan and Ujin (dont know any NA ones...sry) says that alot of the skill involved in the class has been taken away then I belive them. Oh and I wonder why Olwen started a thread about cav everywhere going at infantry http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,10219.msg147929.html#msg147929... Maybe its so because lancers aint killing other cav off anymore.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

Waaaaggghhhhh

I cannot pull off super easy lancing kills any more

QQ

 

Now you will have to learn some skill like the 2h and 1h on horseback users.

Stop claiming cavalry is nerfed because lances are no longer OP. I am cav and I think this new patch is awesome. For me it is a double win because throwing is viable again too! Eat javelins you dirty lancers 

However I may have to refrain from my negative opinion of lancers from now on as fro what I hear it is no longer easy-mode. Welcome to the good fight 

[Ujin]

Sigh

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It's still not that hard to get kills, but what we're trying to say is that this patch is actually a big hit on infantry, cause cav vs cav fights are either too boring or too risky now , so cav just ignore each other and attack infantry.
I'd suggest trying 50-60 degrees limit for lancers, might be reasonable enough to satisfy both sides .

[Trikipum]

With all due respect, Spongled, I must disagree, but only on some points.

Firstly, cav was nerfed, directly and indirectly:
1) Lance radius
2) Horse HP (AFAIK)
3) More projectiles
4) Buffed projectiles



Cav was buffed in the following ways:
1) Lance is faster
2) HA nerf

That's about it. Although annoying to not be able to take out pikes from horseback, it's still possible to get a good score. I was 14;1, then 18;3 on the NA server as cav just a few minutes ago. However not a "blow you out of the water" score, it's still possible to do exceptionally well as cav, if you play it right. But As far as the lance radius, give it back to us. I think it's fair. People can dodge us too easily now. And with the increase in projectiles... I think we should be allowed to take out some of them.


EDIT: Repair costs = bullshit for everyone. Give 'em back please.

actually, what you call "buff" in the lance is actually a nerf XD. The speed improvement only helps the guys with little wpf in polearms. Pure polearms with full wpf on it have a hard time timing their attacks. This causes less damage and less range in most of times, at least until they master it. But it will be hard since its so fast.... you will hit as you did before, but you will get much worse damage outputs.

[Reinhardt]

I forgot about the increase cost of being cav and the other nerfs.

But yes, cav is mostly about taking out unaware enemies... I've been cav for who knows how many generations, pretty much since I've started cRPG, which was almost since the beginning.

A faster lance, while decreasing the amount of time you have TO lance people effectively, increases the damage. The increase in cost for cavalry is complete bullshit anyway now, as even the 20k horse (courser) gets 2-shotted by even the new arrows.

But regardless, people have adapted to cavalry before, and the speed increase does give a higher damage output.

[Trikipum]

I forgot about the increase cost of being cav and the other nerfs.

But yes, cav is mostly about taking out unaware enemies... I've been cav for who knows how many generations, pretty much since I've started cRPG, which was almost since the beginning.

A faster lance, while decreasing the amount of time you have TO lance people effectively, increases the damage. The increase in cost for cavalry is complete bullshit anyway now, as even the 20k horse (courser) gets 2-shotted by even the new arrows.

But regardless, people have adapted to cavalry before, and the speed increase does give a higher damage output.

but the damage just doesnt take in account the speed of the weapon, also takes in account the moment where it hits, and you get worse damage when your lance its not released completly, which is much harder now, since its much faster, meaning you likely will get closer to release the thrust at high speed. I have noticed it even having a very poor wpf in polearms, its taking me 3 hits to kill a light guy, when it was 2 most of times before.

[[ptx]]

Don't forget that the way armor works has been changed - this means that you are far less likely to kill in one hit with the lance.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

Even the courser gets killed in two hits by arrows?!?!?!

You mean the horse that is meant to sacrifice toughness for speed is not tough?!

Ye gods!

[Trikipum]

I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

Or so I've heard.

chadz, im a cavalry 1h player who usually play on feet coz i cant afford playing with "decent stuff", not beeing farming much too lately but that is another history.

As a cavalry player, i always use to bring a lance with me, just feel natural (actually ive been using heavy lance with 1wpf and killing ppl, now i got 40 wpf) having a lance to show your teeth to other pure lancers, killing skilled ppl using couching, or agresive movements. Using angles to take other cavmen was also an option.
Ive played more on foot than in my horse lately and i though the balance was cool.

I actually have killed  many skilled cav men just using my slavona while they were using lances, and that was posible coz they took the challenge as i did. I was well aware of them, and while they had a clear advantage, knowing how it works also gives you some chances.
In the end i have killed many skilled cav men from the ground using just a slavona and a shield, that is not posible anymore, coz they just dont come if you are aware of them. Instead you get killed in any direction but face to face. That is the most annoying about cav kills in my opinion. And it it was 50%, now its 90%. On the other hand, in cluster fucks the cavalry still kills the cavalry, but when the numbers are small, its just too cheap, boring and lame. It can stall a game for minutes. Since if one of the cav man doesnt want to get killed, he wont aslong he has some skill. With the old system all was faster and much more deadly. Now a horse can follow another and the guy leading just wont try to turn against the enemy and try a side thrust to kill the pursuing  guy coz he has crystal hips, not like the HA who are 12yo flexible girls trained in the old soviet union. It just removes the fun of horses, makes a weird diferentiation between HA and lancer. Not just that the HA can turn freely his body, but that 2 horsemen cant kill a single HA playing as a team anymore. And that last part is the lamest of them all.Salute.

[Game_Blouses]

I was going to post this before the patch but I'll post it here now.

I really think any class should have a counter-class for purposes of game balance.

The most obvious one for Cav is pike and pikemen. Their ability to kill your horse and you in one thrust if not stop you and your mount dead in your tracks was crazy dangerous and you had to use skill to defeat them or sneak up on them. 

However, the ability to stop your horse dead in its tracks has been extended to any polearm.  Should a shortened spear *really* be able to stop you? Let's say for argument sake this is fair because of the relatively few dedicated pikemen and the prevalence of horses.

However, what I was going to complain about before this patch is that fact that just about anything but an archer was able to slaughter our horse by sidestepping and performing a poke attack.  Two handed swordsmen could outright stop a charging horse and because of your speed this usually meant your horse died and you got dumped right by a spammer.

It felt like I was relegated to killing unskilled players, archers, or people I managed to sneak up on and of course, other Cav.

Now after the patch my horse (a course) apparently disintegrates if the enemy team looks at it.  The buff to archery and throwing, combined with the limitations of the lancing angle means that now anyone can easily kill my mount as I charge them leaving me dumped at their feet.

I really find that I have to sneak up on people and/or engage people already in melee.

On top of this we have to pay for ridiculously expensive mounts and their repairs.  This is an additional repair cost no other class (besides HA) has to juggle.

The problem I see with this is as previously mentioned this is a game not a medieval combat simulator.  If we are going to make it realistic, make it realistic across the board.  While it may be realistic that a peasant with a pike or a longbowman could punch through heavy armor and kill an armored knight on a horse, they usually did so behind set pikes.  People (throwers, archers, 2handers, etc.) should not be able to instantly stop a several hundred pound animal dead in its track with a simple poke.

I feel because of changes in patch, this is the ridiculous nature of what Lancing Cav has been reduced to.

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[Devilize]

I think the reason was to increase 1h cav and make cav lancing more skill based and less yoga based.

Or so I've heard.

Spoken by someone who clearly has no understanding for cav.

[Kafein]

I played a bit more and I got some elements to correct my views. First, the main goal was to promote 1h cav. It's successful as lance cav lost the reach advantage. But 1h cav is still really hard to play vs inf. That aspect didn't changed. It even got worse with the armor changes, but I will get back to that later. Now a 2h vs lance cav in optimal conditions (perfect timing of both, flat terrain, duel...) will see the 2h win. It's the same for many polearms, with a jumpslash. Yet it's no better for 1h cav. So this was a flat cav nerf, as 1h cav is still IMO worse than lance cav, except with unsustainable horses. To counter that nerf, reducing horse upkeep seems logical to me.


Now, about the armor changes. At first I thought it wouldn't really interfere with cav lancing. In fact it's not. Now about everyone I could onehit with a lance doesn't die from the first hit. And if you played cavalry you know you aren't that likely to hit someone twice. I guess it's the same for 1h cav, or maybe even worse due to the cut damage. This change also indirectly nerfed the mw bec I use. Not that I'm whining on that. I guess it was OP when I could reliably 2 shot medium armor people.


But about the lance cav, I think I'll change class if my opinion doesn't change for some reason. I seem to make like a tenth of the effect I did on the battlefield before the patch so I will probably stop with the horse and get an armor instead, it seems to me it's better for the amount of gold spent now. And I like being a pikeman or 1h footman too so I don't care about doing that lightly.