Cavalry changes discussion (Version 0.230)

[Nihtgenga]

Looks like rage against cav because people don't know how to kill them...cav weren't OP in the slightest.  But I'll hold my mouth and see how it all turns out before I comment.

since when does chad or anyone of the developer team care about rage and how easy they find it to kill cav?

I wrote a post in another thread recently about why cavalry players top the scoreboards:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,9890.msg144126.html#msg144126

This stupid uncalled nerf to lance rotation doesn't make ANY change to why lancers top the scoreboard. I could top the scoreboard even with a 10 degree lance rotation...
They cRPG team would have been way better off by posting a sticky thread in the forums about HOW TO NOT GETTING KILLED BY CAVALRY:

- Don't go alone.
- Look around you.
- Learn to jump a side.
- Learn to downblock.
- Learn to thrust.

Is that so hard to learn? No, it is kind of easy.



It is now ONLY about backstabbing unaware infantry.

But lately a whole train of cavs were running straight at you even if you jump the first, second will knock you down and the 3rd kill you.
just try to spawn 30 seconds late on a open field map on food. you will know what I mean.

and the backstabbing? 90 % of the lancing cav was doing that allready pre patch

[Trikipum]

I think people forget 1h cavalry even exists. I always saw it this way:

Lancers = Ninja backstabbing
1h Heavy Cavalry = Close quarter fight and infantry support
Horse Archers = Harassing lone players behind enemy lines

In my opinion it brings more variety to the battlefield now. You can't kill skilled players with a lance 1vs1? Nobody said the lance had to be the best weapon in the game that enables the user to kill everyone else. I think people got so used to the notion of lancing and its universality that they forgot its not a close quarters weapon. No, I don't think you should be able to backstab a player behind you with a 2m long lance, it doesn't make any sense. That's what 1h weapons are for. I'm not even going into the realism argument saying that lances should only be used once.

I hope after the patch we will see a lot more 1h or 1h/lance hybrid cavalry. Especially after (as you said: "Lance to lance duels from horseback are also kind of spoiled because of this nerf"). Nobody forces you to take only a lance. Remember, you have 4 slots to use, take a good sword +shield and fighting enemy horsemen will be a lot easier.

See. Ive been playing 1h/lance for my whole crpg time (basically since the beginning of crpg) and you are showing your ignorance about horses. First, you wont see more 1h/lancers hybrids around, coz now its much worse even for those.
You fail to see that 1h horsemen need strong horses or they are on the ground in no time. Lancers need the lance to keep enemies away so their horses can be light and have some chances to survive.
Now. you may see some ppl doing 1h horsemen but that will last few days until they figure you need like twice the skill to kill unaware players than with a lance and have no chances against any aware enemy. On top of that add that being an hybrid horseman is the most expensive class and not the most deadly.
Dunno what problem you had with horses, Im bored of killing them with a single stab with my 1h while on foot. Now its even easier.

[Trikipum]

since when does chad or anyone of the developer team care about rage and how easy they find it to kill cav?


But lately a whole train of cavs were running straight at you even if you jump the first, second will knock you down and the 3rd kill you.
just try to spawn 30 seconds late on a open field map on food. you will know what I mean.

and the backstabbing? 90 % of the lancing cav was doing that allready pre patch

Yes, a whole train of arrows would hit at you also, and you would dodge the first one but .... or a train of two handers spamming the shit of you... or a train of 1 handers raping you....or what about being hit by flying crap so fast that it seems like you just were hit by mg fire?. do you actually play crpg?.

[SkyrayFox]

You fail to see that 1h horsemen need strong horses or they are on the ground in no time. Lancers need the lance to keep enemies away so their horses can be light and have some chances to survive.

I agree.

Now. you may see some ppl doing 1h horsemen but that will last few days until they figure you need like twice the skill to kill unaware players than with a lance and have no chances against any aware enemy.

Basically you want to bring back easy mode. Shame on you. There are more ways to solve this problem.

On top of that add that being an hybrid horseman is the most expensive class and not the most deadly.

I don't see how equipment cost fits into all of this. If I'm playing a tincan infantry surely I want to have some advantage in armor over normal players. Yes ? Whether or not it's deadly is solely dependent on player's skill.

Dunno what problem you had with horses, Im bored of killing them with a single stab with my 1h while on foot. Now its even easier.

I agree, most of the horses are very easy to kill and the ones that are only suitable for close quarter fights are plated chargers and warhorses. There should me more cheaper heavy but less maneuverable horses to fill that gap. I just don't think returning to 'lance stabs' is the way to go.

[buba]

I think people forget 1h cavalry even exists. I always saw it this way:

Lancers = Ninja backstabbing
1h Heavy Cavalry = Close quarter fight and infantry support
Horse Archers = Harassing lone players behind enemy lines

In my opinion it brings more variety to the battlefield now. You can't kill skilled players with a lance 1vs1? Nobody said the lance had to be the best weapon in the game that enables the user to kill everyone else. I think people got so used to the notion of lancing and its universality that they forgot its not a close quarters weapon. No, I don't think you should be able to backstab a player behind you with a 2m long lance, it doesn't make any sense. That's what 1h weapons are for. I'm not even going into the realism argument saying that lances should only be used once.

I hope after the patch we will see a lot more 1h or 1h/lance hybrid cavalry. Especially after (as you said: "Lance to lance duels from horseback are also kind of spoiled because of this nerf"). Nobody forces you to take only a lance. Remember, you have 4 slots to use, take a good sword +shield and fighting enemy horsemen will be a lot easier.

Wait what? HA only harassing lone players?
I am not a pro player, better yet ive got 100 hours or so in mainly playing AH.
What i found out and started to love about HA is they can play many roles at once.
I never topped the score boards (only a handfull of AH was ever able to) but we did bring "pressure" to the battle field.

And sure if someone was stupid enough to wander of alone then yea ill chase that person.
But its not by far what it was to be a AH, really so if you worked together as a team like i had the pleasure of doing with the GK clan up until now.

[Overdriven]

HA is being fixed in the hotfix...here's what Paul said:

Nature of hotfix: due to the fact that a veteran horse archer spends most of his time shooting from (moving) horseback, he is alot better at shooting while riding compared to a footarcher. However he is not as good as a dedicated footarcher at shooting while standing still - even with with similar wpf.

Another advise from experienced horse archers to beginners is that the first level of horse archery is just a stepping stone and higher levels are needed to see results.

[SkyrayFox]

Wait what? HA only harassing lone players?
I am not a pro player, better yet ive got 100 hours or so in mainly playing AH.
What i found out and started to love about HA is they can play many roles at once.
I never topped the score boards (only a handfull of AH was ever able to) but we did bring "pressure" to the battle field.

And sure if someone was stupid enough to wander of alone then yea ill chase that person.
But its not by far what it was to be a AH, really so if you worked together as a team like i had the pleasure of doing with the GK clan up until now.

Never said only harassing lone players. Obviously if I said archer's primary role is to engage the enemy from a distance it doesn't mean there are archers who can't (or won't) fight infantry in close combat.

[Trikipum]

I agree.

Basically you want to bring back easy mode. Shame on you. There are more ways to solve this problem.

I don't see how equipment cost fits into all of this. If I'm playing a tincan infantry surely I want to have some advantage in armor over normal players. Yes ? Whether or not it's deadly is solely dependent on player's skill.

I agree, most of the horses are very easy to kill and the ones that are only suitable for close quarter fights are plated chargers and warhorses. There should me more cheaper heavy but less maneuverable horses to fill that gap. I just don't think returning to 'lance stabs' is the way to go.

Easy mode? hahaha. See, i played with 50wpf in polearms for more than a year and could kill many many aware ppl and other pure "lancers". You call that easy mode?. If i wanted easy mode i just would do a 1h 24/15 and use my military pick and MW slavona. That would be really fun and i would kill x2 or x3, even having that posiblity i just prefer having a warrior that can ride a horse and use a lance to a certain point and that is good enough on ground to grant me some nice kills. For me a game called mount and blade should be played using a mount and a blade, even if i dont use the horse in months (as i did before) i always have the posiblity there with my main. Btw ill repeat you again. Btw, now is easier for my game style., just more boring and less skilled focus. You still dont see that, and i believe is coz you dont know about horses. Horse lancers, (my main treat before) are just turned into jokes that couldnt beat me if i didnt want to. Why? coz they just cant get the angles to kill an aware horsemen that has some decent control of their horses. They could trick me before and kill me . But now that is not a posiblity for them if i dont allow them to do so. On the other hand the couching is a more viable option and since i had so little wpf i used it alot, specially to kill other horsemen. Now its just a head on, where the lancer guy has no advantage on me. How you call that easy mode, are you even aware of the game's mechanics?.....

[Nihtgenga]

Yes, a whole train of arrows would hit at you also, and you would dodge the first one but .... or a train of two handers spamming the shit of you... or a train of 1 handers raping you....or what about being hit by flying crap so fast that it seems like you just were hit by mg fire?. do you actually play crpg?.

wrong.
against archers I can hide behind a tree. they are mostly far away and need a long time flank me.
furthermore. if I notice archer shooting me I still have some time getting cover, even if one arrow hits me.
but if I try to cover from cav it is way more difficult. if one just bumps me, I am mostly dead as the rest will kill me before I can get up.

plus. if I am a shielder archers cant do shit. cav can.

2h I can retreat, cav I cant as they are to fast.
1h I can retreat.

I can be aware like shit and all that. if 2 or 3 cav pick you out, ur dead most of the times. if 2 or 3  2hers or 1hers pick you out you can still get away, if you see them coming early enough. but a horde on arabic warhorses?
 
HAVE YOU ever played crpg?

[PhantomZero]

wrong.
against archers I can hide behind a tree. they are mostly far away and need a long time flank me.
furthermore. if I notice archer shooting me I still have some time getting cover, even if one arrow hits me.
but if I try to cover from cav it is way more difficult. if one just bumps me, I am mostly dead as the rest will kill me before I can get up.

plus. if I am a shielder archers cant do shit. cav can.

2h I can retreat, cav I cant as they are to fast.
1h I can retreat.

I can be aware like shit and all that. if 2 or 3 cav pick you out, ur dead most of the times. if 2 or 3  2hers or 1hers pick you out you can still get away, if you see them coming early enough. but a horde on arabic warhorses?
 
HAVE YOU ever played crpg?

plus, if you are a spearmen, cav cant do shit, and archers can.

HAVE YOU ever played cRPG?

[Nihtgenga]

I was saying that there were too many cavs around (trains ;-))

if you got 3 horseman coming at you, you cant do fucking shit with your spear? do I have to draw a picture?

[Tzar]

1- Don't go alone.
2- Look around you.
3- Learn to jump a side.
4- Learn to downblock.
5- Learn to thrust. .

1.Kinda impossible on some of the huge maps...
2.pointless since u cant hear the horse plus take into account the speed and manoeuvre on some horses
3.again speed and manoeuvre was/is still a bit overkill its not hard to guess..
4.u cant block a formula 1 race horse commin at u rdy to couch your ass
5.not valid since nothing but the long pikes/polearms has a chance of hitting the rider/horse before impact the slot system kinda ruined that option

[Overdriven]

5.not valid since nothing but the long pikes/polearms has a chance of hitting the rider/horse before impact the slot system kinda ruined that option

Man even I can stick my espada into a horse with a thrust most of the time and I have no wpf or PS in it. It's really not that hard 

[Nihtgenga]

Man even I can stick my espada into a horse with a thrust most of the time and I have no wpf or PS in it. It's really not that hard 

doesnt help if he kills you with the next stroke, as your thrust will not stop the horse ;-)

[Trikipum]

wrong.
against archers I can hide behind a tree. they are mostly far away and need a long time flank me.
furthermore. if I notice archer shooting me I still have some time getting cover, even if one arrow hits me.
but if I try to cover from cav it is way more difficult. if one just bumps me, I am mostly dead as the rest will kill me before I can get up.

plus. if I am a shielder archers cant do shit. cav can.

2h I can retreat, cav I cant as they are to fast.
1h I can retreat.

I can be aware like shit and all that. if 2 or 3 cav pick you out, ur dead most of the times. if 2 or 3  2hers or 1hers pick you out you can still get away, if you see them coming early enough. but a horde on arabic warhorses?
 
HAVE YOU ever played crpg?

well, actually is easier to avoid horses than archer fire. You can also use a tree to hide from a horse or 3 . Actually pivoting the tree is a nice strategy vs horses. And btw, when you get hit by 1 arrow and more than 1 archer is focusing you, you rarely make it alive so ... Do you read and thing before even posting?. If you want we can use crippled horses that ride wheelchairs and then we can ride on top of that so inf can flee if needed.
Btw im a shielder also. And i kill horses like nothing with a fucking 1h sword in 1 hit with a 18 str build....That is up to destriers, bigger horses arent killeable with 1 stab from a 1h. But you rarely see those anyway. Indeed i love dueling lonely horseman when im on foot, coz in my experience the chances of killing the rider are higher than the guy killing me, even if that guy has a polearm.........and that is with 1h... just dont ask about 2h and polearms coz using those to kill horses require little skill and just  some reflexes.