Nerfing xbow/bow shoot speed by 31% next patch is too extreme

[[ptx]]

DaveUKR started this! 

[Paul]

Because of a commendable lobbying effort performed by DaveUKR who was outraged by the fact that currently a longbow shoots faster projectiles than his beloved MW arbalest, we decided to do some research about real bow starting velocities and came to the conclusion that 60m/s is a good value for longbow at minimum PD. This value is at 80m/s in the current version. So all bows got a more realistic v0, including the PD bonus they receive to speed. In compensation the accuracy of bows were increased.

Less shot speed, more accu -> player skill more important. Of course alot of players can't accept this.

[Astinus]

well since we had flying carpet, the old saying "don't use real life arguments" is sadly over.

We'll see what will change, but every thing that can potentially make range spam less deadlier is always welcomed, especially when strategus will hit

[Bramd]

Because of a commendable lobbying effort performed by DaveUKR who was outraged by the fact that currently a longbow shoots faster projectiles than his beloved MW arbalest, we decided to do some research about real bow starting velocities and came to the conclusion that 60m/s is a good value for longbow at minimum PD. This value is at 80m/s in the current version. So all bows got a more realistic v0, including the PD bonus they receive to speed. In compensation the accuracy of bows were increased.

Less shot speed, more accu -> player skill more important. Of course alot of players can't accept this.

That's fine, if you're going for realism...  But then the next step would be making it so horses can't turn on a dime, and if cav runs into something at high speed they have a 50% chance of being thrown from the horse with a 10% chance of dying on impact...  That would be more realistic as well...  And certainly highlight the skill of the cav that can avoid running into things at high speed.

[cmp]

That's fine, if you're going for realism...

Maybe you missed the part where he says the purpose of it is making player skill count more.

[Bramd]

Maybe you missed the part where he says the purpose of it is making player skill count more.

And maybe you missed the part where he said "So all bows got a more realistic v0."

[[ptx]]

And maybe you missed the part where he said "So all bows got a more realistic v0."

Maybe you missed the part where he says the purpose of it is making player skill count more.

[Bramd]

Maybe you missed the part where he says the purpose of it is making player skill count more.

I think the part I missed is where archers are so overpowered they need some sort of nerf.  I don't play an archer mind you...  But I don't really see them as too much of a problem...  They're an annoyance, and once in a while a good one comes around and takes your head off.  How is that a problem that needs fixing...  As it is only the most skilled archers in a server are even coming close to the top of the team.  So you're nerfing something that's not overpowered, in an effort to make it more skill based, while referencing making it more realistic, and leaving alone things that are less skill based and more powerful and less realistic.  I'm not trying to troll, I'm really trying to figure out how this is the logical solution to anything.

[Thomek]

Less shot speed, more accu -> player skill more important. Of course alot of players can't accept this.

I remember you've said something similar about throwing a long time ago. I'm not sure if I agree on this however.
For a target moving in a direct line relative to the shooter, projectile flight time will of course increase the "skill" required to be able to hit. In this scenario you are right.

For a target that try to avoid, or even just maneuvers a little, (Read-everyone that is aware of being shot at + everyone else that maneuvers for some reason.) lower projectile speed makes it far more "random" (since it becomes a game of prediction of future moves, even if aim, leading and timing is perfect.)

So more than skill, this suggestion would require being able to look into the future rather than leading in most cases.

This leads to more team-hits, and is also a powerful indirect buff to cavalry. (Since archers seems to have big problems hitting them even now..)

At least such a change should go hand in hand with a maneuverability nerf to cav. (Since they would be nearly impossible to hit at distance)

[[ptx]]

You have to start with something, right?

And, yeah, it IS possible to predict enemy movement in most cases. Although i do fear Cav being buffed a ton by this. Though i am looking forward to the increased accuracy.
Shot speed nerf seems HUGE, but i guess there are other changes that will accompany this, so IMHO, it is a bit too early to make any ASSumptions about this.

[Bulzur]

Be happy Thomek, you and your ninjas will finally be able to dodge 90% of the arrows (10% are lucky shots, shit happens). 

Medieval Mortar teams here we go!

Do our arrows finally have some spash damage ? That would be funny.

In a more serious note, i wouldn't mind archery requiring more skill. But the way i see this reduction in projectile speed, is actually to allow all skilled infantry to dodge arrows. So to be a good range, you'll need skill, for the curve trajectory, and luck. And i agree that the only viable build for foot archers will be a 9 PD built. Since i alreaady need 3-4 arrows with my strongbow for medium armored infantry, but every first time i shoot them, they'll look around. Maybe take a second arrow before spotting me ("oh, look at this beautiful slow curve, the archer shooting at me is obviously there") and will take no more, while gently travelling his way to the archer location.

And once all archers will have their 9 PD build, and only need 2 arrows to kill people, we'll still get a big wave of protest from thoses infantry, unaware, but it's basically not their fault.

Also, why do you listen to an xbow lobbyist to "balance" archery ? Since when do you value realism so much over balance ? When will wounded infantry and horse be crippled and move 30% more slowly per 40% health missing ?


Edit for above : Who cares about accuracy. All dedicated archers have already enough now. -_- We'll clearly have to change our foot archer 15/24 build into a 21/18 one to be usefull again. Goodby slow strongbow.

[Keshian]

Because of a commendable lobbying effort performed by DaveUKR who was outraged by the fact that currently a longbow shoots faster projectiles than his beloved MW arbalest, we decided to do some research about real bow starting velocities and came to the conclusion that 60m/s is a good value for longbow at minimum PD. This value is at 80m/s in the current version. So all bows got a more realistic v0, including the PD bonus they receive to speed. In compensation the accuracy of bows were increased.

Less shot speed, more accu -> player skill more important. Of course alot of players can't accept this.

Actually less skill if it give easier accuracy.  But what you actually haven't worked out is how much damage gets reduced, any arrow shot mid-to long range will practically bounce on anything above 10 armor.  So the only shots worth shooting will be close range, so the skill of angling shots at longer range than face-hug disappears as there is no point to wasting an arrow that only takes 1/20th of someone's health.  80m/s???? really how do you come up with this made up number for what it is in-game as the game doesn't use stats like that.  If you are really balancing then all the xbows other than arbalest would have less shoot speed than a longbow, instead of them all going to be higher now.  And throwing weapons that can shoot 1 a second will have almost as much shoot speed as the bows, really I can throw as hard as a bow????  Where is the reality in that?

Where are you getting the idea that archers are OP??  The only thing proliferating are 1 wpf meleers who have enough gold to shoot xbows too.  Why this sudden MASSIVE nerf to one of the most nerfed and weakest classes in the games.  Do you want horses to be invulnerable to archers because they barely go faster than a courser's speed?  And really this stupid example of a destrier comapred to longbow is inherently flawed, its a courser compared toa  longbow and 6 powerdraw to 6 riding - longbow will only be 1.5x to 2x the speed of a horse, thats utterly unrealistic.

[Arrowblood]

low shotspeed to the longbow is just gay. END

[Beans]

Where is this 31% lower speed coming from? You quoting one of the devs from IRC or something?

31% slower projectile speed is going to make archers a fucking joke. As a cav it is already easy as fuck to dodge arrows from archers by just doing the most braindead of course/speed changes. With 31% slower arrow speed I won't even have to bother changing course, I can just slow down occasionally and they will miss because they have to aim so fucking far ahead. With slower arrows speed your are going to relegate archers to only shooting at other archers because they are stationary, and people going in a straight line up ladders.


Just to make this clear: I fucking hate archers and still think that this nerf is terrible



edit: Shit is going to be hilarious when the next patch buffs throwing(allegedly) and then totally shits on archery so everyone goes melee and throwing again

[Peasant_Woman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPcyGjYZmc&#t=0m40s

You've never been so concerned with historical accuracy before, why now?