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cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bulzur on July 08, 2011, 02:02:54 am

Title: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Bulzur on July 08, 2011, 02:02:54 am
Title means everything.
After feeling cav was overpowered, and hearing all cav players countering my balance arguments with a "buy a pike", i retired and bought a pike, with my polearm user. And... i still feel cav is overpowered.

So yes, i basically survive longer than the rest of the team wich gets picked off by the ennemy cav, no, i can't do anything against HA, yes, two synchro cav can kill me. I understand all that, and even if i'd like it to change, it's not the worse.

When i finally meet a noob cav, or manage to hit his horse thanks to pretending be afk, i'm happy. But the horse is still alive (8 PS), so i do another thrust to the head of the horse, to definitely kill it. And... surprise ! BLOCK ! How can horsemen protect their horse by simply downblocking ? It's completely silly. And thanks to their stupid maneuver, they can run away just like that. Now you mustn't stop them once with a pike, you must stop them at least twice, or have archer support that doesn't die.

I'm not suggesting anything, cause i'm pretty sure this stupid hitblock is hardcoded and comes from Talesworld, and i'm sure we'll hear complains from cavs for 2 all years if you prevent them from blocking. But i'd like to have some dicussion with all thoses players out there. Thoses who do their best against cav, but it's sometimes just not enough. And hopefully some not-too-biaised point of view from cav player.

Currently, all the funny/raging things that can happen :
-good maneuver horses can evage ranged attacks at mid-range
-good lance cav can couch you in 2sec, and thrust two consecutive times in 3sec.
-good maneuver horses stay maximum 2sec "stunned" when they run into a wall, or a pike. They're out of reach in a bit more than 2 attacks.
-slow horses can bump you twice, while staying on you.
-all horses can jump over your pike, taking you by surprise, and you sometimes not having the time to reach in the air. Pretty usefull to reach that archer behind the pikeman.
-if you jump off a cliff 3km high on your horse, your horse will die but you will just be on the ground 2sec, with no damage.
-horsemen can protect their horses from some melee hits by blocking the right direction.
-when your horse dies, you'll fall, sometimes slide on a few meters, or even teleport bug to a different place that where people think you are, and switch weapon/bring a shield while being smashed on the ground. Don't ask me how you do that, i'm still trying to figure it out.
-when a pikeman stops your horse, you can actually still stab him, sometimes killing him. Works with a 1hander slash too, providing good timing/luck.
-when succesfully killing a horseman charging you, without hurting the horse, the horse still bumps you, and can even kill you. When that happens, it counts as if it's the player that killed you, and not a random horse.
-you can chamber lances with a good overhead or thrust with a good timing, but you'll always be out of range anyway if the cav is not too bad. So just downblock for the same effect, less dangerous.
-you succesfully slaughter an horse, thrust once the fallen rider (no pun intended), to see finally Torb... the rider (now footman) walk up with a poleaxe or whatever, and still slaughtering you. Then, he goes in a rampage after succesfully being on foot behind the all team, killing archers, etc... You did a fine job pikeman.


If you find any others, tell me, and i'll add them to the list. All thoses wonderful memories. About cav being balanced.


Spoiler for moderators :
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: nuffen on July 08, 2011, 02:42:23 am
Pike on horse is using an exploit, and if an admin catch you using it, you might end up finding another game to play.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 02:45:37 am
Stab the horse at a lower spot to avoid them blocking with a downblock (lower then the legs of the rider), or simply stab the very rump of the horse.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Dehitay on July 08, 2011, 02:48:02 am
Pike on horse is using an exploit, and if an admin catch you using it, you might end up finding another game to play.
That was kind of random. Did a post get deleted before I could read it or something?
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: polkafranzi on July 08, 2011, 03:04:48 am
you sound like kesh
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Rhaelys on July 08, 2011, 03:08:13 am
Title means everything.
After feeling cav was overpowered, and hearing all cav players countering my balance arguments with a "buy a pike", i retired and bought a pike, with my polearm user. And... i still feel cav is overpowered.

So yes, i basically survive longer than the rest of the team wich gets picked off by the ennemy cav, no, i can't do anything against HA, yes, two synchro cav can kill me. I understand all that, and even if i'd like it to change, it's not the worse.

When i finally meet a noob cav, or manage to hit his horse thanks to pretending be afk, i'm happy. But the horse is still alive (8 PS), so i do another thrust to the head of the horse, to definitely kill it. And... surprise ! BLOCK ! How can horsemen protect their horse by simply downblocking ? It's completely silly. And thanks to their stupid maneuver, they can run away just like that. Now you mustn't stop them once with a pike, you must stop them at least twice, or have archer support that doesn't die.

I'm not suggesting anything, cause i'm pretty sure this stupid hitblock is hardcoded and comes from Talesworld, and i'm sure we'll hear complains from cavs for 2 all years if you prevent them from blocking. But i'd like to have some dicussion with all thoses players out there. Thoses who do their best against cav, but it's sometimes just not enough. And hopefully some not-too-biaised point of view from cav player.

Currently, all the funny/raging things that can happen :
-good maneuver horses can evage ranged attacks at mid-range
-good lance cav can couch you in 2sec, and thrust two consecutive times in 3sec.
-good maneuver horses stay maximum 2sec "stunned" when they run into a wall, or a pike. They're out of reach in a bit more than 2 attacks.
-slow horses can bump you twice, while staying on you.
-all horses can jump over your pike, taking you by surprise, and you sometimes not having the time to reach in the air. Pretty usefull to reach that archer behind the pikeman.
-if you jump off a cliff 3km high on your horse, your horse will die but you will just be on the ground 2sec, with no damage.
-horsemen can protect their horses from some melee hits by blocking the right direction.
-when your horse dies, you'll fall, sometimes slide on a few meters, or even teleport bug to a different place that where people think you are, and switch weapon/bring a shield while being smashed on the ground. Don't ask me how you do that, i'm still trying to figure it out.
-when a pikeman stops your horse, you can actually still stab him, sometimes killing him. Works with a 1hander slash too, providing good timing/luck.
-when succesfully killing a horseman charging you, without hurting the horse, the horse still bumps you, and can even kill you. When that happens, it counts as if it's the player that killed you, and not a random horse.
-you can chamber lances with a good overhead or thrust with a good timing, but you'll always be out of range anyway if the cav is not too bad. So just downblock for the same effect, less dangerous.
-you succesfully slaughter an horse, thrust once the fallen rider (no pun intended), to see finally Torb... the rider (now footman) walk up with a poleaxe or whatever, and still slaughtering you. Then, he goes in a rampage after succesfully being on foot behind the all team, killing archers, etc... You did a fine job pikeman.


If you find any others, tell me, and i'll add them to the list. All thoses wonderful memories. About cav being balanced.


Spoiler for moderators :
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: EponiCo on July 08, 2011, 03:10:24 am
He's talking about pike on foot vs. horse I assume. And yeah, sometimes you can block attacks on the horse (shitty hitboxes I guess, or people not really aiming for the horse), but mostly not. That's kind of my pet peeves, if you get into an actual duel with someone it always goes that way, he steps back and starts killing your horse, and then you while you are lying on the floor.
Ofc, many ways to die vs. horse are quite lame, but the other side of the coin is that you don't really have options to kill otherwise from horse (well, the silly swings that sometimes travel through the horse head and 5 m beyond when you stop them should go, but it doesn't happen that often).
Well, if I would change something I'd make horses able to move sidewards. That way you could press against people and pressure them to protect your horse.It could be quite powerful and you could nerf maneuver a lot. (Kind of 2 modes, sprint mode just forward with slight adjustments for lancing, and walk mode where you can go into any direction at roughly footmans speed).


-if you jump off a cliff 3km high on your horse, your horse will die but you will just be on the ground 2sec, with no damage.

Sometimes you die too. I don't know exactly what causes it, it doesn't seem to be height (I survived literal 3km falls, but also died on only 10m).

-you succesfully slaughter an horse, thrust once the fallen rider (no pun intended), to see finally Torb... the rider (now footman) walk up with a poleaxe or whatever, and still slaughtering you. Then, he goes in a rampage after succesfully being on foot behind the all team, killing archers, etc... You did a fine job pikeman.

Haha. The worst are actually those that see "wtf that guy is now going to 1vs1 vs me" start running and backstab 3 of your archers. And then complain about how horses can only backstab people.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Miralay on July 08, 2011, 03:46:48 am
I'm sorry but this is a fail thread. Cavalry has its own problems and if you're having trouble with fighting against cav with pike, just go and practice on servers like everybody else
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 04:55:08 am
Torb is a damn fine melee user who kicks everyone's ass. Of course he cleans your clock after he is dismounted. Ramses and Cyranule are two other "cav" players that I can think of who are also more dangerous on foot then mounted.

Meh.

EDIT:
How Fallen_Tears_of_Revelations kills cav.
Either one shot both the horse and the cav in one go by thrusting through the horse neck and into the rider's body, OR, if the cav is stopped then quickly drop the pike and do a low left to right swing with the poleaxe sweeping towards the feet of the horse and killing it. Proceed to then do an overhead or right to left swing on the helpless rider sprawling on the ground. Type out "GET FUCKED" in chat.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Kenji on July 08, 2011, 05:26:41 am
EDIT:
How Fallen_Tears_of_Revelations kills cav.
Either one shot both the horse and the cav in one go by thrusting through the horse neck and into the rider's body, OR, if the cav is stopped then quickly drop the pike and do a low left to right swing with the poleaxe sweeping towards the feet of the horse and killing it. Proceed to then do an overhead or right to left swing on the helpless rider sprawling on the ground. Type out "GET FUCKED" in chat.
Yikes, I'm glad me and my tin horse haven't heard that from you yet :shock:
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: PieParadox on July 08, 2011, 05:38:40 am
I think you'd be a fool to say cavalry isn't overpowered. But not so overpowering that the game balance is completely destroyed. They are so many pros and so little cons to using a horse. Its basically a bonus you pay money for.

It's basically "OP" in the same kind of idea that veterans with all heirlooms are better off than newer players with no looms. Not a game breaking mechanic but simply overpowered since game balance is not easy to balance in this game of so many variables, from the RPG element, etc.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Torben on July 08, 2011, 05:54:59 am
anybody ever thought about the sheer fun of the speed everythong goes down with a horse?  flying across the map,  pinpointing turns,  standing on one side of a field challenging 10 enemy cav against u alone,  swirling and twisting and taking down as many as you can and,  with some luck,  even surviving.  its a fuckin thrill to  ride a fast horse if skilled.  thats why i do it,  thats why i love this game.  thats why i was sad when the horse heirloom nerf made my courser slower.
 this aint got nothin to do with pikes n blocking and what not,  of course.  well.  try it.  do it and than come back and say cav needs a nerf.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Torben on July 08, 2011, 06:00:59 am
btw.  i like comparing cav to planes in other games.  ever hear a tank yell:  nerf that messerschmitt!?

meh.  and ya,  tears is saying what to do,  wonder why people dont figure it.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Felix on July 08, 2011, 06:24:49 am
From footman's perspective it looks sooo terrible. I play cav. I can assume you, that i can rarely block strikes coming after i was stopped. And i almost never do even 10 steps after being dehorsed.
After my horse is stopped, i always turn it's head away from the pikemen and block the upcoming strike with my shield. Though, yeah, sometimes it's kinda stupid - you clearly should've hit the horse, but somehow the invisible shield force protects it. Though, i can assure, it doesn't happen always.

Might make some quotes


-good maneuver horses can evage ranged attacks at mid-range true it is. i say - nerf arabians :D
-good lance cav can couch you in 2sec, and thrust two consecutive times in 3sec. warband engine. if one wants to be totally unbiased - a footman can kill like 5 men in 3 sec. slash, slash, slash, slash...
-good maneuver horses stay maximum 2sec "stunned" when they run into a wall, or a pike. They're out of reach in a bit more than 2 attacks. nerf arabians.
-slow horses can bump you twice, while staying on you. engine
-all horses can jump over your pike, taking you by surprise, and you sometimes not having the time to reach in the air. Pretty usefull to reach that archer behind the pikeman. that's your problem. be aware, assertive and quick. this one looks more like whining to me
-if you jump off a cliff 3km high on your horse, your horse will die but you will just be on the ground 2sec, with no damage. additional code will be required (like in Rus 13 mod, where rider can die from fall impact
-horsemen can protect their horses from some melee hits by blocking the right direction. why not? shield gives footman force field as well.
-when your horse dies, you'll fall, sometimes slide on a few meters, or even teleport bug to a different place that where people think you are, and switch weapon/bring a shield while being smashed on the ground. Don't ask me how you do that, i'm still trying to figure it out. yeah. i am against it too. make it impossible to bring out next weapon while being on ground, though i think it's hardcoded
-when a pikeman stops your horse, you can actually still stab him, sometimes killing him. Works with a 1hander slash too, providing good timing/luck. don't see anything odd here. you stopped the horse, ye, but there's a rider on top it and he's still alive.
-when succesfully killing a horseman charging you, without hurting the horse, the horse still bumps you, and can even kill you. When that happens, it counts as if it's the player that killed you, and not a random horse. this one looks more like rage and whine  :lol:
-you can chamber lances with a good overhead or thrust with a good timing, but you'll always be out of range anyway if the cav is not too bad. So just downblock for the same effect, less dangerous. ...so?
-you succesfully slaughter an horse, thrust once the fallen rider (no pun intended), to see finally Torb... the rider (now footman) walk up with a poleaxe or whatever, and still slaughtering you. Then, he goes in a rampage after succesfully being on foot behind the all team, killing archers, etc... You did a fine job pikeman. very biased. most cavalrymen go down while being on ground. if he was able to survive... why not? or do you intend to make all dehorsed cav crippled on foot?

Bah, here you come, horse haters  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Tennenoth on July 08, 2011, 06:34:20 am
Also like those arrows between your eyes Torben?   :wink:

As an archer, I find it fairly easy to dehorse cavalry but as you know these days the autobalance is my major bugbear because of the fact that if there are entire clans of cavalry, not matter how good or bad they might be, they will slaughter the enemy due to the sheer number of them and the fact that they can knock you down with as little as grazing on your forehead!

I'm not complaining but the guys in the Guild ts have heard me say some bad things about being ganked by cav, i've taken down 8/9 cavarlymen from their horses before and there are still more running around while we had none in our team.

Once the autobalance (hopefully this is going to happen) takes into account what equipment or wpf you're using (ranged/cav/melee) along with the normal autobalance I think a lot of my troubles will be gone. That's a sort of personal rant there.

With regards to the horsefield (had to) when blocking yourself is rather annoying, but the worst has to be the arrows being blocked (as an archer) when you hit the horse in it's head to take the bugger down, but instead they still trample you giving you stars comically spinning around your head before the rider comes round with insane speed (normally before you've even gotten up) and has bump slashed/stabbed you. (They don't normally but that gets annoying, usually they're pretty useless and proceed to harrass you for 2 minutes by bumping you and swinging at you wildly like some sort of rabid dog before you finally trap them in a wall or something to drop them and run away like a coward that you really are just to put two fingers up saying "haha, now who's the fast one?!")

Not really had any other problems other than ubundance of horses these days, faar too many!

*QQ over.*
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Topsnus on July 08, 2011, 06:39:14 am
anybody ever thought about the sheer fun of the speed everythong goes down with a horse?  flying across the map,  pinpointing turns,  standing on one side of a field challenging 10 enemy cav against u alone,  swirling and twisting and taking down as many as you can and,  with some luck,  even surviving.  its a fuckin thrill to  ride a fast horse if skilled.  thats why i do it,  thats why i love this game.  thats why i was sad when the horse heirloom nerf made my courser slower.
 this aint got nothin to do with pikes n blocking and what not,  of course.  well.  try it.  do it and than come back and say cav needs a nerf.

Wow, i didn't realize this whole game and all of the balancing was about you having fun. Now it makes sense.  Because i was going to say that cavalry was overpowered and that the cavalry chracter i made did far to well considering my low level and the fact that i sucked at it, but i guess i shouldn't say that, since as long as you are having the time of your life, all is well for the other few thousand players....
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Felix on July 08, 2011, 06:41:54 am
anybody ever thought about the sheer fun of the speed everythong goes down with a horse?  flying across the map,  pinpointing turns,  standing on one side of a field challenging 10 enemy cav against u alone,  swirling and twisting and taking down as many as you can and,  with some luck,  even surviving.  its a fuckin thrill to  ride a fast horse if skilled.  thats why i do it,  thats why i love this game.  thats why i was sad when the horse heirloom nerf made my courser slower.
 this aint got nothin to do with pikes n blocking and what not,  of course.  well.  try it.  do it and than come back and say cav needs a nerf.

Tha truth was spoken  :mrgreen: That's why i switched from being archer to cav. Nothing can compare with that fast riding.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Torben on July 08, 2011, 06:51:07 am
Also like those arrows between your eyes Torben?   :wink:

its common knowledge that i love beeing skullfucked by youre big ass arrows mate
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: tankmen on July 08, 2011, 07:14:39 am
so all the people who say they use a pike and fail at it... are you guys even pole arm? im sorry but if your a two hander your ment to die by archers and cavalry...
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 07:20:05 am
so all the people who say they use a pike and fail at it... are you guys even pole arm? im sorry but if your a two hander your ment to die by archers and cavalry...

I don't know...

Even with 4PS (now I have 5) with my new low level shielder and just 1 wpf, my Pike was more then enough to ward off horses or kill them outright if they were the Nimbus 2000 Coursers or the like.

*shrugs*

Granted, if the enemy is using an armoured horse then it takes a great deal to put them down, but considering the things are so pathetically slow and have so little maneuverability that I can run around then (not to mention them costing 40K  or more) I am ok with that.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Torben on July 08, 2011, 09:59:11 am
Wow, i didn't realize this whole game and all of the balancing was about you having fun. Now it makes sense.  Because i was going to say that cavalry was overpowered and that the cavalry chracter i made did far to well considering my low level and the fact that i sucked at it, but i guess i shouldn't say that, since as long as you are having the time of your life, all is well for the other few thousand players....


yes youre right thats just what my post is about.  youre so awsome,  wow.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Tristan on July 08, 2011, 10:22:29 am
Problem is that riders block can save a horse. That ain't good.

And to all those l2p comments at Bulzur... try fight him before you open ye mouth.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Gheritarish le Loki on July 08, 2011, 10:39:00 am
ok Bulzur you made a fine list of many game mechanics flaws for cav, what about you continue your list with all other class...? Like the over head hit with long spear that doesn´t strike your team and every pole related bug, or shield force field that protect you in the back (on foot), or jumping archers, ot hit through doors (my favourite).

Stop trying to find argument to nerf cav and train with your pike, it´s really not difficult to kill cav with one of this toy. Even, you could work with your teammates (the guys that spawn with you at start) you know, one archer one pike is a certain death for cav.

Or you could just play in siege server, there is almost no cav....

Edit: Aemelus, if he´s so good why is crying? Because he didn´t try to report a bug, he reports a cav bug to be an argument to nerf cav, which mean crying.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Cepeshi on July 08, 2011, 10:42:17 am
Noticed some of the points aswell.

When i ride my horse, no matter what horse, it gets oneshotted (yeah, charger in ONE fucking bolt, not even headshot, i was not even going fullspeed in his direction). But then when i play my xbow char, the horse survives 2-3 bolts (yeah, i doubt i was shot all the times just by MWed items), same with longbow, was going on courser and just as i passed a corner the horse got instagibbed again...wtf...

Anyways, i was complaining about the bullshit rider blocks few weeks ago, after a situation when a horse stopped on wall, i overheaded the rider from BACK and he blocked it...also few times when u try to impale the whorsie you just hear that CLONG sound and you get bumplanced or whatever. I was aiming for the neck/head, i hit the horse (looked like it on my screen), but again, the rider blocked it (also bullshit they can block stuff which is far ahead of them, like, horse head...)

Dunno if this might have something to do with hitboxes messing up for the horse and rider, but still, this can get quite frustrating.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Cepeshi on July 08, 2011, 10:45:39 am
ok Bulzur you made a fine list of many game mechanics flaws for cav, what about you continue your list with all other class...? Like the over head hit with long spear that doesn´t strike your team and every pole related bug, or shield force field that protect you in the back (on foot), or jumping archers, ot hit through doors (my favourite).

long spear overheads HIT your teammates, i was told they dont and when i tried i got almost kicked for TA :P sometimes on close range it is buggy, but does not happen all the times...

pole related bugs: such as? playing poles now, would love to know what to abooze other than spinthrust

shield forcefield on back is unbelievable for me, never happened that i would hit a shielder to back and he woulnt suffer, where did you get this? also, on my shield char, my back is not protected for sure...

jumping archers, well, realistic? not, fun? yes :D i do not see what does this ahve to do with anything
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Prosed on July 08, 2011, 11:21:53 am
Try using a 1h instead of a pike. When im dismounted and get attacked by a cav i block his hit or dodge. When he's riding away i slash his horses ass. Easy as that  :rolleyes:.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Siiem on July 08, 2011, 11:44:48 am
Torb is a damn fine melee user who kicks everyone's ass.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Wookimonsta on July 08, 2011, 11:47:08 am
-good maneuver horses can evage ranged attacks at mid-range
this is true, however, this is only temporary, and once multiple archers arrive its basically over.

-good lance cav can couch you in 2sec, and thrust two consecutive times in 3sec.
couch needs a decent runup, also high speed horses cant thrust twice that fast.

-good maneuver horses stay maximum 2sec "stunned" when they run into a wall, or a pike. They're out of reach in a bit more than 2 attacks.
unless using an armored horse (ok maybe destrier) most horses die from 2 solid hits

-slow horses can bump you twice, while staying on you.
true, should be fixed

-all horses can jump over your pike, taking you by surprise, and you sometimes not having the time to reach in the air. Pretty usefull to reach that archer behind the pikeman.
if this is true, you are doing a TERRIBLE job as a pikeman, no offense, but seriously, go practice

-if you jump off a cliff 3km high on your horse, your horse will die but you will just be on the ground 2sec, with no damage.
not true, took my horse on a tower during a siege once and jumped down, i also died :(

-horsemen can protect their horses from some melee hits by blocking the right direction.
this is true, this also annoys me (im a lancer), even when i aim at the horses legs i get blocked, this should be lowered.

-when your horse dies, you'll fall, sometimes slide on a few meters, or even teleport bug to a different place that where people think you are, and switch weapon/bring a shield while being smashed on the ground. Don't ask me how you do that, i'm still trying to figure it out.
this is a bug, should be fixed.

-when a pikeman stops your horse, you can actually still stab him, sometimes killing him. Works with a 1hander slash too, providing good timing/luck.
thats just the way it goes, if you go for the horse, there is a chance the rider can get you.

-when succesfully killing a horseman charging you, without hurting the horse, the horse still bumps you, and can even kill you. When that happens, it counts as if it's the player that killed you, and not a random horse.
lol, you got trampled by a horse, sucks

-you can chamber lances with a good overhead or thrust with a good timing, but you'll always be out of range anyway if the cav is not too bad. So just downblock for the same effect, less dangerous.
depends on the cav, if its slow you can get it witht eh chamber, fast ones are hard. practice chambering to do it as early as possible.

-you succesfully slaughter an horse, thrust once the fallen rider (no pun intended), to see finally Torb... the rider (now footman) walk up with a poleaxe or whatever,
so?
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Odion on July 08, 2011, 11:52:43 am
its because the rest of your team is not helping. if there is one cav on the enemy team then yes just having you would be enough

but if the other team has 15+ cav then your team needs to pick up a pike too

if every 2hander carried a pike or xbow cav wont be as op as they seem.

but no, everyone wants to rambo every round oblivious to what is happing behind them.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Cepeshi on July 08, 2011, 12:08:22 pm
-all horses can jump over your pike, taking you by surprise, and you sometimes not having the time to reach in the air. Pretty usefull to reach that archer behind the pikeman.
if this is true, you are doing a TERRIBLE job as a pikeman, no offense, but seriously, go practice


get real man, many times i saw horses outranging long spear by simply jumping over, and even when i tried to thrust them mid air, i couldnt hit em...might be different with pike, but i believe with some terrain advantage and shit the horse could jump over that aswell....i even saw a RHINO on freaking roof, without any other way getting in than jumping...players couldnt, the horse did it
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Torben on July 08, 2011, 12:10:00 pm
:lol:

to his defence,  i had a good day ^^
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Camaris on July 08, 2011, 12:19:08 pm
I dont think its the biggest flaw of cav but its funny that just yesterday we talked on ts about that horse-protection-shield riders do have.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Digglez on July 08, 2011, 12:26:51 pm
learn when to stab the rider or the horse its very easy.  anyone thats played more than a few weeks and figure that out.  horses are not all that difficult to counter

Allowing the riders to switch weapons after they've been dehorsed is pretty fair.  If they didnt, than the horses dead body should be able to charge/knockdown enemies as well, I'd get hella kills doing that plus it would give me time to stand and then change weapons.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on July 08, 2011, 12:56:08 pm
Yep, the forcefield sucks! But youll have to adapt to it!

Basically what tears said.
The pike is just to stop the horse, go for the lower parts of the main body.
The major mistake of the pikeman ( or any other inf) is, when cav rears and stops, is to get kill hungry and go for the rider, all attacks on an immobilized cav is an overhead (easy to anticipate). Drop your pike and slash the horse's legs with a sideswing!
Youll have the leasure to rape him on the floor!

This might seems stupid and weird but i actually prefer not to one kill the horse when i pike. Because you have to run to the place where the rider fell ( and thats if there isnt the bug)!
Stop the horse, kill it. And youll have all the time of the animation to get 2 overheads in! ( or more!)

my two cents from the ts channel under ;-)
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Bulzur on July 08, 2011, 01:29:07 pm
Torb is a damn fine melee user who kicks everyone's ass. Of course he cleans your clock after he is dismounted. Ramses and Cyranule are two other "cav" players that I can think of who are also more dangerous on foot then mounted.
They sure are.^^ Kerrigan isn't half bad too.


EDIT:
How Fallen_Tears_of_Revelations kills cav.
Either one shot both the horse and the cav in one go by thrusting through the horse neck and into the rider's body, OR, if the cav is stopped then quickly drop the pike and do a low left to right swing with the poleaxe sweeping towards the feet of the horse and killing it. Proceed to then do an overhead or right to left swing on the helpless rider sprawling on the ground. Type out "GET FUCKED" in chat.

Valid way. But when you're facing too many cavs, you don't really want to drop your long spear/pike.


After all comments, i  agree to several points. Cav is not that much overpowered. But the fact that there's more and more of them, and that autobalance don't take them in account, thus one team sometimes having 5 times as more as the other, makes it really more difficult.
Playing a cav is really fun. No need to elaborate that.
Playing a pikeman is... well... a bit... tense. Very satisfying when you protect well your archer, kill by yourself one or two cav. But else, it's really you, waiting for cavs mistake. In a defending attitude. Not the kind of agressive gameplay.

To all people saying "be usefull, protect an archer", "stop whining, you're doing it wrong", "stop crying", etc... I was having fun, playing with a fellow pikeman, protecting only one archer with his help.  I don't cry about cavs, i made a polearm just to deal with them. But apart from being the "best" class at the moment, the most dangerous one, imo, it's frustrating to see them benefiting from some strange glitches.
Yes, the "horseman blocked the hit going for his horse" doesn't happen very often. But when it happens, it makes you mad. Especially when "a good cav making a mistake" doesn't happen very often either. So when this good cav finally makes an error, and he manage to block your thrust going for the horse head (let's face it, if you stab it in the legs, the horse has chances to still be able to run away), then you can be very disapointed.

To most, thanks for the usefull feedback. I always bring a poleaxe/long spear on all battle maps nowadays, but it seems like... a lot of polearm character, ex-pikeman/poleaxe user, just put 5 points in riding instead of ironflesh and go cav. Since it's really more fun being on the agressive side. And you don't really upkeep that more, just drop your heavy armor and take a medium one. And you have money anyway.

Cav is really not enough "dedicated" for the many advantages it has. One way the devs thought to counter it was putting 3 agi for the riding skill, instead of 6, and it only made cav benefit more from the riding skill that didn't change. So yes, they all lost 3 IF, and gained faster horse, more maneuver, more acceleration. Damn.



All infantry, unite ! It's very easy as cavalry to play together (just go flanking the same way, after waiting 40sec for the infantry to move), whereas it's difficult for us infantry to protect the all group, that can spread like a snake heading to one direction (special dedicace to shogunate's vid. George the tank engine rules). So the solution ? All buy pikes ? Have twice as many pikemen than ennemy cav ? Or the easiest one so far, go cav, and watch with fun as you trample infantry and hear their plees for a chance against them. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Felix on July 08, 2011, 01:47:54 pm
Hm... make cav more dedicated. I just logged in EU1. The town map had like 6-7 cav on each team. This is not normal...
Cut down their amount.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 08, 2011, 02:01:15 pm
Game Balance Discussion
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Bulzur on July 08, 2011, 02:01:31 pm
Hm... make cav more dedicated. I just logged in EU1. The town map had like 6-7 cav on each team. This is not normal...
Cut down their amount.
No need to be sarcastic.
After some studies, there's way more cav at 01:00 am. Like 12 in one team, 6 in the other. When the team has 40 people, it is a lot of cav.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Kato on July 08, 2011, 02:07:33 pm
I don't think there is big problem with cav. The solution is autobalance by class. Is really frustrating playing against whole GK squad sometimes. As pikeman i hate only 1 thing: weapon change when rider is on the floor and also horse archers. :) 
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 08, 2011, 02:17:28 pm
And to all those l2p comments at Bulzur... try fight him before you open ye mouth.

-all horses can jump over your pike, taking you by surprise, and you sometimes not having the time to reach in the air. Pretty usefull to reach that archer behind the pikeman.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Vibe on July 08, 2011, 02:20:27 pm
^ good point
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Bulzur on July 08, 2011, 02:22:59 pm
Chagan, can you read the 'sometimes' in your quote, or is it just too hard ?

Long spear and pike isn't instahit, like your damn lance. We actually have to prepare it in advance, and hiting flying horses is harder than one may seem. But of course, all us pikeman need cav to teach us how to thrust above us, cause they do it so better than us.

Also, imo, what you require most for a "good" pikeman is awareness. I don't think succeeding in stabing a jumping horse or not makes you good or bad. AND, even when you succeed, it's most of the time a hit in the horse's stomach, wich... DOESN T STOP IT. Wich is suppose to be the purpose of a long spear/pike, right ?

To think we finally have a GK remark, and it has to be so... lame. I'm disapointed.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 03:13:47 pm
pole related bugs: such as? playing poles now, would love to know what to abooze other than spinthrust

Walk up to someone using a shield with you using an Awlpike or other similar weapon and a shield, so you are using it in one hand. Facehug the guy so close that parts of your body is inside of his shield and your models are touching and overlapping. Stab and laugh as you ignore his shield. Repeat as needed, or try with certain one handers as well.

EDIT: Yeah, the bug where if a horse is jumping and you stab it in the stomach it sometimes does not stop is crap. :/ Not cool at all.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: MrShine on July 08, 2011, 03:45:22 pm
I don't know, I guess I've never really found cav to be 'OP'.  There are some excellent cav players who are great at being in the perfect position to hit someone and just get out of range for a counterattack, but most of the time they just prey on the unaware and rack up kills that way.

When I roll an archer, killing cav is a breeze.  Just have to keep awareness way up and be as mobile as possible.

When I play 2-H having a great sword w/ 120+ reach I definitely killed more cav than killed me... you have to be aware of positioning and try to get in front of a charging cav to thrust attack instead of letting them attack you from the side w/ a lance and back away out of your range.  Can be a bit tricky against good cav players, but I enjoyed it when a cav would try to run me down because it usually ended up netting me a kill.

1-H shield is probably the trickiest against cav... while I've demounted my fair share of riders with the magic of the right swing against good cav you're pretty helpless, but the (imo) best char class in the game has to have some weaknesses, right?

Haven't played a pole user or thrower, but those seem to be even better against cav.

So I say give cav their bag of tricks; if you have trouble against cav it's probably an issue of your own awareness and positioning as a player and less about cavalry being overpowered.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Torben on July 08, 2011, 04:16:14 pm
bulzur,  i only skimmed youre last post but i wanna agree,  cause i do value the things u say a lot.
 i especially concure to the of balance of cav on many maps.  also,  cavs jumping over a defending poleman without him beeing able to react happens to me a lot aswell,  its often  frustrating (but also kinda cool) to be harrased by multiple cav  at once. 
to my defence i gotta say i love being on the inf receiving side of the lance cause its just an interesting twist for me as a cav player from time to time.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Riddaren on July 08, 2011, 05:46:18 pm
(click to show/hide)

+1

The fact that melee cavalry players (mainly lancers) gets so many kills doesn't make them OP. That is a stupid argument that is getting quite tiresome.
Also, a good HA will make the best of cav players to look bad.

The victims are made up of:

1. Unaware players of all kinds of classes (very rarely good players but quite often players who considers themselves to be good).
Solution: If you can't get better at it you will just have to rely on teamwork. Going with others instead of going alone is a good start.

2. Noobs and unskilled players lacking the knowledge or skill to defend themselves or counter (down block, jump a side, thrust the horse, jump slash the rider, jump stab the rider...).

3. Peasants (rarely good players). A good player knows how to downblock and jump a side and will make a stalemate in a 1vs1 situation with any type of melee cav.
It's quite funny when I meet a good peasant on his own who knows how to avoid getting bumped or hit by my lance making me look like a fool. I usually just ride away and fight somewhere else for a while when that happens. Not because I can't kill him but because it would take too long. Staying could result in a team loss because I stayed away from fights where my help would have been needed.

See where I am going?

It's only because of the unawareness and lack of teamplay and tactics by the enemy that makes it possible for me and other melee cavalry players to get a lot of kills fast.
It's not a problem with the ingame balance. It's perfectly balanced. In general a melee cavalry player barely has the upper hand in 1vs1 situation vs any type of infantry (ranged or not).
An archer will kill the horse and a pikeman can't be killed. Then there are HA's that plays with melee cavalry like a cat plays with a mouse. The mouse can only run away and that is what I do.
I like how well balanced the game is right now.

Reminder: All classes are not supposed to be perfectly balanced in any 1vs1 situation vs any type of enemy.

Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on July 08, 2011, 05:54:24 pm
Attention : It is not because your attack is blocked that the horse is not hit.
In mount and blade you can't hit two person with one attack , at the only exception of cav and horseman. With hone hit you can kill/wound both. So if you attack is blocked it doesn't mean that you didn't hit the horse , it only mean that you hit the horse but not the horseman. If you hit very high (near top the horseman) he may block your attack and the horse will be safe,  but if you hit the horse low , blocking will only save the man but never the horse
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: justme on July 08, 2011, 06:01:39 pm
but its harder to aim lower points of horse becouse you need spin thrust if you want avoid boincing..
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Bulzur on July 08, 2011, 07:16:17 pm
I'm adding another funny one, didn't even know it existed :
I'm using a long spear, so a cav coming to me, i thrust, he jump, i follow him and... BONK. He managed to protect his horse's belly with his shield, while in air. Awesome ! High five for the horse !  :shock:
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: Gurnisson on July 08, 2011, 08:31:24 pm
-horsemen can protect their horses from some melee hits by blocking the right direction.

Yes, that's retarded. Especially lancers with shields enjoy that stupid thing right thar.
Title: Re: Why horseman's blocks protect horse ?
Post by: EponiCo on July 08, 2011, 09:01:01 pm
Attention : It is not because your attack is blocked that the horse is not hit.
In mount and blade you can't hit two person with one attack , at the only exception of cav and horseman. With hone hit you can kill/wound both. So if you attack is blocked it doesn't mean that you didn't hit the horse , it only mean that you hit the horse but not the horseman. If you hit very high (near top the horseman) he may block your attack and the horse will be safe,  but if you hit the horse low , blocking will only save the man but never the horse

Actually yes. It's possible to block an attack and still have it damage the horse. Question is if he didn't block would the attack have hit him and still passed through the horse without damage.