Running archers are my least favorite players in the entire game simply because it shows no skill or honor in combat. Many archers that do this tell me this is the smartest thing for an archer to do because they would rather run and live than die fighting. I completely disagree with this mentality and think that these types of players should not be looked at as role models for newer players.
Running archers are my least favorite players in the entire game simply because it shows no skill or honor in combat. Many archers that do this tell me this is the smartest thing for an archer to do because they would rather run and live than die fighting. I completely disagree with this mentality and think that these types of players should not be looked at as role models for newer players.
Remind me to not play on any server you have admin of, as you love to interpret the rules according to your "because it shows no skill or honor in combat."
EDIT: Now, considering Duke of Disco and such can ride around on his horse and shooting people even if he is the last one remaining, that is not "general douchebaggery" because he has an ATS tag, right? He has never once been "pink texted" for pulling that even until the last second... SO should I go join ATS, or do I need to become a HA for this behavior to suddenly become acceptable?
My inability to fight a person at arm's length is my biggest vulnerability, why on earth would I simply let the enemy win? In fact, my kiting people that are so bent on killing me has, on more than one occasion directly influenced a win for my team. When someone is chasing me, they are not helping to gang up on one of my fellow teammates.Telling an archer not to run from melee is like telling a melee to stop trying to avoid arrows. It's absolutely retarded and anyone with this mindset has some problems. What're you so egotistical that you can't look at things from an archer's perspective or do you just not care to? Would you really refute the fact that an archer is more useful if he doesn't fight in melee? I'd question how useful he is as an archer if he chooses melee as well.
Those are my feelings anyway. Should I assume that you find no value in archers that kite?
I am most certainly a running archer. I switch between a warbow and a longbow, and I always carry two quivers, so I'm not left with a lot of options in terms of defending myself at arm's length. Not surprisingly, I disagree strongly that running or kiting is the sign of an archer that isn't willing to die fighting. When I run, it is because if I want to fight, I must run. Without a melee weapon, I get the vast majority of my kills from arrow shots from only a few feet away from my enemy. I don't see how an archer kiting is any different than a melee person constantly moving around their opponent to gain positioning advantage. My inability to fight a person at arm's length is my biggest vulnerability, why on earth would I simply let the enemy win? I wouldn't call dying needlessly a contribution to my team. In fact, my kiting people that are so bent on killing me has, on more than one occasion directly influenced a win for my team. When someone is chasing me, they are not helping to gang up on one of my fellow teammates.
That said, I do find it mind-numbingly frustrating when anyone (archer or not) runs away from combat in an obvious-loss scenario just to avoid death. If I have teammates up and the ability to run away, I will attempt to do so 100% of the time. The moment my last teammate drops, I make a decision about whether I can win the round or not (which is usually a no), and I stop running and get what's coming to me.
Those are my feelings anyway. Should I assume that you find no value in archers that kite?
EDIT so if someone dances too much to avoid my arrows during a match, is he delaying the game?
If he is the last one left and is not moving towards you at all, yes.
Telling an archer not to run from melee is like telling a melee to stop trying to avoid arrows. It's absolutely retarded and anyone with this mindset has some problems. What're you so egotistical that you can't look at things from an archer's perspective or do you just not care to? Would you really refute the fact that an archer is more useful if he doesn't fight in melee? I'd question how useful he is as an archer if he chooses melee as well.
I think you might be misunderstanding what I said, or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you're saying here. I am an archer, so I have no problem looking at it from the point of view of an archer :) Also, I support archers running in many circumstances.
Right, but if an archer who is avoiding melee who is not the last one remaining then it was considered delaying the game.
Gotcha.
Thank you for the Rules Clarification for those servers.
EDIT so if someone dances too much to avoid my arrows during a match, is he delaying the game?
Therefor every infantry is heavy str -> no athletics. Archer can just run away from melee np now and its annoying as fuck.
I hate archers because of the meta-game shift from heavy Agility melee to heavy STR no agility.
An agility based melee has no chance anymore in a duel agaisnt another melee'er (since STR is so OP right now for melee).
Therefor every infantry is heavy str -> no athletics. Archer can just run away from melee np now and its annoying as fuck.
This has caused more str infantry to do cav/infantry hybrids (with 12~agi) and now cav map are fucking unplayable as a melee'r with 5000 archers and 5000 cavs
On top of that there's nothing you can do agaisn't 2 archers as a melee, you can outplay 2+ melee'r but if there's a chance you get ranged youre fucked, so fuck all of you.
-kekeeke
Telling an archer not to run from melee is like telling a melee to stop trying to avoid arrows. It's absolutely retarded and anyone with this mindset has some problems. What're you so egotistical that you can't look at things from an archer's perspective or do you just not care to? Would you really refute the fact that an archer is more useful if he doesn't fight in melee? I'd question how useful he is as an archer if he chooses melee as well.
I don't think you read my post up above correctly. I took that specific situation and analyzed how it was playing out. You can't just make generalizations for every situation. The only people who were left alive were chasing you while your teammates were no where in sight. I told you to stop running so they could fight you in melee and most likely this would slow them down enough for your teammates to come and join you in battle. I don't understand how you you can try to make these generalizations based on one specific and unusual situation. In the end you were really doing nothing wrong but your actions were indirectly causing a delay in the game. I think you are mixing up my dislike of your play style with my decisions as an admin. I am letting you know now that my response to the situation was not affected at all by my disgust with your play style. Stop acting like it was and just get over it.
I dare you make a melee char with 18 agi.
If you wanna be slow as turtle - than you'll die as slow turtle too.
I dare you make a melee char with 18 agi.
You'll go insane when you need to hit some people 8+ times. :lol:
That's a reasonable mindset Miley, but part of my enjoyment comes from the feeling that I've contributed to the team in some way. That's why I'm kind of looking for some sort of consensus from the melee crew about what they'd prefer their archer teammates to do to help contribute.
OK, fine, let us look at this from a third person perspective.
One enemy at the time was a consistent 10 to 15 feet behind me, and the other was approaching and at the time on an intercept course of about 20 or 30 seconds... And my team was at the ice tower, which takes about 30 seconds to cross all the water and come to me.
You expect me to last, with a stick (though at the time you thought I was unarmed, this this makes this very interesting) 20 seconds, or even 10 against a melee user who was one of your renowed ones, who was using a poleaxe? And I am a warbow user, obviously not having any real melee skills... and somehow I am to buy time for my team to come to me? Interesting, I am so happy to see that you think so highly of my melee skills (especially at the time since apparently you did not notice the stick and thought I was unarmed) to be able to last that long... Thank you good sir for considering me a god amongst archers! :mrgreen:
Also if in the end I was not doing anythign wrong but was indirectly delaying the game, then this is a contradictory statement considering you pink texted me to stop running, thus me doing something wrong...
I am making an issue of this because you made a bad call and somehow think it was a good call... So it will happen again... which is bullshit, in my not so humble opinion.
You'll go insane when you need to hit some people 8+ times.
Wut? Are you trying to kill them barehanded?can you do that w/ cut?
Standart battle build 21\18, 154 wpp in pole, mw Bec.
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I dont remember ever stating that I thought you were unarmed.
For the general public to know, Duke was actively running in circles on his horse shooting at enemies and pulling out his sword to kill enemies the entire time. Tears(a very fitting name) was simply running with no melee weapon and bow sheathed.
It seems as if the only thing people hate more than the archer class itself is dying to an archer.I lost count to how many times I died from ranged attacks (Be it Arrows, Xbows, or Throwing) on horseback than from lances or jumping infantries. I should really make a video of it, those dying moments and take screen shots of those, I don't know why, but I think it's comical at best.
All of that said, I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team? What makes an archer valuable to you? Would you prefer that archers keep their distance, raining in arrows from afar? Would you prefer that archers are close enough to have your back in close combat? What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?I support archers, I'm glad to have them watch my backs, and whenever my horse is shot down, I always try and regroup with the archers since I know they'd usually pick a safe spot to snipe. I've covered archers to move around and distract chasing infantries. I don't know how to put this, without ranged classes, I'd probably have less chances to see teamwork that made me even more immersed into this awesome game.
Yes, I can do this with cut. And you can do it too. With Mighty Great Long Bardiche for example.50 armor is low when you're talkin about having to hit people 5 times, it's obviously not on clothies, so you should be looking at plate, so a minimum of 65 armor. Second, using one of the two highest cut damaging weapons is a bit aside from the point and the bec is an extreme case and the only weapon that lets you maintain retarded damage with an agi build. Try the danish, and a non loomed one at that. 154 wpf isn't realistic, you have to be naked to have that much effective wpf with a 21/18 build.
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I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team? What makes an archer valuable to you? Would you prefer that archers keep their distance, raining in arrows from afar? Would you prefer that archers are close enough to have your back in close combat? What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?
Archers shoot arrows at people from far away.This motherfucking quote. Thank you.
Archers are a fundamental part of Mount&Blade that are absolutely necessary to counter-balance what could otherwise be ridiculously overpowered classes/builds.
I'm 18, 18 and I destroy archery with 250 ping. Just saying :P
People don't like archery because they feel like they can't determine the outcome of the fight. If they lose in melee it's because they made a mistake. If they lose to an archer it's because the archer did something good.
People need to deal with it.
(And I've never met the archer who doesn't shoot at peasants)Well, here you have one. I never shoot to peasants as they are useless. If I recognize any high skilled player in melee, I try to kill him first, regardless of armor. If not, I go to kill cav. Peasants are the last option.
50 armor is low when you're talkin about having to hit people 5 times, it's obviously not on clothies, so you should be looking at plate, so a minimum of 65 armor. Second, using one of the two highest cut damaging weapons is a bit aside from the point and the bec is an extreme case and the only weapon that lets you maintain retarded damage with an agi build. Try the danish, and a non loomed one at that. 154 wpf isn't realistic, you have to be naked to have that much effective wpf with a 21/18 build.
Try a Danish Greatsword (The most popular 2her) with a 21/18 build at 110 effective wpf against 70 armor. It could take quite a few hits to kill your opponent.
And with the original post from kekeeke concerning this aspect of melee which is a pseudo buff to ranged, I've thought the same thing which is why I switched to the bec. It's the only weapon in the game that allows you to have a 18/21 build and still do amazing damage against plate(the only melee worth making a counter-build for). I do more damage at 6 PS with my bec than I do at 9 PS with my miaodao.
There is only one thing i truly hate about archers, when they shoot into the mele.This
I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds. Also, the current accuracy seems a bit too high, especially for longbows. Devs could even increase the damage IMO but it is really too easy when you can hold your arrow ready during two hours.I can see that you haven´t even tried out archery.
I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds.
I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds. Also, the current accuracy seems a bit too high, especially for longbows. Devs could even increase the damage IMO but it is really too easy when you can hold your arrow ready during two hours.
I hate archers because of the meta-game shift from heavy Agility melee to heavy STR no agility.
An agility based melee has no chance anymore in a duel agaisnt another melee'er (since STR is so OP right now for melee).
Therefor every infantry is heavy str -> no athletics. Archer can just run away from melee np now and its annoying as fuck.
This has caused more str infantry to do cav/infantry hybrids (with 12~agi) and now cav map are fucking unplayable as a melee'r with 5000 archers and 5000 cavs
On top of that there's nothing you can do agaisn't 2 archers as a melee, you can outplay 2+ melee'r but if there's a chance you get ranged youre fucked, so fuck all of you.
-kekeeke
The reason people have so many problems with so many classes is they'd like to play a team game as a single player game where they are the sole hero.
What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?
I'm sure it's nice to load up your archer after a long day at work, fire up a joint and just left click a bit. :-D
Shields have a different problem as an "anti-archer" force. First, they are slow. A shielder can hardly ever kill a decent archer running away.
For reference, my archer is built 18str-21agi with 3IF, 6PS, 5ATH, 6PD, 7WM with 151 wpf in bows and 91 in two handers.Just a small unrelated question to the side - asuming that you go for lvl 30, mind telling me where you get all those skill points for your skills?
I appreciate all of the input, but I don't think I was clear enough about my intentions with this post.
I consider myself to be a decent archer, and I think I have a solid understanding about how to play the class. I kite a lot, I pick on tin cans mostly, and I am very aggressive; I do not apologize for any of that.
However, I am intrigued to hear from melee players: what can I do to be a better teammate for you? Archers are obviously not going anywhere, so you will have to continue dealing with them. Rather than what you do to counter archers or what you think your archer opponents should be doing, I am curious as to what you would prefer your archer teammates to be doing in order to help you. We are a support class for the most part, so what can we do to support you in combat?
What i would recommend, is trying out other classes. Basically, make alts, lots of them.
See how it is on the other end of the arrows flight path and you will have an easier time playing an archer as well. Works the other way as well, maybe even better.
Understanding is key.
I can see that you haven´t even tried out archery.
This line negated the entirety of your post and shows that you have only played an archer in native, not CRPG. The reticle "close" time for the Strongbow, Longbow, and Warbow is 1.5 seconds. There's the time it takes to draw, then a 1.5 second window of accuracy before having to fire or redraw. You have no idea what you're talking about and you're tossing out words like you do, one of the major problems with any discussion of mechanics in this game.
I think you're confusing things with Crossbows. In case you haven't tried archery in cRPG, on mouse 1 pressing, specially with longbow p.e., you have something like 2 seconds or more until the reticule gets to the maximum accuracy point, which doesn't actually stops at that point, and goes back to the opening process.
There are two types or players regarding this situation with reticule. Those who hold the mouse button and release only when they have a clear and sure shot, preventing all types of mistakes, and those who actually only press once the mouse button, and the arrow releases automatically at that maximum accuracy point, with the high risk of getting team hits, or constant misses.
In Crossbows, if you hold down the mouse button, and stand still, the reticule stands always at maximum accuracy, no timer involved. If you move the mouse slowly, no fast movements, the reticule will stay at that maximum accuracy point. If you do a fast movement it will widen a bit going back to maximum accuracy when you stop the movement.
Hope this was of any help, and I can fraps these explained details/situations in case of any confusion, cause fortunately, I know what I'm talking about since my main is an archer and one of my multiple alts is a dedicated crossbowman (which has no problems in topping scores with arbalest on battle servers, no gloating intended, just facts about balancing).
All of that said, I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team?
Personally i like to play my friendly archer (wut can't write fa*cher ? :mrgreen: ), for the challenge it offer and because playing only melee gets boring after a while.exactly my experiences of trying an archer. Its not so easy as it looks.
I've way more trouble toping the scoreboard with my archer than with melee and my K/D ratio is just horrible compared to melee.
When i top the scoreboard 95% of the time it is because I went into a rampage using my backup melee weapon instead of my bow.
Also starting cRPG playing as an archer is IMHO just the hardest way to get started cuz:
1.no armor + no awareness = very quick death
2.You get very little practice in melee, so you improve very slowly
3.You need higher level than melee to start being useful
4.heirloom are most important in archery and when you start you've no heirloom
5. You deal low damage. It's just way easier to whack some heads twice with a big sword than to shoot 3-6 arrow in the same guy to get a kill.
6. Archer are the perfect target for other archer, this mean that the so called "easy mod" is just a myth because even if you're far from combat you will get targeted a lot more than melee by bow, xbow, horsies and ninja backstabbers.
Personally i like to play my friendly archer (wut can't write fa*cher ? :mrgreen: ), for the challenge it offer and because playing only melee gets boring after a while.
I've way more trouble toping the scoreboard with my archer than with melee and my K/D ratio is just horrible compared to melee.
When i top the scoreboard 95% of the time it is because I went into a rampage using my backup melee weapon instead of my bow.
Also starting cRPG playing as an archer is IMHO just the hardest way to get started cuz:
1.no armor + no awareness = very quick death
2.You get very little practice in melee, so you improve very slowly
3.You need higher level than melee to start being useful
4.heirloom are most important in archery and when you start you've no heirloom
5. You deal low damage. It's just way easier to whack some heads twice with a big sword than to shoot 3-6 arrow in the same guy to get a kill.
6. Archer are the perfect target for other archer, this mean that the so called "easy mod" is just a myth because even if you're far from combat you will get targeted a lot more than melee by bow, xbow, horsies and ninja backstabbers.
This very large time window makes archery quite easy as you can just begin to draw and search a target at the same time. If you find your target a little too late, there's no problem as you can hold you bow ready for 2 seconds. It is much more forgiving than a 0.4 seconds time window for example, which would force you to concentrate on draw timing to get a shot in.
Most of this doesn't hold true for medium or good archers. Many are decently skilled in melee, have at least one +3 bow and +3 arrows, need 2 arrows for most full life enemies (the build is not fucked up) and learned to sidestep well (when you are far from the melee combat, evading arrows isn't that hard). Being constantly aware of your surroundings is rather a work on yourself than a real skill you have to exercice. If you look around after each arrow, you will likely not be ninja'ed, it's only a matter of self-discipline.
Saying "archery is hard for beginners" is a bit like saying "blocking is hard for beginners". Yes it was hard when you bought the game. But imagine someone that practiced archery from scratch as much as a today just-over-mediocre melee guy practiced blocking from scratch. Yeah it takes quite some time to block decently, nevertheless nearly everyone blocks decently nowadays. So it is logical that many players that didn't really tried cRPG archery are not so good at it when they start. I didn't saw any 2h or even 1h guy doing well after one week of playing this game.
Lol, the very first and nearly only thing I do is shooting enemies horses, until no horses are left, or at least are in range :D
I mean, I played cav or polearms inf for the last like 10 generations, and now I´m finally back to archery. I know how it feels when your horse gets shot away under you arse :D
Archers can have decent melee weapons, just use normal arrows (x1 loomed = 27 to a quiver) with a strong bow. Most battle maps (with less than 60 on the server) 27 arrows is plenty if you dont waste them on holy mary shots and horses that are riding away and out of range. One of my favorite things now is seeing someone charge me hoping for another easy archer kill since most carry really tiny weapons and I pull out my Masterwork Miaodao doing 43 cut damage and they slow down just a bit, maybe take a step back. Hell, with that gear you can pull out an elegant poelaxe or great long axe if you dislike shielders, an awlpike if you dislike cavalry, or a big old danish greatsword. Just learn to conserve arrows for important targets and maximum damage.
Normal arrows are nothing more than a nuisance. I wear steppe armour, and being shot by normal arrows is like a pinprick. Conserving arrows isn't the issue, the fact you're using normal arrows is. I'd bet you get more melee kills than arrow kills with those?
Honestly depends. Standard arrows with PD 8 and a MW Warbow leave a mark on anyone.
I can still two-shot my average target, and with 6 or 7 PD still two shot most targets, never more then three. A headshot is still a headshot too...
Warbow sure, that I can believe. But his example was with a strong bow and not a MW one.
Admittedly MW strongbow + MW arrows = 32 cut, then add in the 6 powerdraw. But not every archer has that setup so probably only 30 cut if they have 4 heirloom points (1 for a large bag to get it up to 27 arrows) worth, thats only 3 to 4 less damage (2 + 1 to 2 from powerdraw bonus). It takes 1 extra arrow to kill someone, or headshots, did 3 consecutive headshots earlier today and every 1 is a kill despite decent helmets. It takes me 9-10 arrows to kill someone in 3x loomed plate with strength build, but when facing someone like that your main role is to shoot them as they are being hammered on by your melee allies. I would say 60% of my kills are from melee, but only 30% of the people I wound. If you have to have the glory of being the one to kill them with your bow, probably won't be the best way to go, but if you want to be a good support character while still being able to fully defend yourself when enemies inevitably get near you, then it works out quite well. I have to say it is really nice to have a good melee weapon and rather than get in prolonged archer duels sometimes while your team is getting decimated elsewhere or an enemy hits you from the side or back, you can just duck and weave (most archers arrows are really easy toa void if you are aware of them targeting you adn there are not too many archers at once) and get up close and kill them in 1 slice maybe 2 at the most in their light armor.
Of course also with this build as a hybrid I put 124 wpf in 2h and wear 9.5 weight body armor, .5 weight gloves, .8 weight boots, and 1.5 weight helmet so most archers melee weapons dont do much damage at all (though my weight in gear makes my effective archery wpf 127). I keep debating respeccing to a dedicated archer, but its really nice to just melee sometimes with decent stats. I am starting to see more archers go this way instead of the opposite end of the spectrum, which is high athletics, pure archer who just runs away and shoots as someone gets close and repeats. (The other day I saw an archer with a mallet, was fun to watch).
Right, but if an archer who is avoiding melee who is not the last one remaining then it was considered delaying the game.
Gotcha.
Thank you for the Rules Clarification for those servers.
You'll get over it.
Archers are a fundamental part of Mount&Blade that are absolutely necessary to counter-balance what could otherwise be ridiculously overpowered classes/builds. I take a lot of flak for being an archer pretty much every single day since I started playing in April; I thought that if I treated people with some respect and got better playing my class that I would stop being bitched at day-in and day-out, but I have found that the exact opposite has happened. It seems as if the only thing people hate more than the archer class itself is dying to an archer.
At some point in the recent past, a mental switch occurred that helped me deal with, if not benefit from the constant harassment about playing as an archer: I started to actually enjoy when I killed people and they got angry about it. So the better I played, the more people bitched, and the more enjoyment I got out of the game. I'm sure you've all been in a similar situation -- this is the internet after all. The problem is, that isn't the type of player I want to be. I didn't start playing Mount&Blade because I wanted to troll a bunch of people; I started playing this game because it seemed like a cool community built around a pretty sweet game, and I figured you all would be a pretty fun bunch to fight with some swords and arrows. Despite there being a lot of truly shitty human beings that play this game, I still think my original assumptions about this community are not entirely unfounded. Quite frankly, some of you guys rock, and it is hard to find that in gaming communities these days.
In my opinion, everyone that plays this game owes it to their teammates to attempt to contribute something meaningful, and that is the philosophy surrounding my play style (along with extremely healthy doses of liquid-encouragement): I hate not being up in the enemies' faces alongside my team. I figure that just because I have a projectile doesn't mean that my job should be somehow easier or less dangerous than that of my teammates. I also find that when you're shooting arrows at people's faces from 10 feet away, you tend to hit more of the enemies and less of your teammates, and that's a win-win for everyone (well, except for the enemies, but F' them). I've seen time and time again a single well-placed arrow result in a solid victory for a melee teammate in battle, and I feel like that is probably the biggest contribution I can give to the team. I can't do that reliably if I'm not half-way across the map. Some people might, but I can't.
Plus, standing really far away from the battle is just so god damn boring :P
All of that said, I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team? What makes an archer valuable to you? Would you prefer that archers keep their distance, raining in arrows from afar? Would you prefer that archers are close enough to have your back in close combat? What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?