cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Governor on June 30, 2011, 10:55:38 pm

Title: Archers
Post by: Governor on June 30, 2011, 10:55:38 pm
Archers are a fundamental part of Mount&Blade that are absolutely necessary to counter-balance what could otherwise be ridiculously overpowered classes/builds.  I take a lot of flak for being an archer pretty much every single day since I started playing in April; I thought that if I treated people with some respect and got better playing my class that I would stop being bitched at day-in and day-out, but I have found that the exact opposite has happened.  It seems as if the only thing people hate more than the archer class itself is dying to an archer.

At some point in the recent past, a mental switch occurred that helped me deal with, if not benefit from the constant harassment about playing as an archer: I started to actually enjoy when I killed people and they got angry about it.  So the better I played, the more people bitched, and the more enjoyment I got out of the game.  I'm sure you've all been in a similar situation -- this is the internet after all.  The problem is, that isn't the type of player I want to be.  I didn't start playing Mount&Blade because I wanted to troll a bunch of people; I started playing this game because it seemed like a cool community built around a pretty sweet game, and I figured you all would be a pretty fun bunch to fight with some swords and arrows.  Despite there being a lot of truly shitty human beings that play this game, I still think my original assumptions about this community are not entirely unfounded.  Quite frankly, some of you guys rock, and it is hard to find that in gaming communities these days.

In my opinion, everyone that plays this game owes it to their teammates to attempt to contribute something meaningful, and that is the philosophy surrounding my play style (along with extremely healthy doses of liquid-encouragement): I hate not being up in the enemies' faces alongside my team.  I figure that just because I have a projectile doesn't mean that my job should be somehow easier or less dangerous than that of my teammates.  I also find that when you're shooting arrows at people's faces from 10 feet away, you tend to hit more of the enemies and less of your teammates, and that's a win-win for everyone (well, except for the enemies, but F' them).  I've seen time and time again a single well-placed arrow result in a solid victory for a melee teammate in battle, and I feel like that is probably the biggest contribution I can give to the team.  I can't do that reliably if I'm not half-way across the map.  Some people might, but I can't.

Plus, standing really far away from the battle is just so god damn boring :P

All of that said, I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team?  What makes an archer valuable to you?  Would you prefer that archers keep their distance, raining in arrows from afar?  Would you prefer that archers are close enough to have your back in close combat?  What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Dasty on June 30, 2011, 11:07:38 pm
I think that this is a fantastic post and is a topic that many people would like to talk about. I myself have many alts with each of their own individual classes including a pikeman(main), an archer, a crossbowman, a heavy two hander, and a horseman. When I play my archer I hate to stand on the outskirts of the battle shooting inaccurately into my team mates as they try to battle in melee. I love to be up close and in the battle helping my team mates get their shots in while I stun the enemy. I carry a single slot two handed mace with me into battle on my archer and my crossbowman and get the majority of my kills with it when the enemies get too close for comfort. This play style, I think, is the most useful and least annoying of all the archer play styles for other players. I would love to see more archers doing this instead of simply staying on the outskirts of battle and turning and running anytime something gets a little close to them.

Running archers are my least favorite players in the entire game simply because it shows no skill or honor in combat. Many archers that do this tell me this is the smartest thing for an archer to do because they would rather run and live than die fighting. I completely disagree with this mentality and think that these types of players should not be looked at as role models for newer players.

For reference, my archer is built 18str-21agi with 3IF, 6PS, 5ATH, 6PD, 7WM with 151 wpf in bows and 91 in two handers.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 30, 2011, 11:10:17 pm
Running archers are my least favorite players in the entire game simply because it shows no skill or honor in combat. Many archers that do this tell me this is the smartest thing for an archer to do because they would rather run and live than die fighting. I completely disagree with this mentality and think that these types of players should not be looked at as role models for newer players.

Hey I remember you...

Your that guy that last night used Admin text to tell me to stop running, despite my team outnumbering your team and having at least a half dozen remaining players... called the running "falls under general douche baggery" despite other admin (Tydeus) pointing out that I was not breaking any rules...

Jackass.

Remind me to not play on any server you have admin of, as you love to interpret the rules according to your "because it shows no skill or honor in combat."

EDIT: Now, considering Duke of Disco and such can ride around on his horse and shooting people even if he is the last one remaining, that is not "general douchebaggery" because he has an ATS tag, right? He has never once been "pink texted" for pulling that even until the last second... SO should I go join ATS, or do I need to become a HA for this behavior to suddenly become acceptable?

Hmm?
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Bramd on June 30, 2011, 11:39:01 pm
Gov, people don't complain that you run, they complain that you're terrible. 
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Governor on June 30, 2011, 11:46:12 pm
Running archers are my least favorite players in the entire game simply because it shows no skill or honor in combat. Many archers that do this tell me this is the smartest thing for an archer to do because they would rather run and live than die fighting. I completely disagree with this mentality and think that these types of players should not be looked at as role models for newer players.

I am most certainly a running archer.  I switch between a warbow and a longbow, and I always carry two quivers, so I'm not left with a lot of options in terms of defending myself at arm's length.  Not surprisingly, I disagree strongly that running or kiting is the sign of an archer that isn't willing to die fighting.  When I run, it is because if I want to fight, I must run.  Without a melee weapon, I get the vast majority of my kills from arrow shots from only a few feet away from my enemy.  I don't see how an archer kiting is any different than a melee person constantly moving around their opponent to gain positioning advantage.  My inability to fight a person at arm's length is my biggest vulnerability, why on earth would I simply let the enemy win?  I wouldn't call dying needlessly a contribution to my team.  In fact, my kiting people that are so bent on killing me has, on more than one occasion directly influenced a win for my team.  When someone is chasing me, they are not helping to gang up on one of my fellow teammates.

That said, I do find it mind-numbingly frustrating when anyone (archer or not) runs away from combat in an obvious-loss scenario just to avoid death.  If I have teammates up and the ability to run away, I will attempt to do so 100% of the time.  The moment my last teammate drops, I make a decision about whether I can win the round or not (which is usually a no), and I stop running and get what's coming to me.

Those are my feelings anyway.  Should I assume that you find no value in archers that kite?
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Dasty on June 30, 2011, 11:52:20 pm
Remind me to not play on any server you have admin of, as you love to interpret the rules according to your "because it shows no skill or honor in combat."

I have admin on 5 Servers, the NA battle servers (80 and 100 man), the NA siege server, the NA Duel server, and the NA DTV server. So you can avoid those.


EDIT: Now, considering Duke of Disco and such can ride around on his horse and shooting people even if he is the last one remaining, that is not "general douchebaggery" because he has an ATS tag, right? He has never once been "pink texted" for pulling that even until the last second... SO should I go join ATS, or do I need to become a HA for this behavior to suddenly become acceptable?

I like how you compare two totally different situations here trying to make it seem like I give special treatment to clan mates, seeing that Duke and I are in the same clan.

For the general public to know, Duke was actively running in circles on his horse shooting at enemies and pulling out his sword to kill enemies the entire time. Tears(a very fitting name) was simply running with no melee weapon and bow sheathed.

I don't see why you are so alarmed that i asked you to stop running with the admin chat and took no further action against you or your clan mates with similar tendencies to run from combat shamelessly without honor. While it was not against the rules for you to run at that moment, the only people alive on the opposing team were following you trying to catch you. This becomes a grey area of the rules when technically no one is breaking any rules but the game is being delayed due to your actions.

If you would like to continue to make my one comment in admin chat to you a big deal, so be it. It doesn't bother me and I am sorry to see you still complaining about it nearly 18 hours later. I would like to keep this post on track instead of you trying to get the community to think all ATS admins are bias to clan mates.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 30, 2011, 11:57:43 pm
I had a stick, since when the fuck is that no melee weapon ffs.
Oh, and of course you took no further action, considering while I was busy typing a response asking why the hell I had to stop running and what rules I was breaking and thus forced to run in a straight line, one of the enemy cut me down because I was unable to dodge... So I did stop running in a way...


EDIT so if someone dances too much to avoid my arrows during a match, is he delaying the game?
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: SHinOCk on July 01, 2011, 12:02:47 am
The only real problem i have with archers now beside the laser sighted arrows is just the number of them on the field... I'ts not rare to see a server populated by more than 50% ranged.. Yes i am a 2 hander, i could use a shield or just camp instead of trying to fight when the rounds begin but i enjoy the melee combat in this game... in fact this is probably the only reason why one would play this game since the rest of the mechanics can be found in other games.

Yeah sometimes i am raging but who doesnt!?. Getting owned by a good archer is something i will never cry about but it is another story when 2-3 baddies are just nuking you and finally manage to kill you after the 30th arrow. You could say pole/2 hander are OP but at least if you suck at blocking you will not do anything good for your team vs a bad archer that just spam left click until he gets lucky w/o having to risk his butt in close quarter combat
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tydeus on July 01, 2011, 12:05:30 am
My inability to fight a person at arm's length is my biggest vulnerability, why on earth would I simply let the enemy win? In fact, my kiting people that are so bent on killing me has, on more than one occasion directly influenced a win for my team.  When someone is chasing me, they are not helping to gang up on one of my fellow teammates.

Those are my feelings anyway.  Should I assume that you find no value in archers that kite?
Telling an archer not to run from melee is like telling a melee to stop trying to avoid arrows. It's absolutely retarded and anyone with this mindset has some problems. What're you so egotistical that you can't look at things from an archer's perspective or do you just not care to? Would you really refute the fact that an archer is more useful if he doesn't fight in melee? I'd question how useful he is as an archer if he chooses melee as well.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Dasty on July 01, 2011, 12:05:45 am
I am most certainly a running archer.  I switch between a warbow and a longbow, and I always carry two quivers, so I'm not left with a lot of options in terms of defending myself at arm's length.  Not surprisingly, I disagree strongly that running or kiting is the sign of an archer that isn't willing to die fighting.  When I run, it is because if I want to fight, I must run.  Without a melee weapon, I get the vast majority of my kills from arrow shots from only a few feet away from my enemy.  I don't see how an archer kiting is any different than a melee person constantly moving around their opponent to gain positioning advantage.  My inability to fight a person at arm's length is my biggest vulnerability, why on earth would I simply let the enemy win?  I wouldn't call dying needlessly a contribution to my team.  In fact, my kiting people that are so bent on killing me has, on more than one occasion directly influenced a win for my team.  When someone is chasing me, they are not helping to gang up on one of my fellow teammates.

That said, I do find it mind-numbingly frustrating when anyone (archer or not) runs away from combat in an obvious-loss scenario just to avoid death.  If I have teammates up and the ability to run away, I will attempt to do so 100% of the time.  The moment my last teammate drops, I make a decision about whether I can win the round or not (which is usually a no), and I stop running and get what's coming to me.

Those are my feelings anyway.  Should I assume that you find no value in archers that kite?

I kite all the time on my archer but my definition of kiting might be different than yours. When I kite, I usually start dong so when I notice a single enemy charging towards me from 30+ feet away. At this moment I start running towards my teams main mob as I usually am standing off to the the right or left of the blob around 20 or so feet away. This helps me shoot at the angles that are most beneficial and lead to the least team damage. Now I usually move towards my team while jumping and shooting at the charging enemy the entire time. There is never a moment where I am not drawing or shooting my bow. This type of movement is slower but I can usually land a shot or two to slow him down. Upon reaching my team if the charger is still going after me I will pull out my weapon and proceed to block repeatedly until a teammate steps in and gains aggro. At this point I will attempt to help my team mate by bashing the enemy when there is an opening.

However, like you said in your situation, you cannot carry a single slot melee weapon due to using larger bows. I advise using a zero slot hammer or something zero slot that has the ability to manual block. Now for you at the point when the team mate grabs aggro from the charger I would move to the other side of the mob and setup for shooting there. I have been highly successful with this tactic and this is not what I meant by running.

A running archer typically starts way the hell away from the mob and shoots from a distance. When they notice a charging person they typically stand still or move slowly backwards while trying to shoot him. When the charger gets within ten feet or so the archer will then take off in usually the opposite direction of the charger. They will sheathe their bow and run until they have roughly 40-50 feet of room from the charger. They will then pull out the bow and repeat the process until they are the last left alive or kill the charging opponent.

That strategy is not what I would call kiting as you are not actively trying to shoot the charger while moving away.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Dasty on July 01, 2011, 12:07:02 am
EDIT so if someone dances too much to avoid my arrows during a match, is he delaying the game?

If he is the last one left and is not moving towards you at all, yes.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 01, 2011, 12:08:36 am
If he is the last one left and is not moving towards you at all, yes.

Right, but if an archer who is avoiding melee who is not the last one remaining then it was considered delaying the game.

Gotcha.

Thank you for the Rules Clarification for those servers.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Governor on July 01, 2011, 12:11:18 am
Telling an archer not to run from melee is like telling a melee to stop trying to avoid arrows. It's absolutely retarded and anyone with this mindset has some problems. What're you so egotistical that you can't look at things from an archer's perspective or do you just not care to? Would you really refute the fact that an archer is more useful if he doesn't fight in melee? I'd question how useful he is as an archer if he chooses melee as well.

I think you might be misunderstanding what I said, or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you're saying here.  I am an archer, so I have no problem looking at it from the point of view of an archer :)  Also, I support archers running in many circumstances.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: ManOfWar on July 01, 2011, 12:15:38 am
I think you might be misunderstanding what I said, or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you're saying here.  I am an archer, so I have no problem looking at it from the point of view of an archer :)  Also, I support archers running in many circumstances.

I believe he is talking to dasty
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: duurrr on July 01, 2011, 12:15:43 am
I hate archers because of the meta-game shift from heavy Agility melee to heavy STR no agility.
An agility based melee has no chance anymore in a duel agaisnt another melee'er (since STR is so OP right now for melee).

Therefor every infantry is heavy str -> no athletics. Archer can just run away from melee np now and its annoying as fuck.

This has caused more str infantry to do cav/infantry hybrids (with 12~agi) and now cav map are fucking unplayable as a melee'r with 5000 archers and 5000 cavs

On top of that there's nothing you can do agaisn't 2 archers as a melee, you can outplay 2+ melee'r but if there's a chance you get ranged youre fucked, so fuck all of you.

-kekeeke
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Dasty on July 01, 2011, 12:16:14 am
Right, but if an archer who is avoiding melee who is not the last one remaining then it was considered delaying the game.

Gotcha.

Thank you for the Rules Clarification for those servers.

I don't think you read my post up above correctly. I took that specific situation and analyzed how it was playing out. You can't just make generalizations for every situation. The only people who were left alive were chasing you while your teammates were no where in sight. I told you to stop running so they could fight you in melee and most likely this would slow them down enough for your teammates to come and join you in battle. I don't understand how you you can try to make these generalizations based on one specific and unusual situation. In the end you were really doing nothing wrong but your actions were indirectly causing a delay in the game. I think you are mixing up my dislike of your play style with my decisions as an admin. I am letting you know now that my response to the situation was not affected at all by my disgust with your play style. Stop acting like it was and just get over it.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Cup1d on July 01, 2011, 12:19:10 am
EDIT so if someone dances too much to avoid my arrows during a match, is he delaying the game?

No, it's just silly coward without any honor and skills to avoid our arrows by his mind power. They can win but cant be respected by any ranged.


Quote
Therefor every infantry is heavy str -> no athletics. Archer can just run away from melee np now and its annoying as fuck.

If you wanna be slow as turtle - than you'll die as slow turtle too.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Governor on July 01, 2011, 12:20:25 am
I hate archers because of the meta-game shift from heavy Agility melee to heavy STR no agility.
An agility based melee has no chance anymore in a duel agaisnt another melee'er (since STR is so OP right now for melee).

Therefor every infantry is heavy str -> no athletics. Archer can just run away from melee np now and its annoying as fuck.

This has caused more str infantry to do cav/infantry hybrids (with 12~agi) and now cav map are fucking unplayable as a melee'r with 5000 archers and 5000 cavs

On top of that there's nothing you can do agaisn't 2 archers as a melee, you can outplay 2+ melee'r but if there's a chance you get ranged youre fucked, so fuck all of you.

-kekeeke

So to clarify, you hate archers because they are a good counter to the overpowered STR builds?  Shouldn't the blame there be placed on OP STR builds?  I'm not going to lie, it is immensely frustrating if I am being blamed for effectively countering what is otherwise a dominating build. :-/
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Miley on July 01, 2011, 12:20:35 am
I don't play horse archer or archer just to make my team/enemies mad. I play archer because I like arching, it's fun, and I it gets boring doing melee all the time. Everyone complains to archers, "Don't shoot into melee, you idiots!" I can't name one archer that doesn't shoot into melee. If you pick up a ranged weapon, you WILL shoot into melee, not matter who you are. So people should just quit saying that, and instead they should tell you to be more careful or something.

If they cry about archers and all that, just ignore them. It doesn't affect me if people QQ about my arching or not. I shoot from far, I shoot from close. I don't care what people are going to tell me.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Dasty on July 01, 2011, 12:22:39 am
Telling an archer not to run from melee is like telling a melee to stop trying to avoid arrows. It's absolutely retarded and anyone with this mindset has some problems. What're you so egotistical that you can't look at things from an archer's perspective or do you just not care to? Would you really refute the fact that an archer is more useful if he doesn't fight in melee? I'd question how useful he is as an archer if he chooses melee as well.

I was confused by your post until Manowar stated that it may be directed at me. I have no idea where your claim that I am egotistical came from and I have looked at it as an archer. Just because my main isn't an archer doesn't mean I am not capable of seeing the situation from an archers point of view. I mentioned above that I have an alt that I play quite frequently that is an archer. I have experimented with tactics for my archer to use and so far the best tactics I have seen used by archers are the one I described above. Kesh is a fantastic example of a highly effective archer that can still destroy people in melee. You can question how good Kesh is because he chooses to melee as well. I can see you making an argument that he is very high level but I feel like he would play just as well at a level 31 build.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 01, 2011, 12:23:09 am
I don't think you read my post up above correctly. I took that specific situation and analyzed how it was playing out. You can't just make generalizations for every situation. The only people who were left alive were chasing you while your teammates were no where in sight. I told you to stop running so they could fight you in melee and most likely this would slow them down enough for your teammates to come and join you in battle. I don't understand how you you can try to make these generalizations based on one specific and unusual situation. In the end you were really doing nothing wrong but your actions were indirectly causing a delay in the game. I think you are mixing up my dislike of your play style with my decisions as an admin. I am letting you know now that my response to the situation was not affected at all by my disgust with your play style. Stop acting like it was and just get over it.


OK, fine, let us look at this from a third person perspective.

One enemy at the time was a consistent 10 to 15 feet behind me, and the other was approaching and at the time on an intercept course of about 20 or 30 seconds... And my team was at the ice tower, which takes about 30 seconds to cross all the water and come to me.

You expect me to last, with a stick (though at the time you thought I was unarmed, this this makes this very interesting) 20 seconds, or even 10 against a melee user who was one of your renowed ones, who was using a poleaxe? And I am a warbow user, obviously not having any real melee skills... and somehow I am to buy time for my team to come to me? Interesting, I am so happy to see that you think so highly of my melee skills (especially at the time since apparently you did not notice the stick and thought I was unarmed) to be able to last that long... Thank you good sir for considering me a god amongst archers!  :mrgreen:

Also if in the end I was not doing anythign wrong but was indirectly delaying the game, then this is a contradictory statement considering you pink texted me to stop running, thus me doing something wrong...

I am making an issue of this because you made a bad call and somehow think it was a good call... So it will happen again... which is bullshit, in my not so humble opinion.

EDIT: As for your Kesh example, are you really using a person who uses a two handed sword as an example of a great archer for melee? Kesh has a lot of points left for PowerStrike and such, and is a clear hybrid who invested a lot into a melee focus not just shooting, and also only has one quiver and a one slot bow...
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Governor on July 01, 2011, 12:24:25 am
That's a reasonable mindset Miley, but part of my enjoyment comes from the feeling that I've contributed to the team in some way.  That's why I'm kind of looking for some sort of consensus from the melee crew about what they'd prefer their archer teammates to do to help contribute.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: duurrr on July 01, 2011, 12:25:15 am


If you wanna be slow as turtle - than you'll die as slow turtle too.
I dare you make a melee char with 18 agi.

You'll go insane when you need to hit some people 8+ times. :lol:
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Miley on July 01, 2011, 12:31:59 am
I dare you make a melee char with 18 agi.

You'll go insane when you need to hit some people 8+ times. :lol:

What's wrong with 21-18? I don't have to hit people 8+ times ;D (I'm actually 21-20 now)

That's a reasonable mindset Miley, but part of my enjoyment comes from the feeling that I've contributed to the team in some way.  That's why I'm kind of looking for some sort of consensus from the melee crew about what they'd prefer their archer teammates to do to help contribute.

I'm not happy if I'm not getting kills. I want to get the kills, not help my teammates achieve victory. Lols 8]
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Dasty on July 01, 2011, 12:36:27 am

OK, fine, let us look at this from a third person perspective.

One enemy at the time was a consistent 10 to 15 feet behind me, and the other was approaching and at the time on an intercept course of about 20 or 30 seconds... And my team was at the ice tower, which takes about 30 seconds to cross all the water and come to me.

You expect me to last, with a stick (though at the time you thought I was unarmed, this this makes this very interesting) 20 seconds, or even 10 against a melee user who was one of your renowed ones, who was using a poleaxe? And I am a warbow user, obviously not having any real melee skills... and somehow I am to buy time for my team to come to me? Interesting, I am so happy to see that you think so highly of my melee skills (especially at the time since apparently you did not notice the stick and thought I was unarmed) to be able to last that long... Thank you good sir for considering me a god amongst archers!  :mrgreen:

Also if in the end I was not doing anythign wrong but was indirectly delaying the game, then this is a contradictory statement considering you pink texted me to stop running, thus me doing something wrong...

I am making an issue of this because you made a bad call and somehow think it was a good call... So it will happen again... which is bullshit, in my not so humble opinion.

I dont remember ever stating that I thought you were unarmed.

I value your opinion and you might be right. Maybe I did make a bad call, maybe it was a good one. In the end, your team was victorious and the round was not delayed much further. Yes, you died because of my message while you were tying to respond to it. Its one death and an uncommon situation. I will remember your opinions on the situation and will consider them the next time a similar situation comes up.

Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Cup1d on July 01, 2011, 12:37:08 am
Quote
You'll go insane when you need to hit some people 8+ times.

Wut? Are you trying to kill them barehanded?

Standart battle build 21\18, 154 wpp in pole, mw Bec.

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Title: Re: Archers
Post by: duurrr on July 01, 2011, 12:37:22 am
I'm 24 12. o.O

I was 18 18 before... I raged out of that build ;)

Wut? Are you trying to kill them barehanded?

Standart battle build 21\18, 154 wpp in pole, mw Bec.

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can you do that w/ cut?

And with some armor that makes sense..

I have 50 armor on my light set. >.>
36+14
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 01, 2011, 12:38:39 am
I dont remember ever stating that I thought you were unarmed.

Here you go
For the general public to know, Duke was actively running in circles on his horse shooting at enemies and pulling out his sword to kill enemies the entire time. Tears(a very fitting name) was simply running with no melee weapon and bow sheathed.

Anywho, have a good day.I will leave the thread to the original purpose.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Kenji on July 01, 2011, 12:50:30 am
It seems as if the only thing people hate more than the archer class itself is dying to an archer.
I lost count to how many times I died from ranged attacks (Be it Arrows, Xbows, or Throwing) on horseback than from lances or jumping infantries. I should really make a video of it, those dying moments and take screen shots of those, I don't know why, but I think it's comical at best.

I don't know what you consider 'b*tching'? But whenever I said something like "Devious archers! Come take my charges!", "The indignity of death by an arrow in my head instead of a lance in my chest.", "Argh! The agony of getting shot down on my horseback!"

They're more like RP-rants, I'm glad to be shot down by archers, so I guess I'd look better than dying from lances since that'd just probably have a negative indication on my cavalry skills :mrgreen:

All of that said, I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team?  What makes an archer valuable to you?  Would you prefer that archers keep their distance, raining in arrows from afar?  Would you prefer that archers are close enough to have your back in close combat?  What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?
I support archers, I'm glad to have them watch my backs, and whenever my horse is shot down, I always try and regroup with the archers since I know they'd usually pick a safe spot to snipe. I've covered archers to move around and distract chasing infantries. I don't know how to put this, without ranged classes, I'd probably have less chances to see teamwork that made me even more immersed into this awesome game.

Edit: Reminds me of Fallen archers, I remember Loki and some of his clanmates would work together (One serve as bait to lure me around chambering my lance and leave my flanks wide open) and take me down whenever I'm not watching. Those are great moments, even though I didn't enjoy getting shot down :?
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Jacko on July 01, 2011, 12:53:35 am
I kill as many melees with my 0 slot unloomed hammer as I kill archers with my arbalest. This thread... *shakes head*

Archers will play as archers and melee as melee, working Together you can overcome each others weaknesses. Of course public play will be fucked by over representation of certain classes, if you can't handle that, stick to clan matches or something.

Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Cup1d on July 01, 2011, 12:57:12 am
Yes, I can do this with cut. And you can do it too. With Mighty Great Long Bardiche for example.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/glb.jpg/)


Also you'll have stun, reach, horse stopper and shield chopper with GLB.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Bulzur on July 01, 2011, 01:28:20 am
If i have more PS than PD, am i a bad archer ? :rolleyes:
Seriously, spiked mace is... so good. I even consider using one for my 2h character. (what ? to spam it ? bahhh, no, no, of course not... ok, maybe a bit) I'll never heirloom it though.

If i only have 17 arrows, and i'm the last guy, and i have a backup melee weapon, and there's 2 min left remaining, can i run/jump/shoot if there's less than 4 ennemies, to actually try (and maybe succeed) to win this ? And then i guess i'll have to be sure an admin is there, so that when opponents poll me, they(admins) can change poll vote requirements to 99%.  :rolleyes:

Anyway, i become an archer because of other archers, cavs and very good 2handers players (and maybe because of ninjas too, special thanks to Thomek for training me in shooting him them), and i really like the strongbow build. People won't complain that you do too much damage, and you have sometimes this extra 0.5sec in shooting speed wich allows you to shoot a cav, unsheath your melee weapon, and down block just in time. Doesn't work against arabian horse, afaik.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Bija on July 01, 2011, 02:25:24 am
The whole concept of archery is honorless; to deal damage from range without the risk of taking damage. Ballistic weaponry is the very essence of self-preservation in combat as evidenced by modern warfare. There is no swords. The claymores of today will blow up in your face.

People should accept archery for what it is and move on with their lives.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tydeus on July 01, 2011, 02:32:54 am
Yes, I can do this with cut. And you can do it too. With Mighty Great Long Bardiche for example.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/glb.jpg/)


Also you'll have stun, reach, horse stopper and shield chopper with GLB.
50 armor is low when you're talkin about having to hit people 5 times, it's obviously not on clothies, so you should be looking at plate, so a minimum of 65 armor. Second, using one of the two highest cut damaging weapons is a bit aside from the point and the bec is an extreme case and the only weapon that lets you maintain retarded damage with an agi build. Try the danish, and a non loomed one at that. 154 wpf isn't realistic, you have to be naked to have that much effective wpf with a 21/18 build.

Try a Danish Greatsword (The most popular 2her) with a 21/18 build at 110 effective wpf against 70 armor. It could take quite a few hits to kill your opponent.

And with the original post from kekeeke concerning this aspect of melee which is a pseudo buff to ranged, I've thought the same thing which is why I switched to the bec. It's the only weapon in the game that allows you to have a 18/21 build and still do amazing damage against plate(the only melee worth making a counter-build for). I do more damage at 6 PS with my bec than I do at 9 PS with my miaodao.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Knute on July 01, 2011, 04:43:46 am

I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team?  What makes an archer valuable to you?  Would you prefer that archers keep their distance, raining in arrows from afar?  Would you prefer that archers are close enough to have your back in close combat?  What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?

I'm not an archerphobe and don't have any issues with them or any other class.  People should play however they want, that said, here's a few suggestions for archers playing siege.

1. This is mostly for reloading xbowers but archers too, try not to block the ramp.  The ramp is like a beach on D-Day, we want to move past it quickly so they can't hold us at a chokepoint. It's good that you're dueling enemy ranged but just keep an eye out and make sure you're not blocking the melee people from moving forward, especially when a ramp gets buggy and we need room to do a running jumps.

2.  On some maps like Ulbas (see spoiler) it's like walking into a firing squad if the defending archers are unopposed.  So maybe get closer to the walls and use a fast bow so it's slightly harder for defending archers?  Or if we don't have enough melee to push past the chokepoint, maybe temporarily pickup a weapon and join the mob trying to push our way in?
(click to show/hide)

3. If there's a big mob of enemy on the flag and you're close by, try to move in to stop the flag from going down or at least get close to draw a few of them away from the flag so it goes down slower?  If there's 4+ people on the flag, chances are slim you'll be able to shoot them all before the flag goes down.  It's understandable that you can't do much without armor or melee weapons, and will probably fail, but it's always possible that a couple seconds delay might be just enough time for your melee teammates to arrive and clear the flag.  Thank you and goodnight.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: MrShine on July 01, 2011, 05:54:50 am
People don't like archery because they feel like they can't determine the outcome of the fight.  If they lose in melee it's because they made a mistake.  If they lose to an archer it's because the archer did something good.

When I go archer you better believe I do a lot of running... not so much just focused on running away and drawing things out because that's lame, but run for a bit, jump back for a few swings, if I get some distance pull back out and shoot some more... keep alternating like that.  You have to use your strengths to your advantage.  If you are fighting toe to toe with the full melee heavily armored player when you have 2 ps and 8 athletics you're doing something wrong.

I've definitely noticed more hate when I go a gen as archer, but I know that I help my team win and that's just how it goes.

People need to deal with it.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on July 01, 2011, 06:06:49 am
There is only one thing i truly hate about archers, when they shoot into the mele. Ill be fighting some guy and just when im about to deliver the finishing blow i get shot in the back, staggered and killed. I know you have the best intentions but when people duel and strafe around eachother mistakes like these happen often.

In the begining of the round i would like to see archers dealing with horses more than shooting the mass miles away. Awearness is the key imo, how many times do i see enemy cav just walking behind our group being ignored like they are invisible or something and picking off blind fools. Thats the beggining, and when that phase ends i think they should focus on shooting the enemy archers if they get close enough to them. When the skirmish is over then they should pick off the rest of the mele

Ofcourse this is an ideal situation which, if realised, should ensure a win.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on July 01, 2011, 06:21:22 am
Yeah I have an archer alt, and I like it, it is fun, but I feel like I have a tendency to go tunnel-visioned as I can just keep firing; when I use my crossbow, I maintain awareness whilst reloading. I can't count the amounts of times I have shot into melee from all kinds of distances and hit enemies and allies, causing staggering and death by the other duelling combatant. Teamwork is lacking and archery just seems to prevail when there is a long distance to close between enemy forces, and not enough cover in between, or cavalry to harass them. I'd love to play a strat battle commanding lines of ranged cowards. "Release arrows!"  8-)
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 01, 2011, 06:45:53 am
Archers shoot arrows at people from far away.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 01, 2011, 09:12:35 am
Archers shoot arrows at people from far away.
This motherfucking quote. Thank you.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Gnjus on July 01, 2011, 09:16:43 am
Archers are a fundamental part of Mount&Blade that are absolutely necessary to counter-balance what could otherwise be ridiculously overpowered classes/builds.

/ double facepalm.

I'm not even gonna bother with reading the rest.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Eldon on July 01, 2011, 09:26:33 am
I'm 18, 18 and I destroy archery with 250 ping. Just saying :P
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Dezilagel on July 01, 2011, 09:44:48 am
I'm 18, 18 and I destroy archery with 250 ping. Just saying :P

This.

Low ping needs a nerf, it is currently op in melee.

Normal ping needs a slight tweak to allow it to compete in melee, while increasing the hax defence vs archers.

Chinese ping needs a major nerf, it is currently VERY op vs archers as teams can use fake hi-ping peasants to draw enemy fire. (And I've never met the archer who doesn't shoot at peasants)
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Duerkos on July 01, 2011, 10:06:26 am
People don't like archery because they feel like they can't determine the outcome of the fight.  If they lose in melee it's because they made a mistake.  If they lose to an archer it's because the archer did something good.

People need to deal with it.

This is it.

I am going to go back to polearm because I don't find archery that enjoyable. Friendly archers love to camp (and I definitely don't like that), and when I go to help the melee guys, most of the time I got killed by cav as nobody cares to try to help me.

Also, finding out I can do more or less good with a long spear with 1 wpf proficiency (provided I know I'll suck in 1vs1) has helped much.

Quote
(And I've never met the archer who doesn't shoot at peasants)
Well, here you have one. I never shoot to peasants as they are useless. If I recognize any high skilled player in melee, I try to kill him first, regardless of armor. If not, I go to kill cav. Peasants are the last option.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Cup1d on July 01, 2011, 01:42:46 pm
50 armor is low when you're talkin about having to hit people 5 times, it's obviously not on clothies, so you should be looking at plate, so a minimum of 65 armor. Second, using one of the two highest cut damaging weapons is a bit aside from the point and the bec is an extreme case and the only weapon that lets you maintain retarded damage with an agi build. Try the danish, and a non loomed one at that. 154 wpf isn't realistic, you have to be naked to have that much effective wpf with a 21/18 build.

Try a Danish Greatsword (The most popular 2her) with a 21/18 build at 110 effective wpf against 70 armor. It could take quite a few hits to kill your opponent.

And with the original post from kekeeke concerning this aspect of melee which is a pseudo buff to ranged, I've thought the same thing which is why I switched to the bec. It's the only weapon in the game that allows you to have a 18/21 build and still do amazing damage against plate(the only melee worth making a counter-build for). I do more damage at 6 PS with my bec than I do at 9 PS with my miaodao.

1. Sorry mate, if I see a lot of slow tincans, I'll take best antitincan weapon. From tincan point of view I'm very bad person.
2. I use mail gauntlets, green tunic over mail, and Mail Chausses. Yes, my effective wpf is 145-148. I can live with it.
3. If you prefer to use this overrated bankrupt's sword (I mean Danish) it's your choice. In 2H department many good, anti armor weapons - mallet, Persian Battle Axe, morningstar, bar mace, great bardiche, war cleaver, great maul.

Illustration with mighty great maul and 75 armor

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 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/greatmaul.jpg/)
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: MouthnHoof on July 01, 2011, 02:16:28 pm
There is only one thing i truly hate about archers, when they shoot into the mele.
This
and archers camping nearly inaccessible places
and archers camping a mile away from combat being completely useless / not defending the flag, but at least these types do not interfere with my game since both sides have enough of those.
and just shear number of them while the shield bubble has been reduced - "hate archers, get a shield" does not hold against hordes of them.

I think that it is safe to generalize that the signature trait of a bad archer is that his self preservation is the dominant factor in his game style.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Thomek on July 01, 2011, 02:32:13 pm
FACT: I originally created Ninjas to deal with what I saw as a heavy influx of archers.. Since the dev's didn't deal with them back then I wanted to create a clan dedicated to killing them. They were at ridiculously OP at certain points in cRPG existence, and I pride myself with being at the forefront of most of the Archers nerfs! :-D

Right now.. I think they are pretty much balanced as a class, although certain Archers with loomed bows and arrows are deadly powerful and accurate. The best Archers frequently top the scoreboard, but not like the famous ones used to do like: Njord(?) POLLY_Tor, Nebun, Birdman etc etc.. Some of them seemed to have homing arrows. (Still I don't quite understand how Bulzur could hit me the other day.. I need to work on my random walk routine I think. (More random!)

In stead of an Archer nerf I would like to see an Athletics buff or weight revision on speed somehow. Need to do my tests and research.

To the OP:
Archery is by far the "easiest" class for a beginning player. You don't have to get up and close with experienced cRPG players who knows all the angles, with big loomed swords.. But. I would absolutely recommend starting out as a 2h and get over with it. Knowing the melee mechanics, and being a good dueler will make you much tougher to kill, and give you more time with the bow and more options on positioning as an archer.

Of course other players hate Archers, since to most of them, they represent a "random factor" destroying what is perceived as "skill". They need to understand that "skill" extend to where you are, and how you move at any given point in a battle, be it duel or transport.

Another reason for the Archer hate is that many of them shoot into duels.. Countless times I've been TK'd by an archer shooting into a duel between me and an enemy armored shielder. Since my strategy against shielders often depend on me getting behind them, it is always a lot of circling.. The archer is simply risking my life on my behalf, in order for him to "help" or get a killsteal.

Also.. the further away an archer is, the more dangerous he is to friendlies, because of arrow flight time. (The longer the range, the more you have to be able to look into the future)

On the other hand.. Archery is boring! At least to me.. Perhaps it starts to get interesting when you have played so much that you start to "predict" the battle and the minute movements of other players, i don know. I'm sure it's nice to load up your archer after a long day at work, fire up a joint and just left click a bit. :-D

Archer Hour lasts from 12-01 am in the night to about 3. After that it's only the hardcore no-lifers left, and the server becomes more playable.

In the end.. High ping is a good excuse to go archery. Then I do understand.. But if you have a ping of <50 try to enjoy the amazing melee mechanics, and get some adrenaline kicks.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Ylca on July 01, 2011, 02:58:49 pm
The reason people have so many problems with so many classes is they'd like to play a team game as a single player game where they are the sole hero.

Notice how people complain when people retreat into their supporting force, gaining a kill without dying?

Notice how people complain about getting shot with a bow, when shields are readily available?

Notice how people complain about overpowered cavalry when they get lanced in an open field miles away from their team?

I could keep going, but basically the main problem with complaints boils down to a "Why can't i be the hero every time!"

Too many archers? I'm a shielder, i walk towards them laughing my rear off. Cav is cutting us down? Hey there's a guy over there with a pointy stick, perhaps i should support him until the cavalry is all dead. Oh dear a plated battle tank with a 2 hander? Perhaps i should not engage in glorious 1v1 combat with someone who can take about 8 more hits than i can, fall back and return with one or two other buddies, or better yet go find an archer and cover him while he plinks away.

Most complaints could simply be responded to with this "But where were your teammates when all this was going on? Why weren't you with them?"

This isn't a movie and you can't be the star. Most builds have a counter and most build have a complementary. Avoid your counter, keep track of your complementary that's how battles are won and fun is had.

You can't complain that STR builds are the flavor of the month because no one forced you to choose a strength build. Plenty of people happily run circles around slow folk with their high athletics builds (though ath does not give near as much of a speed boost as it could) and that's the joy of this game.

When you create your character you can be whatever you want? Didn't choose a shield? Welp don't complain about arrows plunking you when you're solo. Didn't choose a 2 hander? Don't complain about not having massive raw power. Didn't choose  a pike? Well don't complain about cav.

No one chose your character but you. People complaining about other people's classes are really complaining about their lack of teamwork and their apparently poor decision for a character. If you want to have fun choose a class that can handle the challenges you face well or learn to rely on and work with teammates.

I'm not sure why this even has to be pointed out, but it's a bit important as the same people who say "Archers are overpowered because they kill my 10PS 2hander that moves like a turtle but kills in one hit" are the same people in the suggestions forum trying to "fix" archery and work on "balance".

Balance does not mean that you win every engagement, nor that every matchup is even a remotely fair one. A 2hander looming over an archer isn't a fair fight, but then again neither is an archer shooting at a 2hander from across the field.

Get over this hero of the day mentality so that we can actually work on balancing real issues, instead of petty personal gripes.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Adrian on July 01, 2011, 03:03:57 pm
Haters just gonna hate......

With that being said archery is just one of those playstyles that the "simple minded players" are always going to whine about. The sad thing though is the fact that archery is bitched about probably more than any other class that i've seen in the game, especially now that throwers have been nerfed. People groan and cry just so hard when it comes to the archer class and it takes a lot more flak than it deserves.

A lot of players love to complain about how archers fire into melee friendly firing their teammates causing them to die when in most cases that player was getting their ass handed to them and a ranged player attempted to assist them, but made a mistake and accidentally wounded them instead of the enemy. This happens, accidental team hits/team kills always will. The sad part of this is that most players receive large amounts of melee team hits aswell while fighting. In my personal experience i actually get team hit by melee probably 3x as much as i do by any archer. Yet people will always choose to rage at the range, but I have come to accept this and will still continue to help teammates by stunning enemies while they are engaged in melee combat.

As far as archers running from enemies I fail to see the argument here. Archers are a RANGED class believe it or not. If I am able to kite opponents by simply running a few paces then turning and shooting at some stupid tin can build with very low athletics then hells yes i'm sure going to do it. Why would a strength built melee player expect any archer to engage them in melee combat. That's literally like asking the melee player to pick up a bow off the ground and fight the archer in ranged combat, its just plain stupid. Now are there times when an archer should accept defeat or give up the run? Yes of course. In situations where say a 2 slot bow archer with a 0 slot hammer is the only player remaining against a large force chasing them then yeah I would say your probably beaten and should except your fate. But if I have teammates alive you best believe i'm going to kite you all the way to them while firing arrows into your chest on the way there.

Anyway, in the end everyones going to hate whatever causes them the most grief while playing, truth is that people need to except that you win some and you lose some. There's a counter to almost every class in the game. An Archer with a long bow that can actually aim will annihilate a slow tin can chasing them, while that same archer will get his stuff pushed in by say a good cav player who keeps pressuring them or flanks them when they're distracted or running away. These are the things that make this game great, the diversity in classes and how you choose to build your character will obviously effect your strengths and weaknesses out in the field when fighting. How a player chooses to negate their weaknesses is up to them recognizing them first, complaining about a class that occasionally counters your own wont really get you anywhere.

With all this being said, I just want to close with a message to all the players who despise archers. Even though archers have been nerfed, we're still here bitches and always will be. Cry all you want because the dedicated ranged players have taken this much hatred already and are still in the servers shooting you in the face and I personally don't intend to stop due to the occasional ranting about how much people hate "ranged baddies". So haters please just keep hating.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Kafein on July 01, 2011, 03:27:51 pm
I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds. Also, the current accuracy seems a bit too high, especially for longbows. Devs could even increase the damage IMO but it is really too easy when you can hold your arrow ready during two hours.

Because of this, it is actually impossible for a mainstream cav to attack an archer up front, even alone and on flat terrain. Longbow or strongbow, both will headshot the horse.

So basically you need a very good distraction even for archers. If there are 2 or 3 archers grouping up (which happens often), any attack angle will fail.

Shields have a different problem as an "anti-archer" force. First, they are slow. A shielder can hardly ever kill a decent archer running away. Second, they have to face all the melee that get in the way. As they are slow, they can't just run to the archers without fighting the melee. They have to use their shield to protect themselves from arrows anyway, so -30% speed iirc. And third, many shields have very little coverage (actually even some of the tier 4 shields cover less than what the model shows, especially on the sides), which makes spread archers very hard to reach before being shot to death.

All in all, archers usually never die if their team doesn't loose. An archer killed by a melee in the middle of a round was probably tunnel-visionning, away from his teammates or just being a noob.

So yeah, my point is, archers have little to no effective counter, yet are very effective killing machines.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Spurdospera on July 01, 2011, 03:36:50 pm
I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds. Also, the current accuracy seems a bit too high, especially for longbows. Devs could even increase the damage IMO but it is really too easy when you can hold your arrow ready during two hours.
I can see that you haven´t even tried out archery.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Ylca on July 01, 2011, 03:39:36 pm
I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds.

This line negated the entirety of your post and shows that you have only played an archer in native, not CRPG. The reticle "close" time for the Strongbow, Longbow, and Warbow is 1.5 seconds. There's the time it takes to draw, then a 1.5 second window of accuracy before having to fire or redraw. You have no idea what you're talking about and you're tossing out words like you do, one of the major problems with any discussion of mechanics in this game.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: karasu on July 01, 2011, 04:03:56 pm
I would enjoy the game more if archers weren't able to keep a virgin tight reticule during 20 seconds. Also, the current accuracy seems a bit too high, especially for longbows. Devs could even increase the damage IMO but it is really too easy when you can hold your arrow ready during two hours.

I think you're confusing things with Crossbows. In case you haven't tried archery in cRPG, on mouse 1 pressing, specially with longbow p.e., you have something like 2 seconds or more until the reticule gets to the maximum accuracy point, which doesn't actually stops at that point, and goes back to the opening process.

There are two types or players regarding this situation with reticule. Those who hold the mouse button and release only when they have a clear and sure shot, preventing all types of mistakes, and those who actually only press once the mouse button, and the arrow releases automatically at that maximum accuracy point, with the high risk of getting team hits, or constant misses.

In Crossbows, if you hold down the mouse button, and stand still, the reticule stands always at maximum accuracy, no timer involved. If you move the mouse slowly, no fast movements, the reticule will stay at that maximum accuracy point. If you do a fast movement it will widen a bit going back to maximum accuracy when you stop the movement.

Hope this was of any help, and I can fraps these explained details/situations in case of any confusion, cause fortunately, I know what I'm talking about since my main is an archer and one of my multiple alts is a dedicated crossbowman (which has no problems in topping scores with arbalest on battle servers, no gloating intended, just facts about balancing).
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Peasant_Woman on July 01, 2011, 04:18:50 pm
Archers are fine. Even if you can't outright counter them (shields) you can at least not make it easy for them.

Heres how to beat most archers, straight from the ninjas mouth;
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Keshian on July 01, 2011, 04:25:28 pm
I hate archers because of the meta-game shift from heavy Agility melee to heavy STR no agility.
An agility based melee has no chance anymore in a duel agaisnt another melee'er (since STR is so OP right now for melee).

Therefor every infantry is heavy str -> no athletics. Archer can just run away from melee np now and its annoying as fuck.

This has caused more str infantry to do cav/infantry hybrids (with 12~agi) and now cav map are fucking unplayable as a melee'r with 5000 archers and 5000 cavs

On top of that there's nothing you can do agaisn't 2 archers as a melee, you can outplay 2+ melee'r but if there's a chance you get ranged youre fucked, so fuck all of you.

-kekeeke

I fully agree.  I abhor camping, but finding myself forced to because often 30-50% of the server will be cav on their silent ponies and I don't want to walk around with a constant downblock constantly turning around waiting to be couched to death by some cav guy going near full speed around a corner 30 feet away and hitting me 1 second later.  As an archer, most archers are actually pretty easy to doge their arrows with how slow draw speed is, often rather than waste a minute and my limited stack of arrows in an archer duel while we each dodge each other's slow arrows (plus its a pain to archer duel with effective archer wpf of 127 against someone with 165 wpf with a much higher draw speed), I will just dodge and weave (8 athletics) toward the 2-3 archers shooting at me and pull out a 2-slot 2hander and kill them in their light armor in 1-2 hits.  Then go back to using arrows to kill horses and stun tincans in fights.  Knowing how often I do this, its odd how many 2handers/polearmers complain about archers as often they are some of the easiest kills in melee with only a 0 slot weapon to defend themselves. 

Now strength builds with heavy armor (often those complaining as too slow to dodge well) are a pain to fight as you can shoot them 8-12 times and they dont die (unless longbow/xbow) or you can slash them 5-7 times with a sword to same effect or just get that teammate with the bec or 1 handed bec (pick) who will kill them in a couple hits to attack them while you distract or arrow stun the strength build.  Very little disadvantage to swing speed with a  strength build right now so it proliferates, and with far fewer pikes and throwers, much easier to get kills as cav so they proliferate and then you see a bunch of archers camping hoping to kill some of these classes before they get too close.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: kursad on July 01, 2011, 04:53:49 pm
The reason people have so many problems with so many classes is they'd like to play a team game as a single player game where they are the sole hero.

You can argue about archery for hours (actually years, nerf archery arguments have been coming up since the first day of native beta) but this is the main reason of the problem. People just want to be the hero they watch in movies and arrows never hit the hero in movies.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 01, 2011, 05:01:22 pm
Lol everybody mad.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: ThePoopy on July 01, 2011, 05:10:49 pm
 :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: NERF! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on July 01, 2011, 05:46:44 pm
-1 Airstrike fired.

And no keshian that hot asian chick picture didn't save you from the bombs.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Lech on July 01, 2011, 06:39:44 pm
What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?

Kill horses instead of hunting peasant.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Delro on July 01, 2011, 07:11:20 pm
I'm sure it's nice to load up your archer after a long day at work, fire up a joint and just left click a bit. :-D

You said it brother. This is basically the reason my archer and horse archer alts exist.

Quote
Shields have a different problem as an "anti-archer" force. First, they are slow. A shielder can hardly ever kill a decent archer running away.

My main, a shielder, begs to differ. Athletics FTW baby! My favorite line was when an archer clanmate of mine bitched in Vent; "He's wearing full plate and he still catches me? Bullshit!" I'll chase you arrow-whores down all day every day. Its probably the only class I can consistently kill in melee anyway, scrub that I am ;D
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Overdriven on July 01, 2011, 07:29:12 pm
I used to play foot archer. And always get flak for it. Now I play HA and get 10x more flak :lol:

I have no problem with archers who run away to shoot. It's not delaying, it's their build. I've seen plenty of archers kill tin cans this way. And you can't rage about it as a melee player. You chose to be melee, you have to accept the weaknesses of your build.

The one thing that annoys me about archers at the moment though is their insistence on trying to archer duel at great distances. They make it so you can't get a shot off at any one else, yet they don't stand a chance of hitting you because of the flight time of arrows being slow. All you have to do is side step. Yet a lot of archers continue to try this (except the best, they just run to a position where you can't see them and ignore you if you try to shoot them).

I think shooting into melee is something you learn with time. I know I do it now. But I won't shoot randomly until I hit something like I used to. I wait until I have a very clear shot. It means constantly loading and not firing, but it's worth it if my arrow results in a friendly melee getting a kill. It's rare that I hit team mates when I'm on foot. Usually if I do it's due to a slip of the finger, or the damn equipment screen (evil thing).  Also if your teams melee can see there is a friendly archer, try position yourself so that the archer can get a clear shot on the enemy melee. It will only help you as I doubt the archer will one shot him and it'll result in a stagger kill for you.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: SchokoSchaf on July 01, 2011, 08:09:12 pm
For reference, my archer is built 18str-21agi with 3IF, 6PS, 5ATH, 6PD, 7WM with 151 wpf in bows and 91 in two handers.
Just a small unrelated question to the side - asuming that you go for lvl 30, mind telling me where you get all those skill points for your skills?
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Osiris on July 01, 2011, 08:25:07 pm
2h/polearm users generally whine and qq about every other class being skilless noob and cowards :D just ignore them :P
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: [ptx] on July 01, 2011, 08:49:47 pm
What i would recommend, is trying out other classes. Basically, make alts, lots of them.
See how it is on the other end of the arrows flight path and you will have an easier time playing an archer as well. Works the other way as well, maybe even better.
Understanding is key.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Governor on July 01, 2011, 09:15:24 pm
I appreciate all of the input, but I don't think I was clear enough about my intentions with this post.

I consider myself to be a decent archer, and I think I have a solid understanding about how to play the class.  I kite a lot, I pick on tin cans mostly, and I am very aggressive; I do not apologize for any of that.

However, I am intrigued to hear from melee players: what can I do to be a better teammate for you?  Archers are obviously not going anywhere, so you will have to continue dealing with them.  Rather than what you do to counter archers or what you think your archer opponents should be doing, I am curious as to what you would prefer your archer teammates to be doing in order to help you.  We are a support class for the most part, so what can we do to support you in combat?
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Delro on July 01, 2011, 09:24:10 pm
I appreciate all of the input, but I don't think I was clear enough about my intentions with this post.

I consider myself to be a decent archer, and I think I have a solid understanding about how to play the class.  I kite a lot, I pick on tin cans mostly, and I am very aggressive; I do not apologize for any of that.

However, I am intrigued to hear from melee players: what can I do to be a better teammate for you?  Archers are obviously not going anywhere, so you will have to continue dealing with them.  Rather than what you do to counter archers or what you think your archer opponents should be doing, I am curious as to what you would prefer your archer teammates to be doing in order to help you.  We are a support class for the most part, so what can we do to support you in combat?

One of my favorite things to do as a shielder is circle kite the enemy in front of my archer buddies. On narrow entrances or bridges, what I will do is confront the enemy head-on, pushing them back with attacks and defending with my shield, and when they are maybe 20-30 meters from the archer I will attempt to circle behind them. This gives them 2 choices; turn and face the immediate threat of my sword, thus exposing their back to the archer and making them easy pickings, or attempt to charge the archer and get a sword in the back for their trouble.

Good archer support properly waits for me to create that opening - poor archer support shoots me in the back :P

Sometimes, the enemy will get past me and come at the archer, in which case it is always preferable for the archer to get out a melee weapon, block as much as they can, and get back behind me. This way, they are safe to pull out the bow again and I can continue the pattern until the enemy is down. Think of it as "tank & spank" :D

Your method of close archer support is awesome. I totally agree with it and it is what I do when I play my archer alt. Usually I can be found running directly amid my main infantry group, peeling off to flank when the enemy engages. Just be patient, pick your shots, and know when not to shoot, and you'll be great close-ranged support for the men with the sticks and swords!
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: PieParadox on July 01, 2011, 10:36:02 pm
The main reason archers are hated are just because they are SO frustrating.

Overall they become frustrating when they ruin a "good duel" or kill steal/teamwound... (Dont care about KS). The worst is probably getting shot by an arrow, stunning you for the enemy to kill you (which the archer ofc plans). The idea is that no matter how good an archers teamwork is, people will always hold contempt for them.. You will never say "good fight" to an archer

It's just annoying to try and hit a person who will always keep their distance from you. They are support class and will play as such.

When I first started playing I hated archers with a passion. Now I don't really care as much unless theres 3 or 4 archers camping with machinegun bows as you run at them.

Become a respected archer like kesh, vick, or damatacus (all i can think of now).
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Ylca on July 01, 2011, 11:43:23 pm
There is no such thing as kill stealing in CRPG. This isn't COD where you respawn instantly. Every second an enemy is alive is a second closer to taking out one of your teammates. The faster he is dead, the better off the team no matter who gets the killing blow.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Dezilagel on July 02, 2011, 12:50:57 am
As someone else said, it's a great difference between dying in melee and from ranged.

Melee: You die because you make mistakes.

Ranged: You die because someone else decided to point at you and left-click. (Also a great randomness factor if you dodge randomly/if at long range/if shooter has low wpf)

This is how I feel atleast, but I do understand why archers do not want to melee ofc (they're not built for it). However, running across half the map just to kite one melee guy is not helping your team very much (they're no longer benefitting from your support capabilities), and is VERY frustrating (melee can't catch him, and can't run away because then he'll just continue to shoot melee guy anyway).

Archers (well, ranged in general) are also a major reason to str being the prime choice for inf, most of my melee friends are now full str tankmonsters primarily just because they want to survive all the crap that is flying through the air.

About archers firing into melee... Don't do it unless you are absolutely certain that you will not hit a teammate. While in a melee, you are of course on the lookout for enemy archers, and spotting them (or their arrows), you will anticipate getting targeted and shot, adjusting your style of play. However, noone expects a friendly arrow in the neck, and they are as such much more deadly, and likely to cause your demise.



Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 02, 2011, 12:51:23 am
Didn't read the thread but I'll just leave this here.
Archer enjoys his day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok1c41FJLSg
EDIT: let's add a smileyface :)
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: PhantomZero on July 02, 2011, 01:06:16 am
You gotta stop taking arrows so personally. It's random chance, an act of nature, like finding a quarter on the ground.

It's just something that happens. Be glad archers only get 30 or so arrows rather than the 90 they could have before.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Gondemar on July 02, 2011, 01:53:37 am
What i would recommend, is trying out other classes. Basically, make alts, lots of them.
See how it is on the other end of the arrows flight path and you will have an easier time playing an archer as well. Works the other way as well, maybe even better.
Understanding is key.

This.
I must say being ranged killed is often frustrating when it happens in the first two minuts of the round, just because it will prevent you from playing for the next 3 - 4 minuts. After that... Well, this is war. My main is a 2 hander, and if it often happens that I know that I will die by the arrow ( like 10 vs 10 at 6 in the morning : "Oh crap, Tenne, Cheapshot and Everkistus on the other team..." ), but I enjoy myself trying to hide from them or ambush them, ot just sometimes troll-dodging in open field (which is not really a good idea, but hey, what the hell - and don't try this at home ).

And playing an agi runner archer alt lately, I must say I had fun running away from tincans (when I'm not last), or shooting into melee with my crappy nomad bow to get unblocked hits for my teammates. And I still get f****d really often by other archers... So yeah, I hate this, but I get the runners. The only thing is it's often really boring to watch arrows flying randomly for the last 2 minuts of a round ; when I'm last as an archer I try to go to melee asap, or at least alternate (kill one in melee -I still try to have a good PS and melee wpf-, shoot a few arrows at the next one, go back to melee... Eventually try to loot a better weapon).
Same about roofcamping or camping unreachable spots. It's quite normal during a battle, but as soon as there are only a few ppl left, they should just go down, or find other spots (you're an archer ffs, try some hit-and-run guerilla tactics with other archers, camping is just lame and boring "No we don't have to go down, there's still one of our teammates running somewhere reachable on this map."
But in the middle of a round, again, no problem with that, instead, finding a way to get close AND alive to the enemy is part of the game.

My conclusion is : bitch about archers if they really deserve it (no fair play, ...) as you would any other Player, not because they are archers. Try to play as an archer ; when I do I try to go to melee often, but it is exactly the same as, as a 2 hander, dancing in front of a hill covered with archers : you know you'll die fast.

Knowing that, you'll find yourself way more tolerant to sneaky arrows or runaway archers. War's a bitch for all of us.







Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Kafein on July 02, 2011, 02:43:09 am
I can see that you haven´t even tried out archery.

This line negated the entirety of your post and shows that you have only played an archer in native, not CRPG. The reticle "close" time for the Strongbow, Longbow, and Warbow is 1.5 seconds. There's the time it takes to draw, then a 1.5 second window of accuracy before having to fire or redraw. You have no idea what you're talking about and you're tossing out words like you do, one of the major problems with any discussion of mechanics in this game.

I think you're confusing things with Crossbows. In case you haven't tried archery in cRPG, on mouse 1 pressing, specially with longbow p.e., you have something like 2 seconds or more until the reticule gets to the maximum accuracy point, which doesn't actually stops at that point, and goes back to the opening process.

There are two types or players regarding this situation with reticule. Those who hold the mouse button and release only when they have a clear and sure shot, preventing all types of mistakes, and those who actually only press once the mouse button, and the arrow releases automatically at that maximum accuracy point, with the high risk of getting team hits, or constant misses.

In Crossbows, if you hold down the mouse button, and stand still, the reticule stands always at maximum accuracy, no timer involved. If you move the mouse slowly, no fast movements, the reticule will stay at that maximum accuracy point. If you do a fast movement it will widen a bit going back to maximum accuracy when you stop the movement.

Hope this was of any help, and I can fraps these explained details/situations in case of any confusion, cause fortunately, I know what I'm talking about since my main is an archer and one of my multiple alts is a dedicated crossbowman (which has no problems in topping scores with arbalest on battle servers, no gloating intended, just facts about balancing).


All of you, please check your sarcasm radars. Ylca, calm down a little. And karasu, maybe you want me to explain you how to block ? 20 seconds is an exageration, and 2 hours too (hell, if I refer to the same thing twice and don't mention the same value, maybe those numbers are not right ?). I played SP archery a lot, a bit in native MP and I have a level 30 archer alt. So yes I probably know you can't  be accurate forever.


An accurate time window of 2 seconds is well enough to aim at one guy, wait and shoot at another one, or leading an incoming cav to headshot the horse, as you can wait till the last moment (just before the horse bumps) and shoot when you are guaranteed the arrow will hit the horse head.

This very large time window makes archery quite easy as you can just begin to draw and search a target at the same time. If you find your target a little too late, there's no problem as you can hold you bow ready for 2 seconds. It is much more forgiving than a 0.4 seconds time window for example, which would force you to concentrate on draw timing to get a shot in.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: bilwit on July 03, 2011, 02:28:55 pm
My very first character I went through two generations as an archer. That was before I realized how asinine and out of place it is. When you think of "Mount & Blade" you think of epic melee and calvary battles, not this retarded rangefest in battle servers in which every round ends in waiting two minutes for some retard archer on a roof or horse archer to die when they'd rather run away for no good reason. Of course archers had their place in real life, but that was organized combat, not freelance trolling like in this game. Instead of coordinated and tactical volleys and skirmishes, you get individual archers with the mindset of "durrr *shoot into melee and wounds teammate*" or "durrr I can shoot and then run away and you'll never catch me gg."
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Remy on July 03, 2011, 03:44:07 pm
Anything done well is a source of annoyance.

Armor can be frustrating, certain weapons can be frustrating, cavalry can be frustrating, archers can be frustrating.

Them's the breaks.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Brutal on July 03, 2011, 04:34:47 pm
Personally i like to play my my old friendcher (wut can't write fa*cher ?  :mrgreen: ), for the challenge it offer and because playing only melee gets boring after a while.

I've way more trouble toping the scoreboard with my archer than with melee and my K/D ratio is just horrible compared to melee.
When i top the scoreboard 95% of the time it is because I went into a rampage using my backup melee weapon instead of my bow.

Also starting cRPG playing as an archer is IMHO just the hardest way to get started cuz:

1.no armor + no awareness = very quick death
2.You get very little practice in melee, so you improve very slowly
3.You need higher level than melee to start being useful
4.heirloom are most important in archery and when you start you've no heirloom
5. You deal low damage. It's just way easier to whack some heads twice with a big sword than to shoot 3-6 arrow in the same guy to get a kill.
6. Archer are the perfect target for other archer, this mean that the so called "easy mod" is just a myth because even if you're far from combat you will get targeted a lot more than melee by bow, xbow, horsies and ninja backstabbers. 

Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Memento_Mori on July 03, 2011, 05:11:03 pm
:3 so after reading this I guess I'll take getting struck by arrows a little more lightly, for the record, I don't hate you Governor (and other archers) I simply thought you hated me and my other melee buddies because of all the nasty scars your arrows have given us. xD
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: okiN on July 03, 2011, 05:17:23 pm
All of that said, I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team?

I want them to stop shooting me in the goddamn back, especially when I'm trying to kill somebody.

Focusing on enemy horses instead of random peasants would also be a welcome change. :)
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on July 03, 2011, 08:13:20 pm
Personally i like to play my friendly archer (wut can't write fa*cher ?  :mrgreen: ), for the challenge it offer and because playing only melee gets boring after a while.

I've way more trouble toping the scoreboard with my archer than with melee and my K/D ratio is just horrible compared to melee.
When i top the scoreboard 95% of the time it is because I went into a rampage using my backup melee weapon instead of my bow.

Also starting cRPG playing as an archer is IMHO just the hardest way to get started cuz:

1.no armor + no awareness = very quick death
2.You get very little practice in melee, so you improve very slowly
3.You need higher level than melee to start being useful
4.heirloom are most important in archery and when you start you've no heirloom
5. You deal low damage. It's just way easier to whack some heads twice with a big sword than to shoot 3-6 arrow in the same guy to get a kill.
6. Archer are the perfect target for other archer, this mean that the so called "easy mod" is just a myth because even if you're far from combat you will get targeted a lot more than melee by bow, xbow, horsies and ninja backstabbers.
exactly my experiences of trying an archer. Its not so easy as it looks.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Kafein on July 03, 2011, 08:44:47 pm
Personally i like to play my friendly archer (wut can't write fa*cher ?  :mrgreen: ), for the challenge it offer and because playing only melee gets boring after a while.

I've way more trouble toping the scoreboard with my archer than with melee and my K/D ratio is just horrible compared to melee.
When i top the scoreboard 95% of the time it is because I went into a rampage using my backup melee weapon instead of my bow.

Also starting cRPG playing as an archer is IMHO just the hardest way to get started cuz:

1.no armor + no awareness = very quick death
2.You get very little practice in melee, so you improve very slowly
3.You need higher level than melee to start being useful
4.heirloom are most important in archery and when you start you've no heirloom
5. You deal low damage. It's just way easier to whack some heads twice with a big sword than to shoot 3-6 arrow in the same guy to get a kill.
6. Archer are the perfect target for other archer, this mean that the so called "easy mod" is just a myth because even if you're far from combat you will get targeted a lot more than melee by bow, xbow, horsies and ninja backstabbers.

Most of this doesn't hold true for medium or good archers. Many are decently skilled in melee, have at least one +3 bow and +3 arrows, need 2 arrows for most full life enemies (the build is not fucked up) and learned to sidestep well (when you are far from the melee combat, evading arrows isn't that hard). Being constantly aware of your surroundings is rather a work on yourself than a real skill you have to exercice. If you look around after each arrow, you will likely not be ninja'ed, it's only a matter of self-discipline.

Saying "archery is hard for beginners" is a bit like saying "blocking is hard for beginners". Yes it was hard when you bought the game. But imagine someone that practiced archery from scratch as much as a today just-over-mediocre melee guy practiced blocking from scratch. Yeah it takes quite some time to block decently, nevertheless nearly everyone blocks decently nowadays. So it is logical that many players that didn't really tried cRPG archery are not so good at it when they start. I didn't saw any 2h or even 1h guy doing well after one week of playing this game.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Overdriven on July 04, 2011, 12:45:46 am
This very large time window makes archery quite easy as you can just begin to draw and search a target at the same time. If you find your target a little too late, there's no problem as you can hold you bow ready for 2 seconds. It is much more forgiving than a 0.4 seconds time window for example, which would force you to concentrate on draw timing to get a shot in.

 :lol: This is after the draw speed nerf and accuracy nerf. God knows what you would have said before the big patch when crosshairs were closer and you could fire off accurate arrows at a rate of knots. It also wouldn't have mattered previously if you had to redraw because the speed was faster.

Most of this doesn't hold true for medium or good archers. Many are decently skilled in melee, have at least one +3 bow and +3 arrows, need 2 arrows for most full life enemies (the build is not fucked up) and learned to sidestep well (when you are far from the melee combat, evading arrows isn't that hard). Being constantly aware of your surroundings is rather a work on yourself than a real skill you have to exercice. If you look around after each arrow, you will likely not be ninja'ed, it's only a matter of self-discipline.

Saying "archery is hard for beginners" is a bit like saying "blocking is hard for beginners". Yes it was hard when you bought the game. But imagine someone that practiced archery from scratch as much as a today just-over-mediocre melee guy practiced blocking from scratch. Yeah it takes quite some time to block decently, nevertheless nearly everyone blocks decently nowadays. So it is logical that many players that didn't really tried cRPG archery are not so good at it when they start. I didn't saw any 2h or even 1h guy doing well after one week of playing this game.

Meh...so they put in the time to become good. Then they should be good. Everything is difficult at first in crpg. Thanks to me being an archer/shielder most of the time, I've only just learnt how to block properly at gen 6 after almost a year of cRPG and well over of native. Now I can do it pretty decently though, until the lack of PS and WPF in melee begins to make the difference.

I think most archers do get very little practice in melee though. If they are good, then they have probably played a melee build for a time. Apart from anything, the fact all your slots get taken up now for most dedicated builds means taking a decent melee weapon isn't really an option.

But yes as I've already said archers vs archer duels are dumb at anything over a set distance. It's too easy to dodge arrows at any range. If you get shot in a duel at distance, even as a beginner, then you are just daft.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Jetsam on July 04, 2011, 02:42:14 am
I have no problem with any archer. If I get killed by one, it's my mistake or a killer shot. Keep on doing what you're doing.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tungsten on July 04, 2011, 04:12:23 am
I just wish Archers that know they aren't the best archer would stop firing into melee. Chances are, if you don't know exactly where to put your arrow, you'll hit a friendly instead of an opponent.

As for archers running away, that's what they do. Deal with it.
So long as they aren't delaying the game or if they are the last one and are just making ground (ie. actively kiting not just fleeing).
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: DrTaco on July 04, 2011, 04:39:38 am
I think the problem everyone has with archers isn't really that they sit a bit away from combat, or they run from melee (Which can get annoying mind you).

I think it's because unless they can get up close to you, there is nothing they can do about you. If you get killed in melee it's normally your fault that you were slashed. But archery means that you can't do jack shit besides put up a shield and hope for the best. I mean, it's like the famous Troll nerf post

But all that time--

--But all that time--...

He was shooting at me.

"And there's nothing you can do about it."


http://www.wowblues.com/eu/troll-regeneration-must-be-nerfed-10106911836.html (For a reference)
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Casimir on July 04, 2011, 04:43:02 am
Getting shot in the back is always annoying, especially when fighting multiple opponents.

Any shot into melee can be disaster for anyone involved friendly or otherwise and should be avoided at all costs.

However good archery support is appreciated as ever.

In regards to running archer i think it is fine to an extent. Sometimes i rage and scream at the cowardd but i do appreciate its the best thing for most to do.

If melee runs away from archers however its the best way to survive but its still delaying.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Corpus on July 04, 2011, 11:31:35 am
I'm archer too and often get killed by the lovely cav ;)
I don't think archery is OP, it fits perfectly in the game. Also with the slots system I can only wear a War Bow and 2x Bodkin Arrows, without melee weapon.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Bija on July 04, 2011, 02:10:43 pm
Firing into melee is often necessary. Consider this scenario:

Siege, incoming attacking shielder(steel shield) and two defenders(1 melee and 1 archer).

If melee defender moves in one direction or uses a predictable but defensive movement pattern, the archer will have more room for shooting. If melee defender engages and dies, the archer is most likely dead or will have to run. Or the worst case scenario; the melee defender engages in his usual, unpredictable pattern, gets TK'ed by the archer, archer dies and the round is lost.

I've experienced all of the above as an archer, and more often than not, little attention is payed to cooperating with the archer. Doing so however would save melee players from a lot of grief, as well as give the defending archers an easier task. 
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Vibe on July 04, 2011, 02:39:53 pm
Lol, the very first and nearly only thing I do is shooting enemies horses, until no horses are left, or at least are in range :D

A rare kind.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Warsloth on July 05, 2011, 01:40:14 am
I specced an archer based on the retinue longbowmen from medieval total war...

so far (at 26)
6 PD
some athletics
3 PS
5 Shield
some WMa

wears tunic over mail, open bascinet
carries longbow, 1quiver, buckler, hammer.
would use a better melee, and sometimes change to a 1 slot bow and carry a better melee.

not a fantastic melee combatant, but never runs. Usually the buckler allows me to hold off a combatant until help arrives, or until they get TK'ed.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Vibe on July 05, 2011, 10:38:33 am
I mean, I played cav or polearms inf for the last like 10 generations, and now I´m finally back to archery. I know how it feels when your horse gets shot away under you arse :D

Hehe, so do I, mate :)

I'll make sure I stick to you next time we play.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Keshian on July 05, 2011, 05:56:30 pm
Archers can have decent melee weapons, just use normal arrows (x1 loomed = 27 to a quiver) with a strong bow.  Most battle maps (with less than 60 on the server) 27 arrows is plenty if you dont waste them on holy mary shots and horses that are riding away and out of range.  One of my favorite things now is seeing someone charge me hoping for another easy archer kill since most carry really tiny weapons and I pull out my Masterwork Miaodao doing 43 cut damage and they slow down just a bit, maybe take a step back.  Hell, with that gear you can pull out an elegant poelaxe or great long axe if you dislike shielders, an awlpike if you dislike cavalry, or a big old danish greatsword.  Just learn to conserve arrows for important targets and maximum damage.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Overdriven on July 05, 2011, 09:37:21 pm
Archers can have decent melee weapons, just use normal arrows (x1 loomed = 27 to a quiver) with a strong bow.  Most battle maps (with less than 60 on the server) 27 arrows is plenty if you dont waste them on holy mary shots and horses that are riding away and out of range.  One of my favorite things now is seeing someone charge me hoping for another easy archer kill since most carry really tiny weapons and I pull out my Masterwork Miaodao doing 43 cut damage and they slow down just a bit, maybe take a step back.  Hell, with that gear you can pull out an elegant poelaxe or great long axe if you dislike shielders, an awlpike if you dislike cavalry, or a big old danish greatsword.  Just learn to conserve arrows for important targets and maximum damage.

Normal arrows are nothing more than a nuisance. I wear steppe armour, and being shot by normal arrows is like a pinprick. Conserving arrows isn't the issue, the fact you're using normal arrows is. I'd bet you get more melee kills than arrow kills with those?
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 05, 2011, 09:47:29 pm
Normal arrows are nothing more than a nuisance. I wear steppe armour, and being shot by normal arrows is like a pinprick. Conserving arrows isn't the issue, the fact you're using normal arrows is. I'd bet you get more melee kills than arrow kills with those?

Honestly depends. Standard arrows with PD 8 and a MW Warbow leave a mark on anyone.

I can still two-shot my average target, and with 6 or 7 PD still two shot most targets, never more then three. A headshot is still a headshot too...
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Overdriven on July 05, 2011, 09:55:37 pm
Honestly depends. Standard arrows with PD 8 and a MW Warbow leave a mark on anyone.

I can still two-shot my average target, and with 6 or 7 PD still two shot most targets, never more then three. A headshot is still a headshot too...

Warbow sure, that I can believe. But his example was with a strong bow and not a MW one.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 05, 2011, 10:14:58 pm
Warbow sure, that I can believe. But his example was with a strong bow and not a MW one.

Ah, very true, very true.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 05, 2011, 10:18:06 pm
Kesh has MW arrows, MW Strong bow, and a lot of PD.
You won't survive very many.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: RagnarLodbroke on July 05, 2011, 10:20:37 pm
I once tried out the Normal Arrows on the siege server with a MW Strongbow..Dunno how many times i shot a heraldic (7 k armor) dude 7 or 8 times i think, one thing is for sure, he refused to die!

I like the MW Bodkins and the MW strongbow ALOT better! :)

Also ur able to bring a Ok wep if ur using the Strongbow and 2 quivers with MW bodkins, 34 arrows is more than enough! I usally equip the Military sickle, Langes Messer or the club looking thingy (2h) with 1 slots :)
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Keshian on July 05, 2011, 10:30:08 pm
Admittedly MW strongbow + MW arrows = 32 cut, then add in the 6 powerdraw.  But not every archer has that setup so probably only 30 cut if they have 4 heirloom points (1 for a large bag to get it up to 27 arrows) worth, thats only 3 to 4 less damage (2 + 1 to 2 from powerdraw bonus).  It takes 1 extra arrow to kill someone, or headshots, did 3 consecutive headshots earlier today and every 1 is a kill despite decent helmets.  It takes me 9-10 arrows to kill someone in 3x loomed plate with strength build, but when facing someone like that your main role is to shoot them as they are being hammered on by your melee allies.  I would say 60% of my kills are from melee, but only 30% of the people I wound.  If you have to have the glory of being the one to kill them with your bow, probably won't be the best way to go, but if you want to be a good support character while still being able to fully defend yourself when enemies inevitably get near you, then it works out quite well.  I have to say it is really nice to have a good melee weapon and rather than get in prolonged archer duels sometimes while your team is getting decimated elsewhere or an enemy hits you from the side or back, you can just duck and weave (most archers arrows are really easy toa void if you are aware of them targeting you adn there are not too many archers at once) and get up close and kill them in 1 slice maybe 2 at the most in their light armor.

Of course also with this build as a hybrid I put 124 wpf in 2h and wear 9.5 weight body armor, .5 weight gloves, .8 weight boots, and 1.5 weight helmet so most archers melee weapons dont do much damage at all (though my weight in gear makes my effective archery wpf 127).  I keep debating respeccing to a dedicated archer, but its really nice to just melee sometimes with decent stats.  I am starting to see more archers go this way instead of the opposite end of the spectrum, which is high athletics, pure archer who just runs away and shoots as someone gets close and repeats.  (The other day I saw an archer with a mallet, was fun to watch).
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Maciver on July 06, 2011, 12:58:21 am
Admittedly MW strongbow + MW arrows = 32 cut, then add in the 6 powerdraw.  But not every archer has that setup so probably only 30 cut if they have 4 heirloom points (1 for a large bag to get it up to 27 arrows) worth, thats only 3 to 4 less damage (2 + 1 to 2 from powerdraw bonus).  It takes 1 extra arrow to kill someone, or headshots, did 3 consecutive headshots earlier today and every 1 is a kill despite decent helmets.  It takes me 9-10 arrows to kill someone in 3x loomed plate with strength build, but when facing someone like that your main role is to shoot them as they are being hammered on by your melee allies.  I would say 60% of my kills are from melee, but only 30% of the people I wound.  If you have to have the glory of being the one to kill them with your bow, probably won't be the best way to go, but if you want to be a good support character while still being able to fully defend yourself when enemies inevitably get near you, then it works out quite well.  I have to say it is really nice to have a good melee weapon and rather than get in prolonged archer duels sometimes while your team is getting decimated elsewhere or an enemy hits you from the side or back, you can just duck and weave (most archers arrows are really easy toa void if you are aware of them targeting you adn there are not too many archers at once) and get up close and kill them in 1 slice maybe 2 at the most in their light armor.

Of course also with this build as a hybrid I put 124 wpf in 2h and wear 9.5 weight body armor, .5 weight gloves, .8 weight boots, and 1.5 weight helmet so most archers melee weapons dont do much damage at all (though my weight in gear makes my effective archery wpf 127).  I keep debating respeccing to a dedicated archer, but its really nice to just melee sometimes with decent stats.  I am starting to see more archers go this way instead of the opposite end of the spectrum, which is high athletics, pure archer who just runs away and shoots as someone gets close and repeats.  (The other day I saw an archer with a mallet, was fun to watch).

i am going a similiar build this gen. ( always had it on an alt. )  24/12( 2IF 8PS 4ATH 4RIDING 2HA 8PD 4WM ). All WPF in archery.  Gives me a little HA if i want it, but he's better on foot.  I like the same as Kesh, either a 2h of choice with 1 bag of arrows and strong bow, or 1slot 2hander like the messer, and 2 arrows.  Really, even 1 bag of bodkins if you wanted, is enough arrows with a good melee weapon.  I carry khergit. 

I also prefer being with the melee.  Its hard as you level, get stomped alot during the low ones.  But with level 30 with 8ps and a fast weapon, you can hold your own.

No matter your playstyle, if you try to be a good team player, most normal people are fine with whatever you play.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Joseph on July 06, 2011, 01:45:10 am
Right, but if an archer who is avoiding melee who is not the last one remaining then it was considered delaying the game.

Gotcha.

Thank you for the Rules Clarification for those servers.

You'll get over it.

EDIT: getting bitched on is the fun part of being an archer.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 06, 2011, 01:49:34 am
You'll get over it.

I did, though Polkafranzi apparently still disagrees.  :lol:
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Thtb on July 06, 2011, 03:12:16 pm
I'm a 4 if cav, lightl armor (White tunic over mail, very cheap) and I took over 12 arrows in some rounds, mostly because riding away from archer + courser = might as well be rocks.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Reinhardt on July 06, 2011, 04:42:26 pm
Archers are a fundamental part of Mount&Blade that are absolutely necessary to counter-balance what could otherwise be ridiculously overpowered classes/builds.  I take a lot of flak for being an archer pretty much every single day since I started playing in April; I thought that if I treated people with some respect and got better playing my class that I would stop being bitched at day-in and day-out, but I have found that the exact opposite has happened.  It seems as if the only thing people hate more than the archer class itself is dying to an archer.

At some point in the recent past, a mental switch occurred that helped me deal with, if not benefit from the constant harassment about playing as an archer: I started to actually enjoy when I killed people and they got angry about it.  So the better I played, the more people bitched, and the more enjoyment I got out of the game.  I'm sure you've all been in a similar situation -- this is the internet after all.  The problem is, that isn't the type of player I want to be.  I didn't start playing Mount&Blade because I wanted to troll a bunch of people; I started playing this game because it seemed like a cool community built around a pretty sweet game, and I figured you all would be a pretty fun bunch to fight with some swords and arrows.  Despite there being a lot of truly shitty human beings that play this game, I still think my original assumptions about this community are not entirely unfounded.  Quite frankly, some of you guys rock, and it is hard to find that in gaming communities these days.

In my opinion, everyone that plays this game owes it to their teammates to attempt to contribute something meaningful, and that is the philosophy surrounding my play style (along with extremely healthy doses of liquid-encouragement): I hate not being up in the enemies' faces alongside my team.  I figure that just because I have a projectile doesn't mean that my job should be somehow easier or less dangerous than that of my teammates.  I also find that when you're shooting arrows at people's faces from 10 feet away, you tend to hit more of the enemies and less of your teammates, and that's a win-win for everyone (well, except for the enemies, but F' them).  I've seen time and time again a single well-placed arrow result in a solid victory for a melee teammate in battle, and I feel like that is probably the biggest contribution I can give to the team.  I can't do that reliably if I'm not half-way across the map.  Some people might, but I can't.

Plus, standing really far away from the battle is just so god damn boring :P

All of that said, I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team?  What makes an archer valuable to you?  Would you prefer that archers keep their distance, raining in arrows from afar?  Would you prefer that archers are close enough to have your back in close combat?  What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?

Anytime I have an Acre longbowman (or any longbowman who knows how to shoot, such as yourself) I feel auto-safe. I try to protect that person and give them cover, because I KNOW in that round or another, my ass will be saved several times. Shoot into melee if you think you can take the shot, I don't care about getting kills because the TEAM gets the kill. If you can prevent an enemy flamberge from killing me, by all means headshot him from 50 yards.

Personally, the only bowmen I don't like are:
A) Horse a-.... Horse Arch-.. Horse Archers... >:C
B) Of course, those pricks who run around with the strong bow shooting accurately, hitting hard, shooting as though it was a machine gun, being able to carry a 2hander as well, and somehow have an insane amount of arrows. Also, when they bitch about enemy classes being OP.


Overall: I LOVE archers. They're a very valuable contribution to any team... if they know what they're doing. Archers can easily make or break a battle, and having a team with 5 shielders and 3 longbowmen, you can easily defeat most enemies if you play it right.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Kaelaen on July 06, 2011, 04:48:54 pm
When I'm on one of my melee builds, I simply pretend archers don't exist.  My sheer disbelief powers me through to get to locations unthinkable by people who are concerned with avoiding arrows, thus lending me easy kills to people who were expecting to have their backs covered by archers.  If I'm shot to death beforehand, I assume it was because of a natural disaster like one member of LLJK already mentioned in this thread.  Hell this one time I saw a group of 4 archers, but since I couldn't see how they could possibly have been any danger to me I simply approached them backwards.  That is, I turned around and S-keyed my way towards them.  I did not get shot at all until I turned around to kill two of them. 

(It's much the same way Cyranule doesn't believe lances on a horse exist - he still tries to do the turn around jump stab against them that was so effective when he was a two-hander with his tiny little espada and always gets couched for his troubles.  Often when this happens you can hear him complaining in vent how his character died of a heart attack mid-air for no reason.)

The thing is, bows are pathetic.  I started doing this with the standard 24/15 two-hander build (5 IF, 8 PS, 5 ath, 5 WM) but figured walking was boring as hell so I rerolled my skip to 30 Marie Anne to 21/15 ( 7 IF, 7 PS, 5 ath, 5 riding, 5 WM) and became even more resistant to arrows, in nothing but a cavalry robe.  That's super light armor, and it takes like a bajillion arrows to kill me.  Archers might as well become nonexistance if you wear any sort of armor whatsoever.  Oh friendly archer shot me in the back thus lending the bec de corbin user an opening to one-shot me?  Not the archer's fault, it was clearly polestun and polearms should be nerfed to hell, period.  Fucking pikes.

--

Oh wait there's more!  When I get really bored I sometimes drop this mindset and play an archer.  I don't play to be one of these other useless archers pointlessly shooting at targets they can't actually kill, I go purely for tin cans.  Longbow with 18/21 163 proficiency (6 PD 7 ath 7 WM 3 IF), I dropped Ryden once charging around on a horse in full plate in 3 shots with this.  Sure it doesn't have the most power, but with pierce damage you don't really need more powerdraw.  More WPF in my opinion is more important because I can shoot about as fast as a typical war bow user, and am even more accurate than the old standard 15/24 melee hybrid archer build with only 155 WPF in archery.  It's so accurate in fact I can comfortably go for headshots, rather than body shots.  Shoot for the rider, not the horse.  This has been the only archer build where I could comfortably maintain a positive KDR.

Sure I have absolutely nothing to help me survive in a melee (apart from like what 6 wpf in one-hander) but because everyone runs around with a bec de corbin these days I can simply run around with my 7 athletics to look for one and then murder people with it if they still feel like approaching.  (they always do >=D)

--

Long story short Gov, don't let people tell you what to do.  Fuck 'em all, just fire away.  If there's a 50/50 chance you have to hit the enemy as well as your ally, I say shoot.  If you kill the enemy, great!  If you get your ally killed, just think of yourself as incredibly amusing.  Whatever you do, don't stop to freaking apologize while theres a bloody wall of tin cans charging straight at you, kill them first!  Or run, but seriously it slightly annoys me when someone TKs me and then gets killed in the middle of apologizing for their actions.  Goddammit you could have avenged me!  Anyway I say shoot because I get TKed in melee far more than I get tked by friendly arrows, and that count includes getting my blocks interrupted. 

Anyway, unless your ally is a superhero and can't possibly lose the fight, you should in all honesty just go for the shot.  You're trying to hit the enemy, you are just plain going to succeed at hitting the enemy more times than you hitting your ally so it makes mathematical sense to just go for it.  Granted, it's all about the context of the thing but fuck people who complain about getting shot into melee.
Title: Re: Archers
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 06, 2011, 04:56:06 pm
(click to show/hide)

This man is a genius. I even have the exact same build, though I use a MW Warbow not a Longbow because I am a massive masochist.