Archers

[Delro]

I'm sure it's nice to load up your archer after a long day at work, fire up a joint and just left click a bit. :-D

You said it brother. This is basically the reason my archer and horse archer alts exist.

Shields have a different problem as an "anti-archer" force. First, they are slow. A shielder can hardly ever kill a decent archer running away.

My main, a shielder, begs to differ. Athletics FTW baby! My favorite line was when an archer clanmate of mine bitched in Vent; "He's wearing full plate and he still catches me? Bullshit!" I'll chase you arrow-whores down all day every day. Its probably the only class I can consistently kill in melee anyway, scrub that I am ;D

[Overdriven]

I used to play foot archer. And always get flak for it. Now I play HA and get 10x more flak

I have no problem with archers who run away to shoot. It's not delaying, it's their build. I've seen plenty of archers kill tin cans this way. And you can't rage about it as a melee player. You chose to be melee, you have to accept the weaknesses of your build.

The one thing that annoys me about archers at the moment though is their insistence on trying to archer duel at great distances. They make it so you can't get a shot off at any one else, yet they don't stand a chance of hitting you because of the flight time of arrows being slow. All you have to do is side step. Yet a lot of archers continue to try this (except the best, they just run to a position where you can't see them and ignore you if you try to shoot them).

I think shooting into melee is something you learn with time. I know I do it now. But I won't shoot randomly until I hit something like I used to. I wait until I have a very clear shot. It means constantly loading and not firing, but it's worth it if my arrow results in a friendly melee getting a kill. It's rare that I hit team mates when I'm on foot. Usually if I do it's due to a slip of the finger, or the damn equipment screen (evil thing).  Also if your teams melee can see there is a friendly archer, try position yourself so that the archer can get a clear shot on the enemy melee. It will only help you as I doubt the archer will one shot him and it'll result in a stagger kill for you.

[SchokoSchaf]

For reference, my archer is built 18str-21agi with 3IF, 6PS, 5ATH, 6PD, 7WM with 151 wpf in bows and 91 in two handers.

Just a small unrelated question to the side - asuming that you go for lvl 30, mind telling me where you get all those skill points for your skills?

[Osiris]

2h/polearm users generally whine and qq about every other class being skilless noob and cowards just ignore them

[[ptx]]

What i would recommend, is trying out other classes. Basically, make alts, lots of them.
See how it is on the other end of the arrows flight path and you will have an easier time playing an archer as well. Works the other way as well, maybe even better.
Understanding is key.

[Governor]

I appreciate all of the input, but I don't think I was clear enough about my intentions with this post.

I consider myself to be a decent archer, and I think I have a solid understanding about how to play the class.  I kite a lot, I pick on tin cans mostly, and I am very aggressive; I do not apologize for any of that.

However, I am intrigued to hear from melee players: what can I do to be a better teammate for you?  Archers are obviously not going anywhere, so you will have to continue dealing with them.  Rather than what you do to counter archers or what you think your archer opponents should be doing, I am curious as to what you would prefer your archer teammates to be doing in order to help you.  We are a support class for the most part, so what can we do to support you in combat?

[Delro]

I appreciate all of the input, but I don't think I was clear enough about my intentions with this post.

I consider myself to be a decent archer, and I think I have a solid understanding about how to play the class.  I kite a lot, I pick on tin cans mostly, and I am very aggressive; I do not apologize for any of that.

However, I am intrigued to hear from melee players: what can I do to be a better teammate for you?  Archers are obviously not going anywhere, so you will have to continue dealing with them.  Rather than what you do to counter archers or what you think your archer opponents should be doing, I am curious as to what you would prefer your archer teammates to be doing in order to help you.  We are a support class for the most part, so what can we do to support you in combat?

One of my favorite things to do as a shielder is circle kite the enemy in front of my archer buddies. On narrow entrances or bridges, what I will do is confront the enemy head-on, pushing them back with attacks and defending with my shield, and when they are maybe 20-30 meters from the archer I will attempt to circle behind them. This gives them 2 choices; turn and face the immediate threat of my sword, thus exposing their back to the archer and making them easy pickings, or attempt to charge the archer and get a sword in the back for their trouble.

Good archer support properly waits for me to create that opening - poor archer support shoots me in the back

Sometimes, the enemy will get past me and come at the archer, in which case it is always preferable for the archer to get out a melee weapon, block as much as they can, and get back behind me. This way, they are safe to pull out the bow again and I can continue the pattern until the enemy is down. Think of it as "tank & spank"

Your method of close archer support is awesome. I totally agree with it and it is what I do when I play my archer alt. Usually I can be found running directly amid my main infantry group, peeling off to flank when the enemy engages. Just be patient, pick your shots, and know when not to shoot, and you'll be great close-ranged support for the men with the sticks and swords!

[PieParadox]

The main reason archers are hated are just because they are SO frustrating.

Overall they become frustrating when they ruin a "good duel" or kill steal/teamwound... (Dont care about KS). The worst is probably getting shot by an arrow, stunning you for the enemy to kill you (which the archer ofc plans). The idea is that no matter how good an archers teamwork is, people will always hold contempt for them.. You will never say "good fight" to an archer

It's just annoying to try and hit a person who will always keep their distance from you. They are support class and will play as such.

When I first started playing I hated archers with a passion. Now I don't really care as much unless theres 3 or 4 archers camping with machinegun bows as you run at them.

Become a respected archer like kesh, vick, or damatacus (all i can think of now).

[Ylca]

There is no such thing as kill stealing in CRPG. This isn't COD where you respawn instantly. Every second an enemy is alive is a second closer to taking out one of your teammates. The faster he is dead, the better off the team no matter who gets the killing blow.

[Dezilagel]

As someone else said, it's a great difference between dying in melee and from ranged.

Melee: You die because you make mistakes.

Ranged: You die because someone else decided to point at you and left-click. (Also a great randomness factor if you dodge randomly/if at long range/if shooter has low wpf)

This is how I feel atleast, but I do understand why archers do not want to melee ofc (they're not built for it). However, running across half the map just to kite one melee guy is not helping your team very much (they're no longer benefitting from your support capabilities), and is VERY frustrating (melee can't catch him, and can't run away because then he'll just continue to shoot melee guy anyway).

Archers (well, ranged in general) are also a major reason to str being the prime choice for inf, most of my melee friends are now full str tankmonsters primarily just because they want to survive all the crap that is flying through the air.

About archers firing into melee... Don't do it unless you are absolutely certain that you will not hit a teammate. While in a melee, you are of course on the lookout for enemy archers, and spotting them (or their arrows), you will anticipate getting targeted and shot, adjusting your style of play. However, noone expects a friendly arrow in the neck, and they are as such much more deadly, and likely to cause your demise.

[Son Of Odin]

Didn't read the thread but I'll just leave this here.
Archer enjoys his day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok1c41FJLSg
EDIT: let's add a smileyface

[PhantomZero]

You gotta stop taking arrows so personally. It's random chance, an act of nature, like finding a quarter on the ground.

It's just something that happens. Be glad archers only get 30 or so arrows rather than the 90 they could have before.

[Gondemar]

What i would recommend, is trying out other classes. Basically, make alts, lots of them.
See how it is on the other end of the arrows flight path and you will have an easier time playing an archer as well. Works the other way as well, maybe even better.
Understanding is key.

This.
I must say being ranged killed is often frustrating when it happens in the first two minuts of the round, just because it will prevent you from playing for the next 3 - 4 minuts. After that... Well, this is war. My main is a 2 hander, and if it often happens that I know that I will die by the arrow ( like 10 vs 10 at 6 in the morning : "Oh crap, Tenne, Cheapshot and Everkistus on the other team..." ), but I enjoy myself trying to hide from them or ambush them, ot just sometimes troll-dodging in open field (which is not really a good idea, but hey, what the hell - and don't try this at home ).

And playing an agi runner archer alt lately, I must say I had fun running away from tincans (when I'm not last), or shooting into melee with my crappy nomad bow to get unblocked hits for my teammates. And I still get f****d really often by other archers... So yeah, I hate this, but I get the runners. The only thing is it's often really boring to watch arrows flying randomly for the last 2 minuts of a round ; when I'm last as an archer I try to go to melee asap, or at least alternate (kill one in melee -I still try to have a good PS and melee wpf-, shoot a few arrows at the next one, go back to melee... Eventually try to loot a better weapon).
Same about roofcamping or camping unreachable spots. It's quite normal during a battle, but as soon as there are only a few ppl left, they should just go down, or find other spots (you're an archer ffs, try some hit-and-run guerilla tactics with other archers, camping is just lame and boring "No we don't have to go down, there's still one of our teammates running somewhere reachable on this map."
But in the middle of a round, again, no problem with that, instead, finding a way to get close AND alive to the enemy is part of the game.

My conclusion is : bitch about archers if they really deserve it (no fair play, ...) as you would any other Player, not because they are archers. Try to play as an archer ; when I do I try to go to melee often, but it is exactly the same as, as a 2 hander, dancing in front of a hill covered with archers : you know you'll die fast.

Knowing that, you'll find yourself way more tolerant to sneaky arrows or runaway archers. War's a bitch for all of us.

[Kafein]

I can see that you haven´t even tried out archery.

This line negated the entirety of your post and shows that you have only played an archer in native, not CRPG. The reticle "close" time for the Strongbow, Longbow, and Warbow is 1.5 seconds. There's the time it takes to draw, then a 1.5 second window of accuracy before having to fire or redraw. You have no idea what you're talking about and you're tossing out words like you do, one of the major problems with any discussion of mechanics in this game.

I think you're confusing things with Crossbows. In case you haven't tried archery in cRPG, on mouse 1 pressing, specially with longbow p.e., you have something like 2 seconds or more until the reticule gets to the maximum accuracy point, which doesn't actually stops at that point, and goes back to the opening process.

There are two types or players regarding this situation with reticule. Those who hold the mouse button and release only when they have a clear and sure shot, preventing all types of mistakes, and those who actually only press once the mouse button, and the arrow releases automatically at that maximum accuracy point, with the high risk of getting team hits, or constant misses.

In Crossbows, if you hold down the mouse button, and stand still, the reticule stands always at maximum accuracy, no timer involved. If you move the mouse slowly, no fast movements, the reticule will stay at that maximum accuracy point. If you do a fast movement it will widen a bit going back to maximum accuracy when you stop the movement.

Hope this was of any help, and I can fraps these explained details/situations in case of any confusion, cause fortunately, I know what I'm talking about since my main is an archer and one of my multiple alts is a dedicated crossbowman (which has no problems in topping scores with arbalest on battle servers, no gloating intended, just facts about balancing).

All of you, please check your sarcasm radars. Ylca, calm down a little. And karasu, maybe you want me to explain you how to block ? 20 seconds is an exageration, and 2 hours too (hell, if I refer to the same thing twice and don't mention the same value, maybe those numbers are not right ?). I played SP archery a lot, a bit in native MP and I have a level 30 archer alt. So yes I probably know you can't  be accurate forever.


An accurate time window of 2 seconds is well enough to aim at one guy, wait and shoot at another one, or leading an incoming cav to headshot the horse, as you can wait till the last moment (just before the horse bumps) and shoot when you are guaranteed the arrow will hit the horse head.

This very large time window makes archery quite easy as you can just begin to draw and search a target at the same time. If you find your target a little too late, there's no problem as you can hold you bow ready for 2 seconds. It is much more forgiving than a 0.4 seconds time window for example, which would force you to concentrate on draw timing to get a shot in.

[bilwit]

My very first character I went through two generations as an archer. That was before I realized how asinine and out of place it is. When you think of "Mount & Blade" you think of epic melee and calvary battles, not this retarded rangefest in battle servers in which every round ends in waiting two minutes for some retard archer on a roof or horse archer to die when they'd rather run away for no good reason. Of course archers had their place in real life, but that was organized combat, not freelance trolling like in this game. Instead of coordinated and tactical volleys and skirmishes, you get individual archers with the mindset of "durrr *shoot into melee and wounds teammate*" or "durrr I can shoot and then run away and you'll never catch me gg."