Archers

[Governor]

Archers are a fundamental part of Mount&Blade that are absolutely necessary to counter-balance what could otherwise be ridiculously overpowered classes/builds.  I take a lot of flak for being an archer pretty much every single day since I started playing in April; I thought that if I treated people with some respect and got better playing my class that I would stop being bitched at day-in and day-out, but I have found that the exact opposite has happened.  It seems as if the only thing people hate more than the archer class itself is dying to an archer.

At some point in the recent past, a mental switch occurred that helped me deal with, if not benefit from the constant harassment about playing as an archer: I started to actually enjoy when I killed people and they got angry about it.  So the better I played, the more people bitched, and the more enjoyment I got out of the game.  I'm sure you've all been in a similar situation -- this is the internet after all.  The problem is, that isn't the type of player I want to be.  I didn't start playing Mount&Blade because I wanted to troll a bunch of people; I started playing this game because it seemed like a cool community built around a pretty sweet game, and I figured you all would be a pretty fun bunch to fight with some swords and arrows.  Despite there being a lot of truly shitty human beings that play this game, I still think my original assumptions about this community are not entirely unfounded.  Quite frankly, some of you guys rock, and it is hard to find that in gaming communities these days.

In my opinion, everyone that plays this game owes it to their teammates to attempt to contribute something meaningful, and that is the philosophy surrounding my play style (along with extremely healthy doses of liquid-encouragement): I hate not being up in the enemies' faces alongside my team.  I figure that just because I have a projectile doesn't mean that my job should be somehow easier or less dangerous than that of my teammates.  I also find that when you're shooting arrows at people's faces from 10 feet away, you tend to hit more of the enemies and less of your teammates, and that's a win-win for everyone (well, except for the enemies, but F' them).  I've seen time and time again a single well-placed arrow result in a solid victory for a melee teammate in battle, and I feel like that is probably the biggest contribution I can give to the team.  I can't do that reliably if I'm not half-way across the map.  Some people might, but I can't.

Plus, standing really far away from the battle is just so god damn boring

All of that said, I put it to you, my non-archer, bow-hating, level-headed fellow gamers: What do you want from the archers on your team?  What makes an archer valuable to you?  Would you prefer that archers keep their distance, raining in arrows from afar?  Would you prefer that archers are close enough to have your back in close combat?  What can I do, as an archer, to contribute more to our team?

[Dasty]

I think that this is a fantastic post and is a topic that many people would like to talk about. I myself have many alts with each of their own individual classes including a pikeman(main), an archer, a crossbowman, a heavy two hander, and a horseman. When I play my archer I hate to stand on the outskirts of the battle shooting inaccurately into my team mates as they try to battle in melee. I love to be up close and in the battle helping my team mates get their shots in while I stun the enemy. I carry a single slot two handed mace with me into battle on my archer and my crossbowman and get the majority of my kills with it when the enemies get too close for comfort. This play style, I think, is the most useful and least annoying of all the archer play styles for other players. I would love to see more archers doing this instead of simply staying on the outskirts of battle and turning and running anytime something gets a little close to them.

Running archers are my least favorite players in the entire game simply because it shows no skill or honor in combat. Many archers that do this tell me this is the smartest thing for an archer to do because they would rather run and live than die fighting. I completely disagree with this mentality and think that these types of players should not be looked at as role models for newer players.

For reference, my archer is built 18str-21agi with 3IF, 6PS, 5ATH, 6PD, 7WM with 151 wpf in bows and 91 in two handers.

[Tears of Destiny]

Running archers are my least favorite players in the entire game simply because it shows no skill or honor in combat. Many archers that do this tell me this is the smartest thing for an archer to do because they would rather run and live than die fighting. I completely disagree with this mentality and think that these types of players should not be looked at as role models for newer players.

Hey I remember you...

Your that guy that last night used Admin text to tell me to stop running, despite my team outnumbering your team and having at least a half dozen remaining players... called the running "falls under general douche baggery" despite other admin (Tydeus) pointing out that I was not breaking any rules...

Jackass.

Remind me to not play on any server you have admin of, as you love to interpret the rules according to your "because it shows no skill or honor in combat."

EDIT: Now, considering Duke of Disco and such can ride around on his horse and shooting people even if he is the last one remaining, that is not "general douchebaggery" because he has an ATS tag, right? He has never once been "pink texted" for pulling that even until the last second... SO should I go join ATS, or do I need to become a HA for this behavior to suddenly become acceptable?

Hmm?

[Bramd]

Gov, people don't complain that you run, they complain that you're terrible. 

[Governor]

Running archers are my least favorite players in the entire game simply because it shows no skill or honor in combat. Many archers that do this tell me this is the smartest thing for an archer to do because they would rather run and live than die fighting. I completely disagree with this mentality and think that these types of players should not be looked at as role models for newer players.

I am most certainly a running archer.  I switch between a warbow and a longbow, and I always carry two quivers, so I'm not left with a lot of options in terms of defending myself at arm's length.  Not surprisingly, I disagree strongly that running or kiting is the sign of an archer that isn't willing to die fighting.  When I run, it is because if I want to fight, I must run.  Without a melee weapon, I get the vast majority of my kills from arrow shots from only a few feet away from my enemy.  I don't see how an archer kiting is any different than a melee person constantly moving around their opponent to gain positioning advantage.  My inability to fight a person at arm's length is my biggest vulnerability, why on earth would I simply let the enemy win?  I wouldn't call dying needlessly a contribution to my team.  In fact, my kiting people that are so bent on killing me has, on more than one occasion directly influenced a win for my team.  When someone is chasing me, they are not helping to gang up on one of my fellow teammates.

That said, I do find it mind-numbingly frustrating when anyone (archer or not) runs away from combat in an obvious-loss scenario just to avoid death.  If I have teammates up and the ability to run away, I will attempt to do so 100% of the time.  The moment my last teammate drops, I make a decision about whether I can win the round or not (which is usually a no), and I stop running and get what's coming to me.

Those are my feelings anyway.  Should I assume that you find no value in archers that kite?

[Dasty]

Remind me to not play on any server you have admin of, as you love to interpret the rules according to your "because it shows no skill or honor in combat."

I have admin on 5 Servers, the NA battle servers (80 and 100 man), the NA siege server, the NA Duel server, and the NA DTV server. So you can avoid those.

EDIT: Now, considering Duke of Disco and such can ride around on his horse and shooting people even if he is the last one remaining, that is not "general douchebaggery" because he has an ATS tag, right? He has never once been "pink texted" for pulling that even until the last second... SO should I go join ATS, or do I need to become a HA for this behavior to suddenly become acceptable?

I like how you compare two totally different situations here trying to make it seem like I give special treatment to clan mates, seeing that Duke and I are in the same clan.

For the general public to know, Duke was actively running in circles on his horse shooting at enemies and pulling out his sword to kill enemies the entire time. Tears(a very fitting name) was simply running with no melee weapon and bow sheathed.

I don't see why you are so alarmed that i asked you to stop running with the admin chat and took no further action against you or your clan mates with similar tendencies to run from combat shamelessly without honor. While it was not against the rules for you to run at that moment, the only people alive on the opposing team were following you trying to catch you. This becomes a grey area of the rules when technically no one is breaking any rules but the game is being delayed due to your actions.

If you would like to continue to make my one comment in admin chat to you a big deal, so be it. It doesn't bother me and I am sorry to see you still complaining about it nearly 18 hours later. I would like to keep this post on track instead of you trying to get the community to think all ATS admins are bias to clan mates.

[Tears of Destiny]

I had a stick, since when the fuck is that no melee weapon ffs.
Oh, and of course you took no further action, considering while I was busy typing a response asking why the hell I had to stop running and what rules I was breaking and thus forced to run in a straight line, one of the enemy cut me down because I was unable to dodge... So I did stop running in a way...


EDIT so if someone dances too much to avoid my arrows during a match, is he delaying the game?

[SHinOCk]

The only real problem i have with archers now beside the laser sighted arrows is just the number of them on the field... I'ts not rare to see a server populated by more than 50% ranged.. Yes i am a 2 hander, i could use a shield or just camp instead of trying to fight when the rounds begin but i enjoy the melee combat in this game... in fact this is probably the only reason why one would play this game since the rest of the mechanics can be found in other games.

Yeah sometimes i am raging but who doesnt!?. Getting owned by a good archer is something i will never cry about but it is another story when 2-3 baddies are just nuking you and finally manage to kill you after the 30th arrow. You could say pole/2 hander are OP but at least if you suck at blocking you will not do anything good for your team vs a bad archer that just spam left click until he gets lucky w/o having to risk his butt in close quarter combat

[Tydeus]

My inability to fight a person at arm's length is my biggest vulnerability, why on earth would I simply let the enemy win? In fact, my kiting people that are so bent on killing me has, on more than one occasion directly influenced a win for my team.  When someone is chasing me, they are not helping to gang up on one of my fellow teammates.

Those are my feelings anyway.  Should I assume that you find no value in archers that kite?

Telling an archer not to run from melee is like telling a melee to stop trying to avoid arrows. It's absolutely retarded and anyone with this mindset has some problems. What're you so egotistical that you can't look at things from an archer's perspective or do you just not care to? Would you really refute the fact that an archer is more useful if he doesn't fight in melee? I'd question how useful he is as an archer if he chooses melee as well.

[Dasty]

I am most certainly a running archer.  I switch between a warbow and a longbow, and I always carry two quivers, so I'm not left with a lot of options in terms of defending myself at arm's length.  Not surprisingly, I disagree strongly that running or kiting is the sign of an archer that isn't willing to die fighting.  When I run, it is because if I want to fight, I must run.  Without a melee weapon, I get the vast majority of my kills from arrow shots from only a few feet away from my enemy.  I don't see how an archer kiting is any different than a melee person constantly moving around their opponent to gain positioning advantage.  My inability to fight a person at arm's length is my biggest vulnerability, why on earth would I simply let the enemy win?  I wouldn't call dying needlessly a contribution to my team.  In fact, my kiting people that are so bent on killing me has, on more than one occasion directly influenced a win for my team.  When someone is chasing me, they are not helping to gang up on one of my fellow teammates.

That said, I do find it mind-numbingly frustrating when anyone (archer or not) runs away from combat in an obvious-loss scenario just to avoid death.  If I have teammates up and the ability to run away, I will attempt to do so 100% of the time.  The moment my last teammate drops, I make a decision about whether I can win the round or not (which is usually a no), and I stop running and get what's coming to me.

Those are my feelings anyway.  Should I assume that you find no value in archers that kite?

I kite all the time on my archer but my definition of kiting might be different than yours. When I kite, I usually start dong so when I notice a single enemy charging towards me from 30+ feet away. At this moment I start running towards my teams main mob as I usually am standing off to the the right or left of the blob around 20 or so feet away. This helps me shoot at the angles that are most beneficial and lead to the least team damage. Now I usually move towards my team while jumping and shooting at the charging enemy the entire time. There is never a moment where I am not drawing or shooting my bow. This type of movement is slower but I can usually land a shot or two to slow him down. Upon reaching my team if the charger is still going after me I will pull out my weapon and proceed to block repeatedly until a teammate steps in and gains aggro. At this point I will attempt to help my team mate by bashing the enemy when there is an opening.

However, like you said in your situation, you cannot carry a single slot melee weapon due to using larger bows. I advise using a zero slot hammer or something zero slot that has the ability to manual block. Now for you at the point when the team mate grabs aggro from the charger I would move to the other side of the mob and setup for shooting there. I have been highly successful with this tactic and this is not what I meant by running.

A running archer typically starts way the hell away from the mob and shoots from a distance. When they notice a charging person they typically stand still or move slowly backwards while trying to shoot him. When the charger gets within ten feet or so the archer will then take off in usually the opposite direction of the charger. They will sheathe their bow and run until they have roughly 40-50 feet of room from the charger. They will then pull out the bow and repeat the process until they are the last left alive or kill the charging opponent.

That strategy is not what I would call kiting as you are not actively trying to shoot the charger while moving away.

[Dasty]

EDIT so if someone dances too much to avoid my arrows during a match, is he delaying the game?

If he is the last one left and is not moving towards you at all, yes.

[Tears of Destiny]

If he is the last one left and is not moving towards you at all, yes.

Right, but if an archer who is avoiding melee who is not the last one remaining then it was considered delaying the game.

Gotcha.

Thank you for the Rules Clarification for those servers.

[Governor]

Telling an archer not to run from melee is like telling a melee to stop trying to avoid arrows. It's absolutely retarded and anyone with this mindset has some problems. What're you so egotistical that you can't look at things from an archer's perspective or do you just not care to? Would you really refute the fact that an archer is more useful if he doesn't fight in melee? I'd question how useful he is as an archer if he chooses melee as well.

I think you might be misunderstanding what I said, or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you're saying here.  I am an archer, so I have no problem looking at it from the point of view of an archer   Also, I support archers running in many circumstances.

[ManOfWar]

I think you might be misunderstanding what I said, or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you're saying here.  I am an archer, so I have no problem looking at it from the point of view of an archer   Also, I support archers running in many circumstances.

I believe he is talking to dasty

[duurrr]

I hate archers because of the meta-game shift from heavy Agility melee to heavy STR no agility.
An agility based melee has no chance anymore in a duel agaisnt another melee'er (since STR is so OP right now for melee).

Therefor every infantry is heavy str -> no athletics. Archer can just run away from melee np now and its annoying as fuck.

This has caused more str infantry to do cav/infantry hybrids (with 12~agi) and now cav map are fucking unplayable as a melee'r with 5000 archers and 5000 cavs

On top of that there's nothing you can do agaisn't 2 archers as a melee, you can outplay 2+ melee'r but if there's a chance you get ranged youre fucked, so fuck all of you.

-kekeeke