cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Spa_geh_tea on June 28, 2011, 03:10:55 am

Title: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 28, 2011, 03:10:55 am
http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_spot_poleaxe11_s.jpg (http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_spot_poleaxe11_s.jpg)
From the Royal Armouries, Leeds (VII.1510)
First half of 16th century. Head length: 11 1/4 inches. Overall length: 93 1/5 inches. Weight: 7 pounds, 11 ounces
(click to show/hide)

Oak rod:
.025X.025X1.5 m
density 980 kg/m^3

FBD:

------------(COM of Oak)--------------(Metal Mass)
                       8.55N                            25.64N

sum(Forces)=34.19N approx 7lb 11 ounces

COM of entire object= [8.55(.75m)+25.64(1.5m)]/34.19
New Com: 1.312m from left end

That is only 2 decimeters from the far right end.....clearly an unbalanced weapon and the near equivalent of swinging a six lb sledge hammer. Not the fastest thing in the world to swing. It can be argued that their is more oak material on the left end than the right. But this could require a loss of mass towards the metal end which would decrease the amount of stress the oak can handle.

Assumptions: The value given for the total weight of bec is assumed to include a 1.5m oak rod. The oak used is of extremely high density oak. The rod is uniform in cross sectional area. The metal is a single point of concentrated mass at the end of 1.5m(True COM could not be determined due to lack of information). I have based most of my assumptions in favor of the balancing the weapon in exception of adjusted oak mass.

Note: Check my work if you want I am prone to errors, however if you do not understand the physics behind static rigid bodies then your input is invalid. I would strongly suggest someone counterpoint this with further analysis and data. Keep in mind I will model this in CatiaV5 in order to check your analysis during my lunch periods. Yes, I'm a nerd.....but a happy one :D If anyone wants me to analyze other in-game weapons to determine the validity of their factors let me know through ms.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 28, 2011, 04:32:34 am
Yeah, it is held in the middle so it is balanced. If you gripped it near the end? Oh god yes it would be unbalanced.

Note: I am in favor of the bec losing one speed for internal pole balance. That is it though, really.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Seawied on June 28, 2011, 06:14:52 am
I have a masterworked bec. Losing 1 speed wouldn't be the worst thing to happen in terms of balance.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Thucydides on June 28, 2011, 07:00:23 am
hell the GLA lost 2 speedpoints and its still a monster
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Brutal on June 28, 2011, 08:23:46 am
Or make it unbalanced with 150 length like suggested by OP, could be fun too  :mrgreen:

edit: 93 inch = 236 cm, the bec the new anticav weapon ?
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Wookimonsta on June 28, 2011, 03:28:09 pm
PHYSICS! IT MUST BE TRUE!
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Shik on June 28, 2011, 04:06:51 pm
I see... you take a 7 pound, 237cm long weapon, change the length to 150cm, and keep the weight exactly the same. Perfect logic here.
hint: your revelation that the balance is akin to that 'of a sledgehammer' is only because you assumed the weight to be concentrated at the very tip. Look at the picture - it's obvious that much of the weight comes from the metal strips that rivet the head to the pole. This means that the metal mass is most certainly NOT concentrated at a single point, and that your center of mass is grossly incorrect. Suggestion: Try harder, maybe you'll get more than a C in your high school physics class.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Wookimonsta on June 28, 2011, 04:19:23 pm
hur hur, thats what she said!
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Siiem on June 28, 2011, 07:35:25 pm
I see... you take a 7 pound, 237cm long weapon, change the length to 150cm, and keep the weight exactly the same. Perfect logic here.
hint: your revelation that the balance is akin to that 'of a sledgehammer' is only because you assumed the weight to be concentrated at the very tip. Look at the picture - it's obvious that much of the weight comes from the metal strips that rivet the head to the pole. This means that the metal mass is most certainly NOT concentrated at a single point, and that your center of mass is grossly incorrect. Suggestion: Try harder, maybe you'll get more than a C in your high school physics class.

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Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Seawied on June 28, 2011, 08:09:05 pm
I see... you take a 7 pound, 237cm long weapon, change the length to 150cm, and keep the weight exactly the same. Perfect logic here.
hint: your revelation that the balance is akin to that 'of a sledgehammer' is only because you assumed the weight to be concentrated at the very tip. Look at the picture - it's obvious that much of the weight comes from the metal strips that rivet the head to the pole. This means that the metal mass is most certainly NOT concentrated at a single point, and that your center of mass is grossly incorrect. Suggestion: Try harder, maybe you'll get more than a C in your high school physics class.

Alright, its one thing to reject his idea. That's fine in itself. But being a complete dick about it? Now you're just being an ass Shik.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Team_Jacob on June 28, 2011, 08:21:55 pm
I see... you take a 7 pound, 237cm long weapon, change the length to 150cm, and keep the weight exactly the same. Perfect logic here.
hint: your revelation that the balance is akin to that 'of a sledgehammer' is only because you assumed the weight to be concentrated at the very tip. Look at the picture - it's obvious that much of the weight comes from the metal strips that rivet the head to the pole. This means that the metal mass is most certainly NOT concentrated at a single point, and that your center of mass is grossly incorrect. Suggestion: Try harder, maybe you'll get more than a C in your high school physics class.

I ran it through ANSYS because I don't like your tone and it doesn't change the center of mass that much because most of the metal weight is in the axe/beak/hammer area. Sure, he messed up the conversion from in. to cm (2.54 cm/in.), but his post is at least well thought out and has some effort put into it. It befuddles me that you would waste time to berate someone that is clearly putting effort into their posts, yet you sit idle at your computer while people like Gorath take shits on their keyboards to make posts.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: ManOfWar on June 28, 2011, 08:27:38 pm
This is why you dont bother posting stuff on science and such.

There is always someone who knows more
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Penitent on June 28, 2011, 08:36:04 pm
Unfortunately, no one seems to care about realism...just balance.  Even if it turns this medieval combat sim into a fantasy game. :)

I think someone should make a realism mod and we can go from there. :)
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Laufknoten on June 28, 2011, 10:52:47 pm
Unfortunately, no one seems to care about realism...just balance.  Even if it turns this medieval combat sim into a fantasy game. :)
You really think cRPG is something like a "medieval combat simulator"?  :rolleyes: It's more like a medieval themed fighting game, but it has nothing to do with a simulator.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Shik on June 28, 2011, 11:08:07 pm
Alright, its one thing to reject his idea. That's fine in itself. But being a complete dick about it? Now you're just being an ass Shik.
Not even rejecting his idea, rejecting his argument. It's one thing to say that a weapon is too fast, or overpowered or what not, it's another thing to come up with some deliberately skewed bullshit pseudoscience as an argument to support an idea. If the bec de corbin is too fast or powerful in comparison to other weapons, then just say so, and give reasoning based on internal game balance.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Lichen on June 29, 2011, 12:01:49 am
Unfortunately, no one seems to care about realism...just balance.  Even if it turns this medieval combat sim into a fantasy game. :)

I think someone should make a realism mod and we can go from there. :)
I actually prefer realistic games myself but I enjoy different games either way realistic or not. I would totally play a 'realism' version of crpg if made where realism is the goal and balance is not (interestingly though realism when done right very often translates into a 'natural' balance). It could be done so everything is on the same database and all that so the community isn't 'split' and then people can play on realism servers and normal depending on what they feel like. It would definitely reduce whiners on realism servers since balance would not be an issue and would attract more hardcore players who enjoy more 'sim' type gameplay and trying to overcome 'unfair' advantages etc. I'd totally play it. It would probably be ALL I played since it's what I prefer.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 29, 2011, 12:10:29 am
Where is everyone getting the weapon length from, I just guessed it to be 1.5m long. Using ingame proportions and comparing it to my body. Course its slightly off, but it was a guess because I do not know what the ingame length values refer too. As for folks berating what I did, I clearly stated all my assumptions. If you don't like my assumptions then let me know and I would of been happy to reconsider them. In retro-spec I did not include the "weilder" of the weapon and their hand position. So, that would definitely change the game.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Dezilagel on June 29, 2011, 12:13:28 am
Why is this even discussed? And why in this forum? O.o

Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 29, 2011, 12:15:12 am
Its a game balance suggestion based on some calculations.

PS. Shik........read my assumptions, clearly you did not.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 29, 2011, 01:02:53 am
So, taking everyones suggestions in I've made the new following assumptions, please read them before you make your comments.

Assumptions: The value given for the total weight of bec is assumed to include a 1.5m oak rod. The oak used is of extremely high density oak. The rod is uniform in cross sectional area. The metal is a single point of concentrated mass at 1.3m(at the position of determined COM from first calculation. I also assume(although seems incorrectly) that the wielders hand position is at the center of the rod, this was determined by looking at the top hand position ingame. So I have generated new FBD as shown.

Oak rod:
.025X.025X1.5 m
density 980 kg/m^3

FBD:

COM-----------(COM at half of the Oak)--------------(Metal Mass)-----
                       4.275N                                                25.64N

sum(Forces)=29.915N

COM of entire object= [4.275(.375m)+25.64(.55m)]/29.915
New Com of half the shaft: .52m from left end

New Com of total shaft: 1.27m from the left end

Using the given assumptions it was found that the COM is located .52m from the center. The weapon can still be considered unbalanced due to these specifications.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Shik on June 29, 2011, 01:06:16 am
The question is why the metal head is considered to be a point mass, when the image shows it to be distributed a good length along the haft.
edited back for thread continuity
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 29, 2011, 01:08:23 am
Because I do not know the distribution or dimension of that metal, as stated in the assumptions.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Seawied on June 29, 2011, 01:13:49 am
Because I do not know the distribution or dimension of that metal, as stated in the assumptions.

I think it would really help your argument if you were able to dig up a historical bec de corbin's head weight. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you might be able to find a preserved one documented somewhere.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 29, 2011, 01:15:24 am
Yeah, if someone could find me better information that would help a ton.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Shik on June 29, 2011, 01:35:07 am
The problem with the weight in the original post (7lb 11 oz) was that it came from a weapon much longer than the in game weapon. I see that in the second version of the calculations you've revised it to 6.6 pounds, which I assume comes from the in game value of 2.8kg. Of course the in game value is unreliable as far as realistic weight goes, as it is adjusted both roughly on realistic values and game balance. This usually results in the weight on weapons in game being inflated slightly beyond their correct weights.

As far as correct weights go, the crow's beak and other similar pick type weapons were indeed quite heavy at the end. I think an accurate estimate of the weight would be perhaps 5 pounds, give or take a little bit. The myarmoury page you linked shows a fairly short version of a similar weapon as 105centimeters and 3 pounds 8 inches. It notes that it is possibly shortened, which if it is, it is the wood being removed from the base of the weapon, meaning that a full length version would still have a fairly close weight. The in game model of the bec is roughly 165 centimeters long, so I think 5 pounds should be a reasonable estimate.

Another note about balance: the bec is not a "balanced" weapon by any means in real life, but that does not necessarily translate to having poor handling characteristics. Poleaxes are actually quite wieldy weapons. In any case, considering that the length of the weapon is only in the 120s, it seems reasonable to have the weapon with the balanced tag to me.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Patricia on June 29, 2011, 01:39:05 am
This is why you dont bother posting stuff on science and such.

There is always someone who knows more

You know ALL about that, don't you.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 29, 2011, 01:47:52 am
If you refer to the shitty free body diagram that I left. It shows that I only considered half of the length instead of the full length of the weapon, which explains the drop in weight. This was in order to consider the weilder having full "control" of half the shaft.

I do agree in comparison to other ingame weapons, this one would be more balanced. The reason I am attacking the bec first is because it will recieve the most attention. My hidden agenda is to make nearly all weapons unbalanced, with a few exceptions. The purpose of this is actually to enhance game play, forcing people to be more careful about their attacks because they no longer be able to instantly block after swings or fient at rediculous moments of motion.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Team_Jacob on June 29, 2011, 04:18:41 am
The problem with the weight in the original post (7lb 11 oz) was that it came from a weapon much longer than the in game weapon. I see that in the second version of the calculations you've revised it to 6.6 pounds, which I assume comes from the in game value of 2.8kg. Of course the in game value is unreliable as far as realistic weight goes, as it is adjusted both roughly on realistic values and game balance. This usually results in the weight on weapons in game being inflated slightly beyond their correct weights.

As far as correct weights go, the crow's beak and other similar pick type weapons were indeed quite heavy at the end. I think an accurate estimate of the weight would be perhaps 5 pounds, give or take a little bit. The myarmoury page you linked shows a fairly short version of a similar weapon as 105centimeters and 3 pounds 8 inches. It notes that it is possibly shortened, which if it is, it is the wood being removed from the base of the weapon, meaning that a full length version would still have a fairly close weight. The in game model of the bec is roughly 165 centimeters long, so I think 5 pounds should be a reasonable estimate.

Another note about balance: the bec is not a "balanced" weapon by any means in real life, but that does not necessarily translate to having poor handling characteristics. Poleaxes are actually quite wieldy weapons. In any case, considering that the length of the weapon is only in the 120s, it seems reasonable to have the weapon with the balanced tag to me.

As I said, I put a similar model into Ansys and went with and without the supports having mass, the overall center didn't change enough to be noteworthy. Also, poleaxes may be "quick" in the sense that you can move them around quickly, but to actually deliver a blow that will hurt someone in heavy armor, it takes more than a fast swipe to do so.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Paul on June 29, 2011, 10:04:59 am
The balanced attribute we can use in Warband is a boolean, either black or white. We can't work with different shades of grey here for now. This might change with WSE but for now it's that way. The wide polearm grip, very short length(for a polearm) and relatively low weight made us consider the bec as balanced - no matter where a possible center of mass is. Now one could ask why the polemaces with comparable stats are unbalanced - it's for gameplay reasons.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: v/onMega on June 29, 2011, 01:07:50 pm
Leave the beccy the way it is.

Never ever unbalanced...never.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Farrok on June 30, 2011, 12:46:53 pm
Always this shit about realismus...crpg(and m&b, and warband) is highly unrealistic, its fantasy so why should we "balance" something  this way...

when the bec de corbin gets unbalanced because of "realism" than put most other twohander and polearms, and even some 1hander as unbalanced too...i would like a real realistic crpg mod but currently it would be impossible and it is needed to edit all the stats from all items+ delete some item when you want only items from a short range of time...currently we have weapons which lies around 600 years between oldest and newst weapons...

@Paul: Thx and a Bec or Luzerner Hammer/Fußstreithammer are balanced, more than most of the other polearms and swords ;) i have fought with several weapons in reallife so i have a little bit of experience, though with some understanding of physics you can know it without experience but most people under-/overestimate the things like weight, length, etc.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Seawied on June 30, 2011, 08:06:55 pm
Highly unrealistic? No, that would be Orlando Bloom sliding down stairs on a shield shooting arrows with pinpoint accuracy. Fantasy? Thats more of world of warcraft.


The developers of Warband, and M&B did try to create an enjoyable game that is based off of historical weapons. Originally, Taleworlds wanted to make Mount and Blade a "Medieval Combat Simulator." Technology, the engine, and various other things limit them, so its by no means what they originally strived to go out and do, but the end product isn't what I would consider to be a "Fantasy" genre game.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Soldier_of_God on July 05, 2011, 07:37:08 pm
Just nerf the bec already! its easily the most OP polearm out there, and it certainly needs one. i really don't understand why center of mass and density was even meantioned in light of the fact the bec is the most overused, spammy polearm besides the iron staff out there.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: rustyspoon on July 05, 2011, 07:54:51 pm
Just nerf the bec already! its easily the most OP polearm out there, and it certainly needs one. i really don't understand why center of mass and density was even meantioned in light of the fact the bec is the most overused, spammy polearm besides the iron staff out there.

I don't think it's a problem with the bec. I think it's more of a problem with pierce damage. It sucks when any schmuck with a bec can come by and 2 hit you. Wasn't there talk previously about some armor changes that would help mitigate this problem?
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Soldier_of_God on July 05, 2011, 08:23:21 pm
I don't think it's a problem with the bec. I think it's more of a problem with pierce damage. It sucks when any schmuck with a bec can come by and 2 hit you. Wasn't there talk previously about some armor changes that would help mitigate this problem?

whatever you want to pin it on, bec is overpowered. there are many reasons why i personally dont like the bec, but i think the devs need to put this on their list of weapons under review. i dont know how many people have posted about this weapon, but its quite a high number.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Seawied on July 05, 2011, 08:53:44 pm
Just nerf the bec already! its easily the most OP polearm out there, and it certainly needs one. i really don't understand why center of mass and density was even meantioned in light of the fact the bec is the most overused, spammy polearm besides the iron staff out there.

Overused? Yes. Its a tin-can opener and works very well at that.

Spammy? No. You cannot out-spam with this weapon. There are many many other polearms and 2h and 1h which are much, much faster.

OP? Its strong, but not gamebreaking by any means.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: rustyspoon on July 05, 2011, 09:15:00 pm
Yeah, the bec isn't OP at all. It's got decent speed, but it's short. Very short. Most every 2H out ranges the thing. Polearm stun doesn't count 'cause that's a problem with EVERY polearm and won't get fixed until WSE.

Overall any of the poleaxes are better than the bec.

Hell, remember when the bec did blunt damage with knockdown? Currently it's WAY the hell better than that. Really, I think pierce damage in general just needs to be looked at.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Vibe on July 05, 2011, 09:53:18 pm
Leave bec alone!

It lacks so much in range, there's no reason to call it OP.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Seawied on July 06, 2011, 08:52:23 am
Leave bec alone!

It lacks so much in range, there's no reason to call it OP.

It really does. Most people who complain about the bec don't realize its limitations. The reach is pretty atrocious. Its so atrocious that you can literally get out-reached by 1h swords.

It might need a price increase, because if you compare it to 2h sword prices, it is quite inexpensive. Stat wise though, it is not a broken weapon.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Vibe on July 06, 2011, 08:59:07 am
The reach is pretty atrocious. Its so atrocious that you can literally get out-reached by 1h swords.

I believe I outreached a bec with my NCS just the other day.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Cyclopsided on July 06, 2011, 09:11:26 am
I believe I outreached a bec with my NCS just the other day.
Most 1handers right swing outreach it. It is easy to do with a long espada or NCS
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: justme on July 06, 2011, 09:11:45 am
if the bec is so OP, why nobody use it? i cant remember that i saw someone these days
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on July 06, 2011, 09:37:03 am
I don't see any problem with the Bec. That's all.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Vibe on July 06, 2011, 09:45:18 am
if the bec is so OP, why nobody use it? i cant remember that i saw someone these days

It's mostly used in dueling, for battle it's just too short.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 06, 2011, 04:25:15 pm
if the bec is so OP, why nobody use it? i cant remember that i saw someone these days

NA servers -_-
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Tydeus on July 06, 2011, 04:54:44 pm
It's mostly used in dueling, for battle it's just too short.
I'd argue that it is an exceptionally well rounded weapon. The great maul is short but with coordination and the right lineup, it can be one of the best weapons to use in certain situations. The bec may be rather short but it is devastating to plate infantry. The bec allows you to use an athletics build 18/21 while maintaining the same damage or better against high armor as all of the other top tier weapons, at 27/12.

Also, basically 1/5 of 2h/pole on NA is a bec user. Very very few people in NA use a flamberge yet in the huge multi clan eu tourney, several people used them.
Title: Re: The bec de corbin, balanced....fast?
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 06, 2011, 04:58:44 pm
I'd argue that it is an exceptionally well rounded weapon. The great maul is short but with coordination and the right lineup, it can be one of the best weapons to use in certain situations. The bec may be rather short but it is devastating to plate infantry. The bec allows you to use an athletics build 18/21 while maintaining the same damage or better against high armor as all of the other top tier weapons, at 27/12.

Also, basically 1/5 of 2h/pole on NA is a bec user. Very very few people in NA use a flamberge yet in the huge multi clan eu tourney, several people used them.

Not even an exageration, though in cav heavy maps this can temporarily skew in a lower figure as everyone and their mother takes a long spear, though just do what Tydeus does and take both a Bec and a Long Spear :S