cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Magikarp on June 19, 2011, 03:12:35 pm

Title: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Magikarp on June 19, 2011, 03:12:35 pm
After another week of testing:

Longbow is the new number 1 bow, and a masterwork one with a 9 pd build and 149 wpf is gonna hurt, a lot.

The Arbalest is ridiculously accurate for the damage that it does, I can't imagine how accurate it is at MW level.
Dave with 168 wpf almost onehit me when I wore a Lordly Kuyak+plate mittens.

The servers I've been on lately are all infested with Longbows and Arbalests. Ranged spam has returned and its getting ridiculous, the team with the most longbows and arbalests just wins most of the time.

I suggest both get a damage nerf, I think xbow accuracy is fine if damage is lowered.

~Fishy
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Malaclypse on June 20, 2011, 12:45:28 am
I know a few dudes who still choose Warbow over Longbow to heirloom, and I also feel that there is a reasonable trade-off between damage, firing speed, and accuracy. Maybe it's not just stats that made them choose Warbow over Longbow, also :|

I would be down for a new bow being added with Warbows old skin, or just giving the old skin back.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Native_ATS on June 20, 2011, 12:52:22 am
Longbow is the new number 1 bow, and a masterwork one with a 9 pd build and 149 wpf is gonna hurt, a lot. The Warbow however does crap damage and everyone is dumping it.

I suggest these bows get tweaked so the Warbow is finally a good choice, the Strongbow and especially the Longbow are simply better atm!

~Fishy
no, warbow is fine. If you go 9pd 149wpf the war bow pwns all other bows
long is great vs tin cans, shit vs range and agi builds
warbow is good vs all do to rate of fire and damg
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on June 22, 2011, 11:55:20 pm
my only gripe with it it that it two shots even with heavy armor and if in the legs! op or not? dunno but i dont find it fun! (+ the ninja jump round preparing the shot in the air...)
makes it a bit unfair compared to my dedicated xbower that deals as much damage with an arbalest wich takes far longer to reload, cant shoot as far and cant move while reloading.

well im off before i get all the archer rage in meh face saying I'm QQing
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 22, 2011, 11:57:47 pm
makes it a bit unfair compared to my dedicated xbower that deals as much damage with an arbalest wich takes far longer to reload, cant shoot as far and cant move while reloading.

well im off before i get all the archer rage in meh face saying I'm QQing

Nice, let us compare the wpf I put into my bow, then the wpf you put into your crossbow. the same? Cool...
How many skill points do I put into stuff like Power Draw, and how much do you... oh wait...  :mrgreen:

Everything has drawbacks and advantages.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on June 23, 2011, 12:36:27 am
I'm a dedicated xbower, so  like you pointed out we must have same wpf (mine is at 151)

yea your right for a hybrib, no points to be invested! but when it comes to firing, you more efficient with that longbow then me with my arbalest. and iv hardly got any better fighting capacities then you (not talking about skill)!
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: kukufarikki on June 23, 2011, 12:40:51 am
Nice, let us compare the wpf I put into my bow, then the wpf you put into your crossbow. the same? Cool...
How many skill points do I put into stuff like Power Draw, and how much do you... oh wait...  :mrgreen:

Everything has drawbacks and advantages.

Even dedicated crossbowmen will be doing worse than a dedicated longbowman. Like you said, we don't have any skill points to assign, and if we did we would be one-shotting everything with our Arbalests. After trying out a dedicated archer skip to 30 character with a longbow, that thing needs to be nerfed to non-existance, as it can fire at least three arrows in the time it takes to reload an Arbalest and does as much damage if you are dedicated, and only has half the repair cost.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Lichen on June 23, 2011, 12:59:59 am
no, warbow is fine. If you go 9pd 149wpf the war bow pwns all other bows
long is great vs tin cans, shit vs range and agi builds
warbow is good vs all do to rate of fire and damg
I recently learned that using the longbow vs distant targets is pretty much a bad idea (though my wpf isn't that high). I think I went through most my arrows without even getting one hit. The warbow on the other hand is very good against distant targets.

my only gripe with it it that it two shots even with heavy armor and if in the legs! op or not? dunno but i dont find it fun! (+ the ninja jump round preparing the shot in the air...)
makes it a bit unfair compared to my dedicated xbower that deals as much damage with an arbalest wich takes far longer to reload, cant shoot as far and cant move while reloading.

well im off before i get all the archer rage in meh face saying I'm QQing
Archer probably had high powerdraw.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on June 23, 2011, 01:22:24 am
I recently learned that using the longbow vs distant targets is pretty much a bad idea (though my wpf isn't that high). I think I went through most my arrows without even getting one hit. The warbow on the other hand is very good against distant targets.


isnt longbow suppose to be a long range weapon?

oh yea people in lordly milanese plate get two shot by longbow  :rolleyes:

Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Lichen on June 23, 2011, 01:36:04 am
isnt longbow suppose to be a long range weapon?

oh yea people in lordly milanese plate get two shot by longbow  :rolleyes:
IDK I'm fine with how accurate (or inaccurate) the longbow is. I know realism is not the ultimate thing when it comes to balancing a game but IRL they were used in 'volley' fire and I don't think they were super accurate. Powerful though? Yes. However 2 shots taking out a lordly milanese wearer does seem pretty ridiculous. I agree. If there was a way to have plate armors basically be invulnerable to archers it would be something to try. I know a lot of archers wouldn't like that much realism though.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Magikarp on June 23, 2011, 01:54:50 pm
Come on, it's pretty obvious, all archers are moving unto the longbow, mostly because it's pretty damn accurate at the Masterwork stage.
I could imagine 2 fixes: Buff Warbow damage and nerf Longbow damage or remove accuracy bonus from looms.

And the new textures suck, please bring back the old ones, they looked much better!
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Bulzur on June 23, 2011, 03:10:09 pm
Actually, archers with longbow tend to get owned by archers with warbow, providing the same skill.
So yes, longbow is a tincan killer (well, more than the other cutting bows, that's sure) but the warbow is FAR from needing a buff.

For all xbows user whining about archery :
(click to show/hide)

Edit : Gurnisson, what armor are you wearing ? Poophammer told me that at 181 wpf, naked, it takes less than 1sec for his MW arbalest. :S Was probably exagerated and it's less than 3sec, wich is still perfectly fine imo.^^
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 23, 2011, 03:57:53 pm
Actually, archers with longbow tend to get owned by archers with warbow, providing the same skill.
So yes, longbow is a tincan killer (well, more than the other cutting bows, that's sure) but the warbow is FAR from needing a buff.

For all xbows user whining about archery :
(click to show/hide)

What he said. A build that is entirely focused on range will do very well with a crossbow as it will with a bow. Most of the people I see who complain about "xbows unfair lag behind" have "wasted" points in powerstrike and other rubbish things that us archers don't have the points to spend on. Dark Karma does perfectly fine with the Arbalest, so can you...

As for the Longbow being better then the Warbow, I do agree with a lot of people that right now the Warbow could use a little more attention, either add a point more of damage to the Warbow or subtract one from the Longbow, something to make it a bit more appealing to use the more expensive "best" bow. I still prefer the Warbow though because it can actually defend itself against even Strongbow users, where as I don't have to try particularly hard to defeat or chase off a Longbow user in an archer duel.

Right now the Warbow offers an interesting compromise between the Strongbow and the Longbow, but it does need to be bolstered somehow (with either a very small nerf to LB or a very small buff to WB) as it does lag a little behind in my eyes.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Gurnisson on June 23, 2011, 10:16:44 pm
Gurnisson and Poophammer are doing perfectly fine with their absolute accuracy at even long range, and less than 1sec reload speed at 160 and more wpf.

Crossbowmen are strong and deadly accurate at high wpf investment, so you've got a fair point, but the reload speed you're talking about is so way off. I'm standing with my ass up in the air for at least three seconds when reloading a MW Arbalest with 180 wpf, when archers can reload their bow on the move. Archers work in the open, crossbowmen don't. Archers and crossbowmen have different playstyles, different positive and negative things comes with them.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Duerkos on June 24, 2011, 06:59:52 pm
In my clan, Hanzo uses the warbow and he sometimes top the scores. He excels at aiming from a long distance, and at close distance he usually does headshots.

If I end on the other team usually Hanzo slaughters me and my Long Bow.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Rogue_Eagle on June 26, 2011, 01:17:15 pm
longbow may be a tin can killer, but whenever I'm up against a longbowman with my strongbow I'm pretty confident.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: [ptx] on June 26, 2011, 01:26:19 pm
Because longbow takes a lot of skill, something that most of these longbowmen don't have. So they're food for every other archer.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: kukufarikki on June 26, 2011, 04:43:47 pm
Because longbow takes a lot of skill, something that most of these longbowmen don't have. So they're food for every other archer.

About as much skill as a crossbow, but the longbow has better aim.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Dezilagel on June 26, 2011, 05:29:41 pm
About as much skill as a crossbow, but the longbow has better aim.

lol.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: [ptx] on June 27, 2011, 01:26:52 am
About as much skill as a crossbow, but the longbow has better aim.
LMAO. Wait, are you trolling me or are you really being that wrong not on purpose?
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 27, 2011, 01:54:12 am
LMAO. Wait, are you trolling me or are you really being that wrong not on purpose?


Miight have something to do with those Chaos fellows wearing a crapton of armor compared to what we archers use, and thus get clubbed senselessly with the wpf restrictions.

At the practical limit of 7 WM at 30th level, the longbow does not have as tight of a reticule as an Arb' does, but if I take as much armor with my Arb' character as most people do then yeah the Longbow has a better reticule.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Siiem on June 27, 2011, 02:00:10 am
Longbow is the bow for archers that know how to aim abit and not just point & click machegunnin' let it keep its power.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: kukufarikki on June 27, 2011, 06:07:13 am
LMAO. Wait, are you trolling me or are you really being that wrong not on purpose?

I use an arbalest on my main with 160 wpf, and I tried out a skip to 30 dedicated archer with a longbow at 160 wpf, with the same amount of armor that I use on my xbow, and the longbow reticle was better. The longbow can fire faster obviously, and with enough power draw can do the same amount of damage. So no, I'm not trolling.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Bulzur on June 27, 2011, 10:12:48 pm
I use an arbalest on my main with 160 wpf, and I tried out a skip to 30 dedicated archer with a longbow at 160 wpf, with the same amount of armor that I use on my xbow, and the longbow reticle was better. The longbow can fire faster obviously, and with enough power draw can do the same amount of damage. So no, I'm not trolling.

Yes ! + 1 ! Totally true ! With 15 PD it deals the same damage ! Nerf longbow !
No, i'm definitely not trolling.



Edit : Why would people be confused at my trol argumentative post ?  :(
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 27, 2011, 10:13:55 pm
Each point of PD adds 14%, for anyone confused about the last post...
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: POOPHAMMER on June 30, 2011, 03:37:10 am
Crossbowing got too easy. My reticule was ridiculous with a MW Arbalest. Here is my end all crossbowman build. Play naked, have fun. Archers cant do shit about it. When they stop to take aim at you, just let go of the mouse. I am also selling my MW arbalest if anyone wants it. I am going longbow/warbow now.

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 15
Agility: 27
Hit points: 50
Skills to attributes: 14
Ironflesh: 0
Power Strike: 0
Shield: 0
Athletics: 8
Riding: 0
Horse Archery: 0
Power Draw: 0
Power Throw: 0
Weapon Master: 9
One Handed: 1
Two Handed: 1
Polearm: 1
Archery: 1
Crossbow: 181
Throwing: 1
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Cup1d on June 30, 2011, 03:26:25 pm
Nerf Longbow,
Buff Warbow!
(And give back old textures!)

Yes, Please Shik, give us back old textures...
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: polkafranzi on June 30, 2011, 03:49:19 pm
Warbow had it's time (approx 9months), now time for Longbow to shine for a bit longer.  Just switch them on site and everybody will be happy.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: POOPHAMMER on July 03, 2011, 05:20:32 pm
Here you go! Old bow textures!

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,6183.msg133239.html#msg133239
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Magikarp on July 07, 2011, 05:58:46 pm
Thanks POOP, thats a nice link.

After a week of testing, I found out that my xbow character was already way too powerful at lvl 22. This guy has a closed crosshair and deals a heck of a lot damage per bolt. As I edited in the first post, DaveUKR can onehit people with his MW Arbalest. A lot f xbowmen have suddenly appeared in crpg, ranged spam is back.

The longbow is no different, it's like a non loomed arbalest with a semi-auto feature, not to mention that running and jumpshooting is still ingame.

I say nerf the damage on both weapons, or nerf damage on the xbows and accuracy on the longbow.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Gorath on July 08, 2011, 07:38:07 am

Miight have something to do with those Chaos fellows wearing a crapton of armor compared to what we archers use, and thus get clubbed senselessly with the wpf restrictions.

At the practical limit of 7 WM at 30th level, the longbow does not have as tight of a reticule as an Arb' does, but if I take as much armor with my Arb' character as most people do then yeah the Longbow has a better reticule.

Longbow can move while reloading, allowing it to dodge and thus requiring less to no armor.  The Arb' must stand still for 2-3 seconds while reloading, as a perfect stationary target for ranged without the ability to dodge unless cancelling the reload.  It requires armor.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Native_ATS on July 08, 2011, 07:40:16 am
After another week of testing:

Longbow is the new number 1 bow, and a masterwork one with a 9 pd build and 149 wpf is gonna hurt, a lot.

The Arbalest is ridiculously accurate for the damage that it does, I can't imagine how accurate it is at MW level.
Dave with 168 wpf almost onehit me when I wore a Lordly Kuyak+plate mittens.

The servers I've been on lately are all infested with Longbows and Arbalests. Ranged spam has returned and its getting ridiculous, the team with the most longbows and arbalests just wins most of the time.

I suggest both get a damage nerf, I think xbow accuracy is fine if damage is lowered.

~Fishy
fail, u cant get 149wpf and 9pd.
After reading that i didnt even read on, i dont want to read lies
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 07:46:18 am
fail, u cant get 149wpf and 9pd.
After reading that i didnt even read on, i dont want to read lies


Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Strength: 27
Agility: 15
Hit points: 62
Skills to attributes: 14
Athletics: 3
Power Draw: 9
Weapon Master: 5
Archery: 148 (Character builder says margin of error of one or two points)


It is possible.

Native, go back to Melee where you belong and stay out of Range threads  :lol:
Longbow can move while reloading, allowing it to dodge and thus requiring less to no armor.  The Arb' must stand still for 2-3 seconds while reloading, as a perfect stationary target for ranged without the ability to dodge unless cancelling the reload.  It requires armor.
I agree. Regardless, your "required armor" is lowering your wpf thus making my point still stand.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Seawied on July 08, 2011, 07:49:14 am
148 listed, but not effective. PD lowers WPF.


And you realize native is a longbower this gen, and I believe has masterworked his longbow if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 07:50:26 am
148 listed, but not effective. PD lowers WPF.


And you realize native is a longbower this gen, and I believe has masterworked his longbow if I'm not mistaken.

I could have sworn that the Devs already disproved the PD lowering accuracy thing :/
And yes, I do realize it, and I have yet to be impressed. He is a fine fine melee user, but he has yet to grasp the "EZ Mode" of Pew Pew to my satisfaction. C'mone Native it is a point-and-click adventure!


EDIT: Regardless, you can make a build that has it, so the post in question is not "full of lies." Magikarp posted a build that is possible, end of story.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Seawied on July 08, 2011, 08:18:33 am
I could have sworn that the Devs already disproved the PD lowering accuracy thing :/

quite the opposite. They added the wpf penalty per PD point because PD increases accuracy per point. By having the wpf penalty, it not only stops the rail-gunners, but it helps nullify the accuracy boost.
And yes, I do realize it, and I have yet to be impressed. He is a fine fine melee user, but he has yet to grasp the "EZ Mode" of Pew Pew to my satisfaction. C'mone Native it is a point-and-click adventure!

A 1.3 kdr isn't too shabby. Better than your average archer. I get shot in the back by teammate 9 PD archers more than any other type of archer.



::On topic::
I would say out of all the ranged classes, bows need the least rebalancing.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Rumblood on July 08, 2011, 10:12:24 am
I play with a MW Warbow, MW StrongBow, and a Khergit if there is a fast bow HA or Archer on the field that is annoying me. I still don't choose the Longbow over my MW Warbow or Strongbow, and likely would not even if my Longbow were MW too. Only if a ton of tincans were running around very slowly, to give me enough time to draw the string  :P

quite the opposite. They added the wpf penalty per PD point because PD increases accuracy per point. By having the wpf penalty, it not only stops the rail-gunners, but it helps nullify the accuracy boost.
A 1.3 kdr isn't too shabby. Better than your average archer. I get shot in the back by teammate 9 PD archers more than any other type of archer.



::On topic::
I would say out of all the ranged classes, bows need the least rebalancing.

KDR of 1.3 is fairly decent kdr over 100 battles or so. There are times, yes, when GrannPappy will get a 12-3, but just as often he will go 0-5 on the next map  :oops:
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: [ptx] on July 08, 2011, 12:07:30 pm
Longbow can move while reloading, allowing it to dodge and thus requiring less to no armor.  The Arb' must stand still for 2-3 seconds while reloading, as a perfect stationary target for ranged without the ability to dodge unless cancelling the reload.  It requires armor.
Yes, on the rare map that doesn't have even a tree for cover. In all other cases, the crossbowman only ever exposes himself to ranged fire for less than a second to squeeze off his bolt at someone.

Oh, comparing crossbows to bows always leads to good things.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Camaris on July 08, 2011, 12:46:30 pm
They just should stop the possibilty to jumpshoot.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Magikarp on July 08, 2011, 03:08:51 pm
148 listed, but not effective. PD lowers WPF.


And you realize native is a longbower this gen, and I believe has masterworked his longbow if I'm not mistaken.
PD doesnt lower WPF nor does it add accuracy. It used to lower accuracy, but they removed that.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 04:01:16 pm
Yes, on the rare map that doesn't have even a tree for cover. In all other cases, the crossbowman only ever exposes himself to ranged fire for less than a second to squeeze off his bolt at someone.

Oh, comparing crossbows to bows always leads to good things.

How dare you claim that my Apples are not Oranges!
They just should stop the possibilty to jumpshoot.
This will incease the amount of rage-inducing running achers.
PD doesnt lower WPF nor does it add accuracy. It used to lower accuracy, but they removed that.
Regardless, either way the build you were talking about is very possible and "not full of lies" so psh psh psh.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Gorath on July 08, 2011, 05:08:10 pm
Yes, on the rare map that doesn't have even a tree for cover. In all other cases, the crossbowman only ever exposes himself to ranged fire for less than a second to squeeze off his bolt at someone.

Oh, comparing crossbows to bows always leads to good things.

I agree that the comparison between bows and xbows is silly.  Personally I think they're both fine and doing what they're supposed to be doing.

I was merely pointing out WHY xbowers are almost always seen in much heavier armor than archers.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Magikarp on July 08, 2011, 05:14:01 pm
I agree that the comparison between bows and xbows is silly.  Personally I think they're both fine and doing what they're supposed to be doing.

I was merely pointing out WHY xbowers are almost always seen in much heavier armor than archers.
So you call xbows onehitting and longbows twohitting fine?
Come on, it's obviously not intended.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Sultan Eren on July 08, 2011, 05:17:04 pm
I think they should decrease all bows' damages for balance's sake.  Because a skilled longbowmen even can get you in one shot. Doing this is also effects HA's. I think their damage should be decreased. They can both shoot and ride away which is totally OP.

All my old friendcers now start crying about my comment. They would say no it's not that overpowered etc. But everyday people becoming more archers and it's getting more counter strike medieval.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Bulzur on July 08, 2011, 05:21:32 pm
All my old friendcers now start crying about my comment. They would say no it's not that overpowered etc. But everyday people becoming more archers xbows and it's getting more counter strike medieval.

Fixed.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Magikarp on July 08, 2011, 05:22:44 pm
Fixed.I forgot the Longbowmen.
Fixed.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Sultan Eren on July 08, 2011, 05:23:53 pm
It don't matter. Ranged is ranged.

They can decrease arrow and bolt number instead of damage. But there is obivously something to decrease.

My solution both for HA's.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Raki on July 08, 2011, 05:27:11 pm
Oh yes, let's decrease the damage dealt by all bows so archers are completely useless until they can pick up a top-end bow and use it reliably...which usually happens around lvl 30.

I do agree on lowering the damage output on high-end xbows and longbows though, maybe through decreasing the bonuses from looming them, as they're quite big when compared to the bonuses given to melee weapons afaik. Maybe lose one point of damage too, nothing major as the longbow is supposed to shoot through plate.

Also, it sounds to me like people want melee users to become nigh-invulnerable to archer/xbow fire. Heavy armor should have it's downside, no matter what the person using it is up against. 1-2 hitting tin cans might be a bit over the top though...maybe 3 hits would be better, about as many hits as it takes for a balanced 2her to take down your average tin can.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 05:28:50 pm
Fixed.

For all the archers, I have been shot at and hit far more often by a friggin bolt. After I discovered that the bolt will more or less always fly dead-center if you time your release as the reticule starts to close even with just 1wpf, non of my characters use the crossbow anymore out of principle unless they have minimum 100wpf in it. Getting shot from I'm With Stupid is one thing considering he is dedicated crossbow, but getting shot by the entire pleb clan of X because they are all carrying crossbows is another thing entirely.

The bright side of me refusing to use a crossbow though is that I save so much money I either make money hand over fist now with all of my characters, or I can carry significantly better gear then my typical opponent. Still... The Bolt Spam is insane.
It don't matter. Ranged is ranged.

They can decrease arrow and bolt number instead of damage. But there is obivously something to decrease.

My solution both for HA's.
Learn to dodge nubbie!  :lol:
But seriously, the stats recorded by www.nacrpg.net have already proven that the KDRs of melee are significantly higher on average then Range, and that not a single range to date has made it into the top 25 for Battle, Duel or even Siege (And siege is extremely friendly for range to play in). over 20 of the top players are 2 handers and polearms too... something to think about.

No reason to nerf range as a blanket nerf. Melee dominates, as it should, and as of this moment it still dominates.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Sultan Eren on July 08, 2011, 05:36:29 pm
Oh yes, let's decrease the damage dealt by all bows so archers are completely useless until they can pick up a top-end bow and use it reliably...which usually happens around lvl 30.

Quote from: Sultan_Eren
All my old friendcers now start crying about my comment.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Raki on July 08, 2011, 05:41:11 pm
All my old friendcers now start crying about my comment.

Figured I'd beat them to it, I'm mainly a 2her. I just noticed it takes longer to become useful as an archer than when you're playing a melee character/crossbower.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 05:46:45 pm
Repeating myself instead of refuting a valid point.
Melee already has significantly higher stats in Kills as well as KDR, this is proven with the Public stat recorder. Learn to play.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Magikarp on July 08, 2011, 05:49:13 pm
Melee already has significantly higher stats in Kills as well as KDR, this is proven with the Public stat recorder. Learn to play.
Well of course, melee covers a lot of classes, the point is not score though.

The point is, whether or not a class deals damage too easily, atm, crossbows and longbowmen deal way too much damage compared to how much effort is put into it.

And on the score point again, I see both top the boards all the time. Which is highly situational and thus again, an invalid point.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Tears of Destiny on July 08, 2011, 05:56:29 pm
Well of course, melee covers a lot of classes, the point is not score though.

The point is, whether or not a class deals damage too easily, atm, crossbows and longbowmen deal way too much damage compared to how much effort is put into it.
Yes, but Sultan was calling for a blanket nerf to All range which is just pointless and silly. If he was calling for an attack on Longbows then yes I would agree, but asking for a damage nerf on the rest of the range is rediculous. As he wanted to nerf and entire side of the coin, I defended the entire side of that coin.

And on the score point again, I see both top the boards all the time. Which is highly situational and thus again, an invalid point.

http://www.nacrpg.net/serverStats.php?order=KDR&search=no&mode=all&region=NA&page=1

Players can have up days and down days. The total score though does not lie.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Magikarp on July 08, 2011, 06:37:22 pm
Yes, but Sultan was calling for a blanket nerf to All range which is just pointless and silly. If he was calling for an attack on Longbows then yes I would agree, but asking for a damage nerf on the rest of the range is rediculous. As he wanted to nerf and entire side of the coin, I defended the entire side of that coin.

http://www.nacrpg.net/serverStats.php?order=KDR&search=no&mode=all&region=NA&page=1

Players can have up days and down days. The total score though does not lie.
First of all, I agree, there is nothing wrong with the other bows. However, I think if you nerf the arbalest, youd have to nerf xbows across the board to prevent other xbows from becoming much better.

About the kdr thing, yet again, a class that requires more skill should be more rewarding. It's just a fact that melee excels at backstabbing and gangraping.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Lichen on July 08, 2011, 11:03:29 pm
I think they should decrease all bows' damages for balance's sake.  Because a skilled longbowmen even can get you in one shot. Doing this is also effects HA's. I think their damage should be decreased. They can both shoot and ride away which is totally OP.

All my old friendcers now start crying about my comment. They would say no it's not that overpowered etc. But everyday people becoming more archers and it's getting more counter strike medieval.
I don't think ALL bows need reduced damage. Maybe some though. Maybe change longbow damage to cut instead of pierce. I don't agree with the gameplay mechanic of archers being able to defeat tin cans. It's just too silly, unrealistic and ridiculous to me. I think tin cans already have enough things to counter them such as blunt melee weapons and pierce melee weapons. Archers don't also need to 'fill' that role IMO.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow, Buff Warbow! (And give back old textures!)
Post by: Gorath on July 09, 2011, 08:01:29 am
So you call xbows onehitting and longbows twohitting fine?
Come on, it's obviously not intended.

I have NEVER been oneshot by ANY xbow from ANY player EVER unless it was a headshot.  The highest armor I wear is the Rus Scale, but my normal armor nowadays is the lower stat Kuyak armor.  I have been twoshot by both xbows AND bows (more than just the longbow.  Warbow, strong bow and even the Khergit bow) and for the most part I think that's somewhat ok yes.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Seawied on July 09, 2011, 08:52:11 am
I would love your magic awesomeness bubble Gorath, because I get 1 shot on my 7 IF character wearing heraldic mail with surcoat by arbalests. A 7 IF character is anything but squishy.


Xbows are definitely too strong. I disagree with magi on longbows though. I have more of a problem with teammates shooting me in the back with them.


My opinion: Lower damage on xbows globably by about 10%, and add wpf requirement to all xbows except for hunting. the arbalest should require about 108 wpf, heavy should require 72, regular should require 96, light should require 84.

reasoning behind those numbers: all other ranged weapons have a wpf requirement attached to them. Want to use a shitty over-nerfed throwing lance? You currently need a minimum of 78 wpf after the weight malus. Long bows carry a similar requirement, but I don't have the exact number for it. Xbows not only carry no wpf requirement, but they can be used incredibly effectively with 0 wpf in them. No other ranged weapon in the game can make this claim.

The numbers given for the wpf are based off what a reasonable PD or PT requirement would be on any other throwing weapon. Arbalest is simply godly accurate and godly damaging, so its comparable to about a 9 PT throwing lance pre-ubernerf. The heavy crossbow is very effective, but clearly outshined by most other crossbows due to its 2 slot drawback, so it gets a very minimal 72 wpf, or the equivalent of  5-6 PT. The regular xbow is only usuable on foot, but only takes up a single slot, so it gets a reasonable 96 wpf (easily obtainable by hybrids.) Light has the benefit of being used on horseback, but lacks high damage, so its in-between a heavy xbow and a regular xbow.



the tl;dr version: All other ranged weapons require a wpf investment, making xbows unbalanced. Xbows are easily on par, if not stronger than bows, but carry little to no drawbacks. Unless xbows gain any sort of real requirement, eventually the vast majority of all players will have some sort of ranged weapon.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Magikarp on July 09, 2011, 12:17:12 pm
Maybe you dont agree on the Longbow, but the facts are there: in my lordly kuyak + plate mittens + 5 ironflesh + 18 str, I (almost) get oneshot by Arbalests and two shot most of the time by longbowmen.

Which is retarded.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Sultan Eren on July 09, 2011, 01:04:16 pm
Maybe you dont agree on the Longbow, but the facts are there: in my lordly kuyak + plate mittens + 5 ironflesh + 18 str, I (almost) get oneshot by Arbalests and two shot most of the time by longbowmen.

Which is retarded.

+1
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Gorath on July 09, 2011, 01:54:06 pm
not stronger than bows

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Gurnisson on July 09, 2011, 04:49:42 pm
What have you been smoking Seawied? Arbalests are deadly, sure, but if you don't throw a shitload of wpf into crossbows, you'll use one minute to reload and have a crosshair that won't fit the screen. Crossbows are better snipers for campers, bows are better for moving around and picking targets along your way, supporting teammates in their melee battles. Neither is really good as non-dedicated, both are good in their own way as dedicated. Problem?

Only thing I don't like is the regular crossbow being half-decent with no investment, but meh, not a big deal.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Magikarp on July 09, 2011, 06:11:01 pm
What have you been smoking Seawied? Arbalests are deadly, sure, but if you don't throw a shitload of wpf into crossbows, you'll use one minute to reload and have a crosshair that won't fit the screen. Crossbows are better snipers for campers, bows are better for moving around and picking targets along your way, supporting teammates in their melee battles. Neither is really good as non-dedicated, both are good in their own way as dedicated. Problem?

Only thing I don't like is the regular crossbow being half-decent with no investment, but meh, not a big deal.
Problem is that they deal way too much damage, a few points off there and it's fixed.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Sultan Eren on July 09, 2011, 06:24:32 pm
Also we can make arrows and bolts very worthy not the price but the quantity.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Seawied on July 09, 2011, 10:54:58 pm
What have you been smoking Seawied? Arbalests are deadly, sure, but if you don't throw a shitload of wpf into crossbows, you'll use one minute to reload and have a crosshair that won't fit the screen. Crossbows are better snipers for campers, bows are better for moving around and picking targets along your way, supporting teammates in their melee battles. Neither is really good as non-dedicated, both are good in their own way as dedicated. Problem?

Only thing I don't like is the regular crossbow being half-decent with no investment, but meh, not a big deal.


Dedicated archers, and dedicated crossbowmen are both fine. Arbalest damage is a bit on the high side, but that's not game-breaking by itself. The problem lies in the fact that anyone can pick up a top-tier crossbow with 0 invested wpf or skills and be incredibly deadly. Bows do not have this problem. A 10% damage nerf would still allow a dedicated crossbower to kill in the same amount of shots 98% of the time. It would prevent the 1 shotting of most high level non-agility builds though.

the WPF requirements would also not affect dedicated crossbowers in any way, shape or form. If anything, it would help them by reducing their competition and number of ranged users. Dedicated crossbowers would become more valuable.


By the way, I'm writing this as someone whose main character is a crossbow hybrid.


@Gorath: with exception to the hunting crossbow, all crossbows are very viable to use against any player in the game... even tin-cans! The only viable bows are Longbow and Warbow against any player, and the khergit bow against people without triple heirloomed plate armor.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: BlackMilk on July 09, 2011, 11:16:35 pm
The problem lies in the fact that anyone can pick up a top-tier crossbow with 0 invested wpf or skills and be incredibly deadly. Bows do not have this problem. A 10% damage nerf would still allow a dedicated crossbower to kill in the same amount of shots 98% of the time. It would prevent the 1 shotting of most high level non-agility builds though.
So the problem is that you dont need any investment to use crossbows but instead of introducing something like wpf reqs you want a damage nerf which is completly useless in this case?
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Seawied on July 09, 2011, 11:18:38 pm
you obviously have not read the thread blackmilk.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: BlackMilk on July 09, 2011, 11:31:58 pm
Ive read the most but I read this and start wondering if that was your point
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Seawied on July 09, 2011, 11:37:41 pm
My opinion: Lower damage on xbows globably by about 10%, and add wpf requirement to all xbows except for hunting. the arbalest should require about 108 wpf, heavy should require 72, regular should require 96, light should require 84.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Gorath on July 10, 2011, 04:36:40 am
It would prevent the 1 shotting of most high level non-agility builds though.
Do all of you guys run around nekkid?  Really, wtf.  Unless you mean headshots.  But 1-shot body shots?  Preposterous sir.

@Gorath: with exception to the hunting crossbow, all crossbows are very viable to use against any player in the game... even tin-cans! The only viable bows are Longbow and Warbow against any player, and the khergit bow against people without triple heirloomed plate armor.

You forgot the strong bow, which is absolutely a beast and what I use(d) on my archer/1her hybrid with GREAT success.  Even against tin-cans.  Sadly all my toons were deleted except my low level SWAT so I don't get to enjoy my medieval FPS.  :(
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Vex. on July 10, 2011, 12:28:09 pm
Lol'd again... Long bow is for tincans etc.. etc.. And the reload time takes ages. If u hate the archers so much, go to a melee only server, they will always be there iven if u like it or not.
But remove pierce dmg from long bow is just wrong. With my mw war bow i need to use 6 arrows on a tincan, with long bow i use 3. But still i prefer mw war bow over long bow cuz its faster and the arrow dons't fall that much while it's raining

But i agree with the xbow nerf, sniper xbow oneshots too much, nerf the dmg down -10 pierce or something.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Magikarp on July 10, 2011, 12:32:32 pm
Xbows are the only weapons so far untouched by the heirloom nerfs.
Heirloom nerf and a few points off their damage overall is the perfect fix, as said before, 10%.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Sultan Eren on July 10, 2011, 01:04:48 pm
Maybe wpp requirement like sea said...
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Lamix on July 10, 2011, 01:52:50 pm
I'd like to see dmg reduced a lot and them to use Powerdraw stat, i know this makes little sense for how crossbows work but if i get 2 shotted by a melee char i know they invested 7-9 points in power strike, if i get 2-3 shotted by long bow i know they invested the same on Power Draw, if i get almost 1 shotted by xbow i know they bought an xbow... i would like to see some investment other then the inital cost and some wpp for one of the hardest hitting weapons in the game.

and yea bring back old textures these new ones are really bad.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Gorath on July 10, 2011, 08:01:37 pm
sniper xbow oneshots too much

Can we please stay in reality for once?  ^  That, does not happen.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: BlackMilk on July 10, 2011, 08:48:10 pm
Can we please stay in reality for once?  ^  That, does not happen.
So true. I own one and I got enough wpf to perform well and everything, Im on level 25 or something and havent killed anyone who had full health in one shot yet.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Seawied on July 11, 2011, 12:14:32 am
Are your arbalest and bolts mw?
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Gurnisson on July 11, 2011, 12:39:29 am
Are your arbalest and bolts mw?

Mine is. Archer five feet away, in leather, survives.
Title: Re: Nerf Longbow and Crossbows (And give back old textures on bows!)
Post by: Overdriven on July 11, 2011, 12:40:09 am
New bows. Check the website.