cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Torp on June 15, 2011, 10:34:45 pm

Title: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 15, 2011, 10:34:45 pm
there should be an option to 1-hit enemies if you sneak in from behind with long dagger and assassinate them.
It should be something with holding the attack while aiming at the head or something so it cant be done in a regular fight, but it would make long dagger better and much more fun without making it OP in any way, and it would open up for a whole new kind of RP'ing.

I cant stand sneaking up behind an enemy without a noice, silently moving in right behind him, stab him in the face... only to damage 1/5 of his life and then get killed when he turns around and slashes your face with a nodachi.

It wouldn't mess with the reality thing either, since you should be able to kill someone if you manage to get behind him without him noticing you and you have a long dagger.

EDIT: probably not possible without WSE, but then we might be able to do it :)

This ability should not  be possible when using shield and tehre should also be certain restrictions on other stuff (so you dont walk around with 1h/shield and then just switch to dagger when yu get the chance to backstab someone)
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Elerion on June 15, 2011, 11:49:26 pm
Don't see why not, as long as it's not overpowered. Though you can pretty much do this with other, more powerful 1handers today.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 16, 2011, 12:05:35 am
Don't see why not, as long as it's not overpowered. Though you can pretty much do this with other, more powerful 1handers today.

yeah, but lnog dagger has more style :D and it would be nice for assassin RP chars :D
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Penitent on June 16, 2011, 12:07:19 am
What is WSE?
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 16, 2011, 12:08:32 am
What is WSE?

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,1803.0.html
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Joseph on June 16, 2011, 04:29:44 am
100% against, this is not TF2
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: MaHuD on June 16, 2011, 07:37:02 am
Yeah max athletics, no armor just a shield and dagger.
In what way is that not OP?
Pretty easy to sneak up on someone when you have high athletics.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Gorath on June 16, 2011, 07:41:21 am

I cant stand sneaking up behind an enemy without a noice, silently moving in ...

That's because the sound in this game is pure shit.  Not because of any good stealthy skills.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 16, 2011, 09:53:34 am
That's because the sound in this game is pure shit.  Not because of any good stealthy skills.

can be, but it's still annoying to not be able atleast 2-shot people when doing it and it's still not easy to do in big battles since a shitload of other enemies will most likely see you as an easy kill and try to kill you.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: SkyrayFox on June 16, 2011, 10:37:19 am
It would probably be heavily abused. What you are saying is that we should give a peasant with a dagger the ability to 1 hit-kill people, meanwhile the only other type of class that can do that is a godlike level 30 2h tincan that had to invest 12 points in Power Strike. To many problems with game balance.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 16, 2011, 11:16:53 am
It would probably be heavily abused. What you are saying is that we should give a peasant with a dagger the ability to 1 hit-kill people, meanwhile the only other type of class that can do that is a godlike level 30 2h tincan that had to invest 12 points in Power Strike. To many problems with game balance.

are you syaing a long dagger will be overpowered with this feature? lol
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Bulzur on June 16, 2011, 11:26:09 am
are you syaing a long dagger will be overpowered with this feature? lol

Yes. You're already doing fine with your little chambering dagger, you don't need that, only more practice.
Also, why give a long dagger instakill ability "for RP", and not give horses a rear attack "for RP", and range weapon a 'slow' "for RP".


This is definitely a bad idea.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: SkyrayFox on June 16, 2011, 11:54:39 am
are you syaing a long dagger will be overpowered with this feature? lol

I'm saying running with a 500 gold equipment should not give you the ability to 1-hit kill people. It would only work If there is a significant drawback on the part of the user so basically you can't fight back if you get spotted, for example a separate skill requiring a high agility level, just like horse archery works. But do we really need another class that runs around the battlefield naked with a dagger trying to stab people and has no other use for the team just because 'it's cool' ?

It would only work if there is a whole new framework  for the character to work in, for example a spy that can change clothes, assassinate the guards and open the enemy gates unnoticed etc. But I'm afraid that's a completely different game.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 18, 2011, 07:17:20 pm
I'm saying running with a 500 gold equipment should not give you the ability to 1-hit kill people. It would only work If there is a significant drawback on the part of the user

You do realize that long dagger cant block and that it takes 5 hits to kill an enemy opponent wearing cloth armor... when you dont glance, that is?

and that cav has the exact same ability, it's called 'couching', the only difference is that couching doesnt take as long, you can get behind the enemy faster and you are also effective when you dont couch.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Overdriven on June 18, 2011, 07:24:20 pm
I'd honestly like to see this. I think it would need some balancing and would run the risk of being OP. But it should be manageable with some testing.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Corwin on June 18, 2011, 07:32:52 pm
Bad idea, if you ask me. This is suppose to be battle simulation, not Assassin's Creed. 
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 18, 2011, 07:40:35 pm
Bad idea, if you ask me. This is suppose to be battle simulation, not Assassin's Creed.

Assuming you get behind an unaware enemy in battle with a long dagger (real life situation (not real life, it would never happen, but reality-wise)), you would be able to kill him with 1 stab, simply by stabbing the right place, which you have time enough to do.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Jacko on June 18, 2011, 07:56:42 pm
How about sneaking up on someone wearing plate and wielding a giant 2 handed axe? Axe backstab? Because surely, the axe would do a ton more damage then the dagger?
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 18, 2011, 08:04:54 pm
How about sneaking up on someone wearing plate and wielding a giant 2 handed axe? Axe backstab? Because surely, the axe would do a ton more damage then the dagger?

Fun=Balance>Reality

and if you cant kill someone with a giant axe after sneaking up on him, you are a retard
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Rhygar666 on June 18, 2011, 08:41:33 pm
its just a crappy idea
i mean he wants a dagger to use with low str to 1hit, so he can just pump the rest in agj and run around very fast.
only exception i would accept adding this would be requirement 30str+Black Armour  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 18, 2011, 09:06:26 pm
its just a crappy idea
i mean he wants a dagger to use with low str to 1hit, so he can just pump the rest in agj and run around very fast.
only exception i would accept adding this would be requirement 30str+Black Armour  :mrgreen:

yes, i will be able to run around very fast, yes i will be able to 1-hit those few times i get behind an unaware enemy without getting shot or lanced because everone goes for peasant who CANT BLOCK

Are you guys seriously saying you think this weapon will be too good?
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Casimir on June 19, 2011, 03:49:04 am
Yeah it would. Long dagger + Buckler with high ath and shield skill. 1 hit people in heavy armour who cant get away even though they have 18+ str. :idea:

This idea is plain stupid. 

It wouldnt be OP if played how you suggest but your ignoring its potential.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Gurnisson on June 19, 2011, 06:48:18 am
Well, if you give it the 'can't be used with a shield' tag it could work. Also, if it would happen, it should get unsheathable tag or get a lot more expensive, since guaranteed one-hit kills are such a big bonus.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Seawied on June 19, 2011, 08:14:10 am
Well, if you give it the 'can't be used with a shield' tag it could work. Also, if it would happen, it should get unsheathable tag or get a lot more expensive, since guaranteed one-hit kills are such a big bonus.

Unsheathable? Nah. Cannot be used with shield? Definitely. It should also be slow
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 19, 2011, 10:53:28 am
Yeah it would. Long dagger + Buckler with high ath and shield skill. 1 hit people in heavy armour who cant get away even though they have 18+ str. :idea:

This idea is plain stupid. 

It wouldnt be OP if played how you suggest but your ignoring its potential.

Already suggested 'canot be used with shield' and potentially 'cannot be used with 2-slot weapons'
Also, as i previously said, it would need some 'charging time' or something, so it takes some time to do it making it not viable in 1 on 1 combat, but only if you get behind an unaware enemy.


Well, if you give it the 'can't be used with a shield' tag it could work. Also, if it would happen, it should get unsheathable tag or get a lot more expensive, since guaranteed one-hit kills are such a big bonus.

Unsheathable would be weird imo, a price increase would seem reasonable - perhaps even add a new weap with this feature so people still get to use the cheap dagger. Most people who would se this, would be in lgiht armor anyways, and they would have loads of money. 5k would seem fair imo.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Glyph on June 19, 2011, 01:23:17 pm
Assuming you get behind an unaware enemy in battle with a long dagger (real life situation (not real life, it would never happen, but reality-wise)), you would be able to kill him with 1 stab, simply by stabbing the right place, which you have time enough to do.
but if you hit someone with a bodkin arrow in his chest he should be dead too, if you slam someone with a hammer he should be dead in one blow, if you slash someone with a sword, he should be dead in an instance. but that just isn't how the game goes. so no
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 19, 2011, 07:00:17 pm
but if you hit someone with a bodkin arrow in his chest he should be dead too, if you slam someone with a hammer he should be dead in one blow, if you slash someone with a sword, he should be dead in an instance. but that just isn't how the game goes. so no

Bad idea, if you ask me. This is suppose to be battle simulation, not Assassin's Creed. 

He started the reality discussion - i know that items and ability's in this game are based on balance, not reality - but i felt like answering him anyways, as it would also suit his reality demands (while still being balanced and letting people have fun)
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Kenji on June 19, 2011, 07:02:30 pm
I don't know about the one-hit kill, but it'd be enjoyable if there are bonus damage to backstabbing position.

Sorry, just speaking from a D&D player mindset.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: monsterbrum on June 19, 2011, 08:43:49 pm
sorry, but just no..
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 19, 2011, 09:44:18 pm
sorry, but just no..

nice constructive criticism and you also have some great arguments for your opinion there... i'm impressed

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Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Christo on June 19, 2011, 09:54:13 pm
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Nice idea, but.. maybe you've played games like this a bith much?  :)
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 19, 2011, 09:58:36 pm
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Nice idea, but.. maybe you've played games like this a bith much?  :)

I have played more cRPG :D

and yes, i got the idea while playing on my assassin alt and RP'ing - but i got it because it simply seemed like crap (both balance-wise, fun-wise and reality-wise) to sneak behind an enemy and then not be able to kill him unless you hit him 5+ times.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Christo on June 19, 2011, 10:00:04 pm
I have played more cRPG :D

and yes, i got the idea while playing on my assassin alt and RP'ing - but i got it because it simply seemed like crap (both balance-wise, fun-wise and reality-wise) to sneak behind an enemy and then not be able to kill him unless you hit him 5+ times.

Well, I'm not against it, but it would need a lot of thought/balancing to be fair.
But sounds nice. A simple damage multiplicator for the back on some weapons (Is that even possible?) would be a good idea too.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: EponiCo on June 19, 2011, 10:43:37 pm
The long dagger does nearly the same damage as a german greatsword. If you have to hit people 5 times with it you are doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 19, 2011, 10:55:55 pm
The long dagger does nearly the same damage as a german greatsword. If you have to hit people 5 times with it you are doing it wrong.

No it doesn't and it is easier to hit properly with a longer weapon, and long dagger requires an agi build, meaning you cant have 10 PS.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: EponiCo on June 19, 2011, 11:05:20 pm
Long Dagger
weapon length: 47
weight: 0.3
speed rating: 112
weapon length: 47
thrust damage: 25 pierce
swing damage: 23 cut
slots: 0

German Greatsword
weapon length: 123
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 123
thrust damage: 26 pierce
swing damage: 38 cut
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Secondary Mode


Yes it's harder to hit properly. But if you do, it's oneshot to threeshot with 5 PS.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Seawied on June 19, 2011, 11:11:35 pm
I've never been 1 shotted by either of those weapons Eponi
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 19, 2011, 11:12:51 pm
nop, and with 3 PS, you're lucky to scracth your opponent :D

and btw, a German GS user getting behind an enemy would use Overhead, not thrust.

Also; german GS has 4 attack directions, and you are comparing german's weakest to dagger's strongest.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Seawied on June 19, 2011, 11:17:46 pm
nop, and with 3 PS, you're lucky to scracth your opponent :D

and btw, a German GS user getting behind an enemy would use Overhead, not thrust.

Also; german GS has 4 attack directions, and you are comparing german's weakest to dagger's strongest.

exactly this. The German GS's pierce was nerfed down to prevent it from being the end-all-be-all stabbing weapon. Its cut is much more effective.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: EponiCo on June 19, 2011, 11:29:00 pm
I've never been 1 shotted by either of those weapons Eponi

Well, I have (also by pikes). I've also killed a fair deal of people with dagger oneshot (or long espada) it's certainly possible.

@Torp

Yeah, I know GG has better attack options. Or that every weapon is better. But that kind of makes sense because every weapon is better. You'd only use a dagger because you can conceal it or grappling (which both doesn't exist in warband) or when the enemy is helpless. As it stands you can kill people with long dagger, but it's hard and I see no real problem with that. With 3 PS as a dedicated melee you are also gimping yourself.
Title: Re: Dagger backstabs
Post by: Torp on June 19, 2011, 11:33:25 pm
Well, I have (also by pikes). I've also killed a fair deal of people with dagger oneshot (or long espada) it's certainly possible.

@Torp

Yeah, I know GG has better attack options. Or that every weapon is better. But that kind of makes sense because every weapon is better. You'd only use a dagger because you can conceal it or grappling (which both doesn't exist in warband) or when the enemy is helpless. As it stands you can kill people with long dagger, but it's hard and I see no real problem with that. With 3 PS as a dedicated melee you are also gimping yourself.

'When the enemy is helpless' should be when he is unaware of the presence of the enemy behind him. In that situation, you can't get a kill with the dagger unless your opponent is very lightly armored or you beat him in he duel that comes after your first one-two hits.