cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lanic0r on June 15, 2011, 07:23:53 pm

Title: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Lanic0r on June 15, 2011, 07:23:53 pm
Hello,
as you know there is still the question: is this game balanced on duel ?

Well, we can not decide balance by our opinions, we need numbers. And here is the Matrix. After ours of work its done.
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For explaination: This is an evaluation matrix. You put in weapon´s settings. The numbers 0-4 weight the properties in comparsion. This does mean one of both is more important/mighty than the other. 0 means the line is max. 2 both is equal. 4 the column is max. As you see i did not implement horse stoping because a InfVSCav is not regular and insignificant.
If anyone wants to work on it or have suggestions i will upload the excel file with pleasure!
PS: special thanks to Nubert ;)
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Siiem on June 15, 2011, 07:28:22 pm
Lanicor
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Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: DANK on June 15, 2011, 07:31:51 pm


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Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: BaldRider on June 15, 2011, 07:37:11 pm
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Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Yaron on June 15, 2011, 08:08:58 pm
I think Fasaderp, leader of the itemunbalancingbalancing crew already uses seets like that to balance the items afaik.

Btw, danish greatsword spd rtg 94? elegant poleaxe spd rtg 93? Do we play the same game? o.o
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Lanic0r on June 15, 2011, 08:11:58 pm
I think Fasaderp, leader of the itemunbalancingbalancing crew already uses seets like that to balance the items afaik.

Btw, danish greatsword spd rtg 94? elegant poleaxe spd rtg 93? Do we play the same game? o.o
Masterwork;)
one of my assuptions was that evryone is going for masterwork weapon.
Btw how can i contact them, id like to participate :D
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: BlackMilk on June 15, 2011, 08:13:38 pm
Btw how can i contact them, id like to participate :D
That would be the end of crpg.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: ManOfWar on June 15, 2011, 08:23:35 pm
I remember you Lancicor, this is ForlornSoldier,

You were horrendous at this game
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Yaron on June 15, 2011, 08:26:46 pm
Masterwork;)
one of my assuptions was that evryone is going for masterwork weapon.
Btw how can i contact them, id like to participate :D

In this case the dmg of DGS is wrong :p
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Lanic0r on June 15, 2011, 08:32:22 pm
In this case the dmg of DGS is wrong :p
As i said, i made a few suppositions. I would appretiate you tell me the correct stats but im afraid it wont change much:D
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Yaron on June 15, 2011, 08:39:15 pm
As i said, i made a few suppositions. I would appretiate you tell me the correct stats but im afraid it wont change much:D

MW Danish Great Sword: 26 pierce Thrust, 43 cut swing, 94 spd rtg
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Lanic0r on June 15, 2011, 08:49:29 pm
MW Danish Great Sword: 26 pierce Thrust, 43 cut swing, 94 spd rtg
Thx, but to make my self clear. Im not just yelling and crying about things that are unbalanced in my opinion. I try to understand and work on it. Fasader has a unpleasant work to do. He cant satisfy evryone. But maybe he welcomes new working mates ;)
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Yaron on June 15, 2011, 08:58:33 pm
Well, Fasader is usually hanging around on irc #mount&blade-crpg - try your luck :)

Unbalancing crew members are: Shik, Urist, Fasader - Fasader leading it

I asked Fasader as well about that, but it seems they dont want any new ppl in their group or any help with it.
He also said chadz would have to decide this but well, even more luck trying to contact chadz about this :P ...

Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Lanic0r on June 15, 2011, 09:02:35 pm
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Very kind of you. 3 mates is much and im not online all day long to work off big to do lists, but ill try ;D
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: IG_Saint on June 15, 2011, 09:23:33 pm
Why did you only apply the animation reach bonus to the danish overhead and stab and not to all the other animations? And you didn't even use the right bonus for them either.

Also are those the stats of a masterwork elegant poleaxe? They seem rather low for a masterwork item.

Animation reach bonusses:
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Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Lanic0r on June 15, 2011, 09:41:02 pm
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1. Range: Empirical studies
Nubert und me jointed the duel server and we checked out the range. I blocked and he swung (overhead, side swing and stab) with DGS. Next step was the way around until one of the lances reached danish greatsword´s range. Danish stab has a bit less range than light lance! So this are real facts right came up from the game itself.
2. Nubert has got a MW elegant poleaxe, so im sure he can read :D
3. "Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80 *According to waltF4 still accurate even with the new animation*"
what does +80 mean. it cant be a multiplier like 1.8 otherwise the length would be 223.
Please, if you explain this numbers i can implement this to the matrix.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 15, 2011, 09:47:50 pm
+80 as in it gives you 80 more reach, so if the weapon was 122 now it stabs for 202, if I read the report from Walt correctly.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: IG_Saint on June 15, 2011, 09:59:42 pm
+80 as in it gives you 80 more reach, so if the weapon was 122 now it stabs for 202, if I read the report from Walt correctly.

Yes. It's not precisely 80 though, but something around there.

As to Lanic0r's test, I'm guessing you did something wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woesVWoCtkM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woesVWoCtkM)

That video shows a 117 reach practice longsword outranging a 182 reach scythe, so a 124 greatsword should easily outrange a 175 lance.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Penitent on June 15, 2011, 10:47:39 pm
Polearms should have more reach then.  THey should out-distance 2h weapons.  It's like their only advantage...
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Seawied on June 15, 2011, 10:52:35 pm
Polearms should have more reach then.  THey should out-distance 2h weapons.  It's like their only advantage...

Polearms are more diverse and more universal. They're better at stopping horses and are altogether very competitive with 2h.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: BlackMilk on June 15, 2011, 10:57:06 pm
Polearms should have more reach then.  THey should out-distance 2h weapons.  It's like their only advantage...
Yeaaaah,riiiiiight.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Tears of Destiny on June 15, 2011, 11:02:40 pm
Polearms should have more reach then.  THey should out-distance 2h weapons.  It's like their only advantage...

Stop horses as well as stun the opponent longer.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Penitent on June 15, 2011, 11:06:10 pm
Polearms are more diverse and more universal. They're better at stopping horses and are altogether very competitive with 2h.

Damage is comparable
2h is faster
2h has more reach
pole can stop horses..oh wait 2h can do that too by hitting x.

I guess pole is more diverse because there are some super-long spears/pikes.   As a weapon class though, they seem to come up short (pun intended) when looking at Walt's attack length modifiers. :)
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Torp on June 15, 2011, 11:18:33 pm
imo Polearms are better for big battles, 2h's are better for duelling
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: WaltF4 on June 15, 2011, 11:40:10 pm
2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80 *According to waltF4 still accurate even with the new animation*

That test was preformed before the 0.223 patch, which included some modification to the two-hand weapon thrust. I know the speed of the thrust animation was reduced to be slower than the overhead and side slashes, but I have not tested the reach since the patch. However, the reach does seem to be similar.



1. Range: Empirical studies
Nubert und me jointed the duel server and we checked out the range. I blocked and he swung (overhead, side swing and stab) with DGS. Next step was the way around until one of the lances reached danish greatsword´s range. Danish stab has a bit less range than light lance! So this are real facts right came up from the game itself.

You will not get very precise reach measurement with two people both attacking each other. The distance the weapons travels between objects is different for attacks made at different angles. This is why players aim down at the ground or up into the air when thrusting at targets very close to themselves: it increases the distance the weapon collider travels before interacting with the hit box of the other player which is required for thrusts to do full damage. You should have one person attack a fixed target with both weapons using a fixed camera angle. You also need to be careful with the length of time a weapon is held before attacking as there seems to be variations in the weapon reach with held attacks verses quick attacks. The reach variation is on the order of less than 5 cm but would explain remarks on precision in the original reach study by Stabbing Hobo (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.0.html). I was working on a study that included reach measurements and it was requiring a macro program (that is no longer functioning on my computer  :() to input the attack command on a key being released rather than the standard key being pressed to prevent any hold time on the attacks. It also appears that the maximum reach of right-to-left and left-to-right attacks are not constant with the angle about the attacker so the tip of the weapon does not follow a circular arc. As such, the facing of the attacker relative to the defender will partial determine the reach.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Kafein on June 16, 2011, 12:18:56 am
imo Polearms are better for big battles, 2h's are better for duelling

This.


To all the guys saying that polearms are clearly inferior to 2h, have you ever seen Leed playing on foot ? His poleaxe seems made of a platinum-iridium alloy with a ceramic blade.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Lanic0r on June 16, 2011, 07:38:12 am
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Cool stuff mate:)
Ye, there is a variation. I didnt write it down on the begining because most dont read anything, they just want to comment their OPINIONS xD
1. We were fix. I kept blocking on a fix position. He was for example overheading. The angel of overhead doesent matter ;D
Same with stab. In this case he chose the horizontal until he hit the block. I ingonred the variation of "5cm", wehn it hits after 5 swings it is its range, thats it.
2. If i put in this +80 , -15 etc. without validation, the matrix would say: danger 2h DGS is a much more overpowered weapon
3. We can validate the range togheter waltF4. Just send me a message for the meeting (OMG like in Outlook at work :D)
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Peasant_Woman on June 16, 2011, 08:06:51 am
Whether the target is blocking or not blocking seems to make a difference in reach too. If someone stabs at you with a spear and you are just outside their range but block anyway to be on the safe side, the spear will hit the block whereas if you hadn't blocked he would have only stabbed air.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Barracuda on June 16, 2011, 08:27:26 am
Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember someone saying that  a two hander and a polearm have different reactions to stun. Polearms of same weight stun weapons easier and also don't get stunned as easily. Does anyone have the formula of this?

I did a quick search in the forums but came up empty handed. It could've been in IRC or I've just been dreaming.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Vibe on June 16, 2011, 08:35:34 am
I think you should spend less time thinking over item balance and spend more time dueling.

The way I see it you're just looking for an excuse because you suck at dueling.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Kelugarn on June 16, 2011, 09:02:28 am
imo Polearms are better for big battles, 2h's are better for duelling
I have to agree, as an avid plolearm user I find myself doing much more for the team cav-hunting/poking than trying to engage in a series of one-on-one battles. While I can still duel effectively one-on-one on the duel server I loose most of my combat capability if I have to fight the same person in a battle without support. IMO the bonus given to 2h's by the animations is fair given the stun of plolearms, now if that stun went away...  :oops:
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: v/onMega on June 16, 2011, 09:08:40 am
I think you should spend less time thinking over item balance and spend more time dueling.

The way I see it you're just looking for an excuse because you suck at dueling.

This.

Lanicor, uses a high damage (blunt) weapon with knockdown (he will keep attacking even when opp. is on the ground) and asks for balance....and a fair duel xD.

You get stomped by swords and cry, you win against a spiked mace and cheer yourself.... hahaha.

Why didnt you take the chance to ask Nubert how to use a poleaxe?
He definetly knows how to!
Do a matrix of your common mistakes and keep it for yourself. Thx.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Vibe on June 16, 2011, 09:36:40 am
Not to mention you have an incredible (20 at max) ping.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Paul on June 16, 2011, 10:45:49 am
From my point of view almost all weapons are good in duels. Even 1h without shield are on par with polearms and 2h imo. They have all advantages and disadvantages.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Phew on June 16, 2011, 03:04:32 pm
From my point of view almost all weapons are good in duels. Even 1h without shield are on par with polearms and 2h imo. They have all advantages and disadvantages.

Except unbalanced weapons, since they can't counter-attack after blocking (or at least not fast enough to avoid getting struck again). This means anyone with half a brain can dominate an unbalance weapon user in a duel, just by facehugging them and mashing the attack button.

No one told me this until I had heirloomed my Great Long Bardiche twice. Now I might as well just stubbornly stick with it, continuing to lose 1v1s to archers with 0-slot weapons and 1 wpf.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: IG_Saint on June 16, 2011, 03:48:50 pm
From my point of view almost all weapons are good in duels. Even 1h without shield are on par with polearms and 2h imo. They have all advantages and disadvantages.

Yes, but 1h no shield is alot harder to do well with. You need far beter blocking, positioning and timing, to compensate for the low range and damage.

Except unbalanced weapons, since they can't counter-attack after blocking (or at least not fast enough to avoid getting struck again). This means anyone with half a brain can dominate an unbalance weapon user in a duel, just by facehugging them and mashing the attack button.

No one told me this until I had heirloomed my Great Long Bardiche twice. Now I might as well just stubbornly stick with it, continuing to lose 1v1s to archers with 0-slot weapons and 1 wpf.


Even with a slow unbalanced weapon you can get hits in, if you time and position them properly.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Tristan on June 16, 2011, 03:53:26 pm
Yes, but 1h no shield is alot harder to do well with. You need far beter blocking, positioning and timing, to compensate for the low range and damage.

In my earlier Gen I had 130 wpf 1h and 80 wpf polearm.

In 1 vs. 1 duels it was easier for me to win with a polearm because of range. I am not saying vMega is wrong in any way, just that in order to do good as a 1h no shield against a two-hander you often have to make 2-3 good blocks to get in range.

With the polearm you have the range advantage or similar range.

Most often the opponent dueler is equally good as positioning and know that the one-hander should not get too close.

How ever, the more beastly your blocking skills the less advantage the two-hander has over the 1h hander.
Overhead polearm attacks still has a grusome stun...
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: BlackMilk on June 16, 2011, 03:58:03 pm
I think you should spend less time thinking over item balance and spend more time dueling.

The way I see it you're just looking for an excuse because you suck at dueling.
Perfect reasoning. :mad:
You should stop offend Lanic0r and start to tell him why he is wrong. Everything else would be brainless trolling.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Vibe on June 16, 2011, 04:10:01 pm
Well I'm no master duelist.
Perhaps he should stop arguing with Phyrex and ask him for directions instead?

But either way you can't help a man who doesn't believe it's his problem, not the items.
Title: Re: The matrix says...how to know whether duel is balanced!
Post by: Butan on June 16, 2011, 04:13:32 pm
Except unbalanced weapons, since they can't counter-attack after blocking (or at least not fast enough to avoid getting struck again). This means anyone with half a brain can dominate an unbalance weapon user in a duel, just by facehugging them and mashing the attack button.


I must say that my 33str/3agi build, when coupled with gmaul (even if I prefer GS) can easily dominate any opponent (even spammers) when appropriate footwork and blocks are used. You need only ONE error from your opponent to one-shot him or throw in on the ground-finish him. And you can sustain a few good swings yourself before going down.

Fact is, like Paul said every weapons are cool if properly used.
Only difference is in every person's view about them.