cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Sir_Ironlake on June 15, 2011, 06:18:52 pm
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Instead of an anti cav and almost ranged weapon, they are the ultimate close combat tool... or at least as effective as a short sword.
Doesnt matter if I pass the point by half the shaft, am facehuging my opponent, he can still pike me for max dmg. Or can be max effective with it in a room which is so small the pike couldnt be fit in it.
Just make the thing colide with surfaces already...
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block down
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Block down.
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Native bug-thing-can't-be-fixed IIRC.
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Which pike ???
I never could duel anyone with the 3m pike so if someone can teach me how to do that. I tried all the lolstabbing I know but I never hit my opponent because he's too close.
With the standard long spear, however, it is piss easy to do (but still quite easy to block too).
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Yeah, the block can`t even block.
To defeat a guy with a pike block down untill you are close and kill him.
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Pike are too fast... have u ever seen a medieval soldier fight in close combat with a pike?? Pike are anti cav and this is ok but, must be slow not fast like now!
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i would love to see how are u with pikes..
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same issiue with 2h. they spin around without touching you with the tip. i wonder how the box of weapon looks. maybe they can cut the weaponbox?
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animation glitches can't be fixed ...
Also: This is a game and games are all about balance and not realism. Live with it.
If you lose as a infantry against a pikeman in close 1vs1 combat, you seriously doing it wrong.
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If you lose as a infantry against a pikeman in close 1vs1 combat, you seriously doing it wrong.
Let me guess. You don't play the game very much.
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Colliding with surfaces(ground) is planned with WSE and it will create epic lulz and rage. I'm looking forward to it.
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Let me guess. You don't play the game very much.
It is true, if you lose as inf against a guy with a weapon that can not block, you are not doing it right.
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Colliding with surfaces(ground) is planned with WSE and it will create epic lulz and rage. I'm looking forward to it.
That's great. It will remove that retarded looking ground hitter :mrgreen:
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Block down and occasionally block up. The only pikeman that manages to give me at least some trouble in a 1v1 is Craftybadger, but he still has less chances to win simply because of his weapon. Like people have said above, you're doing it wrong.
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Colliding with surfaces(ground) is planned with WSE and it will create epic lulz and rage. I'm looking forward to it.
Well, I think there will be just used other ways to glitch the aniamtion ... be it by spinning around or by piking into the air instead of the ground... i am pretty sure it won't help that much.
I am guessing we are talking about the Long Spear. It's mainly a support and anti-cav weapon. In 1vs1 situation you mostly will fail with a Long Spear, if your enemy isnt a complete retard or noob. So there is no reason to gimp it even further for this situations ...
Let me guess. You don't play the game very much.
More then you appearently, you are invited to show me how you will defeat me with a pike/Long Spear in Duell.
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What about pikes going through teamates and hitting the enemy?
Has that been addressed?
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What about pikes going through teamates and hitting the enemy?
Has that been addressed?
Well, thats right. Overhead spamming through teammates = lulz :D
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what is WSE?
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Colliding with surfaces(ground) is planned with WSE and it will create epic lulz and rage. I'm looking forward to it.
Nice. Stab abusers of the glitch annoy me to no end.
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I'm a decent melee fighter and with a long spear I just lulz at it's speed. For it's lenght and trust damage + capacity to overhead, it is indeed too fast. Often if I manage to stab a guy in the back or while he's fighting a teamate, with the stunlock of polearm, I'm able to spam him with 1-2 more stabs and kill him before he can even block me.
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Pike & Long spear are the worst dueling weapons in the game. If you lose against them and then come here to ask for nerfs then you need to go die in a lava lake. :twisted:
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There are many worse dueling weapons than the long spear. At least you can block with it.
Looking forward to surface-colliding. 1h will be the new rage on siege.
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Long Spear is a great dueling weapon imo, Pike not as much.
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More then you appearently, you are invited to show me how you will defeat me with a pike/Long Spear in Duell.
Sorry, I don't use the lolpike and lolspear. You're free to fight (can't remember his name) ATS member who uses the lolspear and rapes at it because of the ability to hit someone point blank with it and then tell me how awesome you are when you lose.
It is true, if you lose as inf against a guy with a weapon that can not block, you are not doing it right.
You don't play much either for the simple fact that you can block with long spear and pike.
Edit: I just bought a pike. Confirmed can block with it. Your post was probably the most idiotic I have seen to date. I'm also 7/2 and I'm naked with the pike.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Thank you very much. Try again.
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Btw long spear is too fast to be a support weapon. Before i said pike but i mean long spear.
Siboire tell the truth, long spear is too fast and after the stun u can spam 1-2 more hits and your enemy can do nothing...
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81 is too fast for the long spear with only 2 attacks, one of which does 15b (between the peasant cudgel and club...)?
I actually find the longer animation of long thrusting weapons "useful" - this is what allows one to make a thrusting "area attack" because in the half a second it takes to complete the swing anything that will cross the line of the pike will register as a hit, even if you rotate it about. This is the same as the effect of slower swinging weapons being easier to be used from horseback due to the timing of the swing being less critical. I find it incredibly annoying when I get hit by the pike because it is slow, thrusted in a random direction and rotated into me.
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Pike is way too bugged. Glitches through teammates and walls with ease. Not long spear, but pike.
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I'm a decent melee fighter and with a long spear I just lulz at it's speed. For it's lenght and trust damage + capacity to overhead, it is indeed too fast. Often if I manage to stab a guy in the back or while he's fighting a teamate, with the stunlock of polearm, I'm able to spam him with 1-2 more stabs and kill him before he can even block me.
Huh ? :shock:
Are you telling me you manage to stunlock someone with a longspear ?
Excuse me, but i thought the stunlock is what happens when you use a heavy polearm (poleaxe for example) against a light weapon (1h sword), and when the 1hsword blocks, it gets stunned a bit. No such thing as a polearm stunlock when you "hit" someone. That's the "normal" stun when succesfully hitting someone, and not bouncing off him.
If you loose to a pike in 1v1, you were doing it very wrong.
If you loose to a longspear in 1v1, you were doing it wrong.
If you loose to a spear/awlpike in 1v1, means your opponent was just better than you, like in other duels.
If you loose vs 2 of thoses aboves, it's normal. Teamworking with long pointy sticks means a big win.
Thoses polearms are support weapon. Anticav, small poking and overhead assist. That's all.
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Long spears are adequate dueling weapons in the hands of a skilled polearmsman.
But the real problem is that Long Spears and Pikes are only 2 slots.
I thought it was fine when they were only 3 slots.
Now 2H just pick up a Pike to ward off cavalry and then drop it when they get into a fight with someone else. Why should 2H players be so effective against both cavalry and other infantry?
Leave Long Spears and Pikes to the dedicated polearms who can use them in close quarters as well as ward off cav, not just a conveniance weapon like throwing axes used to be or crossbows are now.
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Pikes and long spears are fine in my opinion. There are few effective pure pikemen, I can only name Craftybadger, so it obviously requires some skill otherwise the whole server would be full off pure pikers. Its a great support weapon in clusterfucks and it should be.
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Long spears are adequate dueling weapons in the hands of a skilled polearmsman.
But the real problem is that Long Spears and Pikes are only 2 slots.
I thought it was fine when they were only 3 slots.
Now 2H just pick up a Pike to ward off cavalry and then drop it when they get into a fight with someone else. Why should 2H players be so effective against both cavalry and other infantry?
Leave Long Spears and Pikes to the dedicated polearms who can use them in close quarters as well as ward off cav, not just a conveniance weapon like throwing axes used to be or crossbows are now.
heaven forbid infantry being able to defend themselves against cavalry!
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Colliding with surfaces(ground) is planned with WSE and it will create epic lulz and rage. I'm looking forward to it.
And when is WSE planned, hmm ? :lol:
A LOT of rage, I agree... This potentially changes all the fighting habits so it would be just like a new game :o
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Appearently you guys dont get it.
Long Spears ARE viable in 1vs1 ... noone ever declined that BUT:
If 2 players of the same skill level would duel, one with Long Spear, one with some random polearm/2h/whatever ... who do you think will win?!
If you lose against a Long Spear in Duel its simply that your enemy is better then you and would pwn you even harder with some proper polearm. So its the fault of your lack of skill and not the fault of a "Overpowered Long Spear" (LOL!) ...
Reasons are obvious:
- Only thrust and overhead swing, which can't be feinted ... or at least not very effectivly coz of pretty low speed compared to other weapons.
- It is slow, Sure, it is fast enough to reply an attack after you blocked successfully but thats all, you never ever can spam someone with a Long Spear, if he blocked your first attack unless he is a complete noob. Sure I can already hear the whine: Mimimi, I can stun lock someone if I poke him in the back! Its redicilious fast! BLAH! .... -> Some news for you! other weapons can as well stunlock someone from behind! and that even way faster and with more dmg! cewl eh? ...
- Good chance to just bounce if enemy is too close, the ground stab glitch doesnt work always + you can be spamed easier than with other weapons.
At Linx: Sure lets balance the game around one guy, who maybe is able to beat ppl with a logn spear in duel! the reason could never be that he is just better then you (and maybe me, dunno, dont know him)
Long Spear should be supposed to be a free win in 1vs1 situations regardless of which skill the player have and if he is a lvl 1 peasant or not! ... very good idea! ... NOT!
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you forgot to add they are the easiest attack to chamber in the game. Overhead chamber to win!
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FYI Bulzur (sorry if i mistypped ur name), polearms have a longuer stun whenever you get hit by one. So when using polearms its easier to land an extra hit right after u hit ur enemy once. Its not just heavier polearm but all. I tried and tested a agi build and whenever i was using warspear, red tessal, any kind of staves or any fast polearms i could almost keep the guy stunned and keep hitting him, he could not move nor block in time, i just needed some little feinting when he managed to block to land another hit and restart the 'stunning' process. it seems like its hardcoded so dunkey team cant change it: polearms have a longuer stun whenever they hit u. Thats why, with high enough wpf (~150) i could stab my enemies a second time or even a third time, sometimes, with the longspear and they could not do anything, i killed them before they could successfully block my poke.
Edit: thats why IMO long spear is too fast. I would lower the speed to at least 75 if not less to make it a real support/anti-cav weapon.
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Siboire, longspear isn't fast enough to obtain this stun though. You can do it easily with a warspear, but long-spear can't hit the speed threshold to create an infinite stun. Not even if you heirloom a long-spear.
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I don't know...you guys are arguing for pikes, but in the past month or so I've seen a dramatic increase in pikes being used in close combat. Fact is it can hit you even when you're far past the head of the pike and it is bloody quick in the hands of a high level build. Hell just look at badger...he tops almost every round he's on and he uses just a pike. It can stun and the majority of pike users (I always follow them in death cam because I'm interested) can hit a guy, stun him, and hit him again quickly without even a pause. The fact they rarely glance off armour (unlike most other polearms) means they do the ultimate thrust damage most of the time.
In all honesty I'd like to see a complete over haul of pikes. Make them sheath able, however make them only able to be used in a stance in order to be anti-cav. Don't bull crap to me about it not being able to be done because other mods do it. X mode is perfect for it and I've heard from various people it's relatively easy to implement. Other mods use other buttons such as Q to make a stance mode. There is absolutely no argument for why a pike can be used to top servers, or at least get a K/D when they aren't being used as anti-cav.
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blabla (in a good way^^)
Thanks for the information, played for a bit but didn't really notice that. So that's why i can spam with my ironstaff. :rolleyes:
Anyway, i doubt you can spam with a longspear.
And as Yaron said, if you get killed by a longspear user, you would have gotten owned by him if he had a warspear. It's not cause of the weapon, but of the player.
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Appearently you guys dont get it.
Long Spears ARE viable in 1vs1 ... noone ever declined that BUT:
If 2 players of the same skill level would duel, one with Long Spear, one with some random polearm/2h/whatever ... who do you think will win?!
If you lose against a Long Spear in Duel its simply that your enemy is better then you and would pwn you even harder with some proper polearm. So its the fault of your lack of skill and not the fault of a "Overpowered Long Spear" (LOL!) ...
Reasons are obvious:
- Only thrust and overhead swing, which can't be feinted ... or at least not very effectivly coz of pretty low speed compared to other weapons.
- It is slow, Sure, it is fast enough to reply an attack after you blocked successfully but thats all, you never ever can spam someone with a Long Spear, if he blocked your first attack unless he is a complete noob. Sure I can already hear the whine: Mimimi, I can stun lock someone if I poke him in the back! Its redicilious fast! BLAH! .... -> Some news for you! other weapons can as well stunlock someone from behind! and that even way faster and with more dmg! cewl eh? ...
- Good chance to just bounce if enemy is too close, the ground stab glitch doesnt work always + you can be spamed easier than with other weapons.
At Linx: Sure lets balance the game around one guy, who maybe is able to beat ppl with a logn spear in duel! the reason could never be that he is just better then you (and maybe me, dunno, dont know him)
Long Spear should be supposed to be a free win in 1vs1 situations regardless of which skill the player have and if he is a lvl 1 peasant or not! ... very good idea! ... NOT!
this is the best post n the topic. Discussion over.
I considered writing something along the lines of this cause the amount of people who actually said long spear is OP duelling weap was stunning... but you did it for me, thx :) +1 to you, -1 to Linx
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Siboire, longspear isn't fast enough to obtain this stun though. You can do it easily with a warspear, but long-spear can't hit the speed threshold to create an infinite stun. Not even if you heirloom a long-spear.
I did not meant that it's fast enough to infinite stun but it has a speed high enough to easily land at least another hit if the guy is not facing you (by the time he turns around and block, you can land another hit for sure). I don't know, it's my personnal experience, I probably won't use it anymore as I find it "lolstabbing" and cheap, but that's just me. :mrgreen:
Edit: fixed typping mistakes (not my native language, sorry for grammar failures lol)
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I don't know...you guys are arguing for pikes, but in the past month or so I've seen a dramatic increase in pikes being used in close combat. Fact is it can hit you even when you're far past the head of the pike and it is bloody quick in the hands of a high level build. Hell just look at badger...he tops almost every round he's on and he uses just a pike...
Omg. There is one guy who is good at piking in melee. One guy. Let's just fucking nerf the thing already :rolleyes:
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He's not the only guy. He's just the most prominent example. There are plenty of dedicated pikemen out there at the moment.
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Omg. There is one guy who is good at piking in melee. One guy. Let's just fucking nerf the thing already :rolleyes:
More like 10-20
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its a support weapon, designed for killing people in melee. like bills its not just used for fighting cavalry.
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More like 10-20
Name 5 (five) dedicated Eu pikemen please.
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I don't know...you guys are arguing for pikes, but in the past month or so I've seen a dramatic increase in pikes being used in close combat. Fact is it can hit you even when you're far past the head of the pike and it is bloody quick in the hands of a high level build. Hell just look at badger...he tops almost every round he's on and he uses just a pike.
Just like any good player.
It can stun and the majority of pike users (I always follow them in death cam because I'm interested) can hit a guy, stun him, and hit him again quickly without even a pause.
No. It's exactly like spam. If this happens, the enemy either has a bad build, or is interrupted, or just didn't pressed rmb to block it.
The fact they rarely glance off armour (unlike most other polearms) means they do the ultimate thrust damage most of the time.
Sure. The fact that they have one of the weakest thrust damage of polearms and long reaches makes them actually the weapons that glance the most.
In all honesty I'd like to see a complete over haul of pikes. Make them sheath able, however make them only able to be used in a stance in order to be anti-cav. Don't bull crap to me about it not being able to be done because other mods do it. X mode is perfect for it and I've heard from various people it's relatively easy to implement. Other mods use other buttons such as Q to make a stance mode.
Will hardly be balanced. Currently, horses are so maneuvrable that pikemen nearly have to wait for cav to run into their pike. If cav are clever and don't blindly charge in, pikemen have to wait and survive the enemy fire with just a hope of seeing some cav guy not turning it's back at them 2 meters before they reach the pike and evade.
There is absolutely no argument for why a pike can be used to top servers, or at least get a K/D when they aren't being used as anti-cav.
There's absolutely no argument for why a pike couldn't be used to top servers, or at least get a (good ?) K/D when they aren't being used as anti-cav. Without support, the pikeman is dead, unlike 2h/poleaxe spammers.
Name 5 (five) dedicated Eu pikemen please.
I often play my pure pikeman alt Kofilin, and Robert from my clan is a pure pikeman as well. I also saw Joxer playing on EU servers but not that often so I suppose he's NA. I think some shogunates are pure pikemen too.
But it's clearly just an emerging class at the moment. The abundance of horses makes it worth the natural drawbacks, so I bet more and more people will be pure pikemen in the future.
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I play dedicated long spear ( :rolleyes: ) guy. What I said was good melee pikeman. There is plenty of dedicated pikeman but such is the nature of the weapon that only craftybadger is good with it in melee.
[Add] No I'm EU btw :)
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Name 5 (five) dedicated Eu pikemen please.
Joxer the Molester, Dado the Backstabber, Robert the Old Perv, Bifi the Angry German Kid and CraftyBadger the Haxer. Shall i continue ? :wink:
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Out of all people mentioned above only Craftybadger (Dado is better with awlpikes imo, we're talking about pikes/long spears) has some chances to beat decent people in a 1v1 situation or a duel.
My point was, getting killed by a long spear / pike in a 1v1 is like getting killed by a wooden club. You have just been embarassed and outclassed by an obviously good player and instead of respecting his dedication to a very underpowered (for 1v1s) weapon, you come on the forums shouting "NERF!!!1". You should feel ashamed and start practicing more, yet you try to cover your shame with pathetic excuses like " the pike's speed is too OP" .
Whenever i get killed by a pike in a 1v1 (which is quite rare, this is not bragging, it's simple game mechanics), i know this is only because i failed and the guy is skilled with his weapon, not becaue he's "OP".
Pikes/Long spears are very good in big group battles, pretty much anyone can do it to some extent and i honestly find nothing wrong with it, i actually like how sometimes the evolution of warfare in cRPG somewhat resembles the changes that were happening in real history. Using long pointy things in a battle was a smart tactic all over the world .
P.S. CraftyBadger is the only pure pikeman in the Shogunate atm. Btw even he glances alot in the heat of the battle.
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+1 to Oda.
It is true that pike is awesome in groups and i guess we will see a lot of them in strategus.
They lack in 1vs1 and thats their weak side.
Its ok that some weapons have great group combat abilties if they are weak in another area.
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Anyway, even if there are very skilled pikemen that can effectively fight 1 on 1 with other players, it's really not what they are the best at. It's pretty much like if archers decided to charge in melee. It can work if they are better players than enemies, but it's not a good tactic.
The pikeman is sort of more OP when he fights with his mates. I still have to see a thread complaining about pike+shield teamwork, yet it is one of the deadliest combos there is.
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Compromise when WSE is/if implemented Make pikes and longspears really low damage. But give them a "bonus vs horse" where it functions like a "bonus vs shield" for axes. This way they have a niche and will still be very valuable. But they cannot be abused by hitting through team mates into infantry.
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Pikes are not OP, if they were more people would be using them instead of letting cav run our ass over.
Yesterday, i spent an entire round trying to get my team to use pikes/long spears because the enemy was camping a seige flag with 7 robo horses. No one listened (like always in seige) so it was pretty much me vs 7 cavs, the rest of my team were just fodder.
I've fought craftybadger once, and even with high lag he still beat me with his long spear, but only after a protracted, annoying duel.
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I've basically never have had any trouble at all spamming any long spear user, once i get close enough. They can hardly block, even. Using it in 1v1 as cav/pikeman myself... well, against poles/2h i might stand a chance, since i'm pretty experienced with this weapon, but against a decent shielder i can only expect to be spammed.
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then real problem with the "pike" (note not the "long spear") is that you can stood behind your teamate's huscarl shield with your pike sticking through it and thrust at enemies who can't see you, the length of the weapon means you wont hit your team mates and you can be attacked, this is clearly bullshit and looks retarded. Clearly the dev team has not learnt that having super long weapons (loony toons axe / LoC come to mind) really fucks up the game and makes it look like a joke, there is really no need for the pike as the long spear provides adequate anti cav abilities and WILL out-range any lance.
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then real problem with the "pike" (note not the "long spear") is that you can stood behind your teamate's huscarl shield with your pike sticking through it and thrust at enemies who can't see you, the length of the weapon means you wont hit your team mates and you can be attacked, this is clearly bullshit and looks retarded.
Not to mention you can do the same trick with the walls :3
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+1
Just got triple point-blank stabbed by a goddamn pikeman, cause of the shitty spin.
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L2P
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Ah right, I'm supposed to beat a pikeman that can hit faster than me, moves faster than me, and can spin hit me at point blank range, some times dealing over 50 % hp. Ok, thanks for the information!
Looking for someone to teach me, then.
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It's called blocking. HRE has good anti-pikemen. Ask them.
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if you lose to a pikeman in a one on one situation, it means you're bad and the other person is good.
I am a 30-9 str build and i can 2 shot everyone with a stab and even 2 shot unarmored fools with the overhead. I can't maneuver at all and get surrounded a lot because of my low agi and ath. So what do i do? i drop my pike and get out my GLA and one hit people.
In a 1v1 situation, spin thrust is the ONLY thing you really have to worry about. I mean come on, can't you block down?
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if you lose to a pikeman in a one on one situation, it means you're bad and the other person is good.
Harlequin is not a bad player, trust me on that one.
Which leads to the next question:
How the fuck did you lose, Harle? Only kickstab to the face should be able to take you down without you doing something really wrong. :|
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i heard about the 22nd, didn't they ahve pikes in native? its like the exact same mechanics as in CRPG
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Pff, I wonder if you can survive over 1.2 secs in native with a pike without being headshotted thrice.
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Pff, I wonder if you can survive over 1.2 secs in native with a pike without being headshotted thrice.
^^^ this is why i play crpg. Why have those weapons when range spam pretty much requires you to have a shield
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If a pikeman (Pike: Speed 68) can hit faster than you, nothing can help, not even lessons with Chuck Norris.
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I think that with "pike" he means the old one.
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Well, since they need pretty few strength to use it, all the rest goes up to agility, which means higher prof and higher athletics. Even if he doesn't hit faster, most of the times he can jump outside my range while spinstabbing 360000 degrees and killing me. ( I'd add that pikes some times kill horse+horseman in 1 hit, even though it's not really the main topic of the thread ).
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If he can do it with a pike, he can do it with any other weapon as well and way easier (and not just stab). Also, high agi pikers either bounce or do negligible damage, when spinthrusting at facehugging range.
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If he can do it with a pike, he can do it with any other weapon as well and way easier (and not just stab). Also, high agi pikers either bounce or do negligible damage, when spinthrusting at facehugging range.
Quoted for truth, full str pikemen supporting are the real threat
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I think that with "pike" he means the old one.
Well the long spear is also slow with 81 spd.
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There is some weird shit going on with the long pikes. They seem to be so long they don't even clip with the ground. You can completely dominate really close range fights by aiming down at their feet because if you miss and hit the ground it just sails right through. If you tried to poke straight forward it would rebound and your guy in stunned for a second letting them get a hit on you.
Strangely enough I've noticed it depends on the map/ground. Almost all maps let you thrust your pike right through the ground no problem but some have raised cobbled roads that actually make it bounce up.
Spin stabbing is silly but comes with all pokey weapons, aiming at the ground and going right through is the really funky shit pikes can do.