cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on June 15, 2011, 03:56:17 am
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As things stand, cavalry works in cRPG. Within the rather complicated framework of awesomeness and balance that is this game, it fits. It has its counters, and it has its advantages. However, I think that the way in which it fits into the balance puzzle of cRPG is somewhat fucking stupid.
The most successful (melee) cavalry players fight using two items: the heavy lance and the courser. They rely on speed and suprise to defeat their opponents, sneaking up on them like the god damned batman. Ninja batman. I speak from experience, and from information gathered from other players, when I say that this is annoying and homomsexual (in a bad, rapey way, not the rainbow way). There is little satisfaction on the part of the ninja-lancer, who gets his kills not in a straight-up fight, but by lancing people in the back. The victim feels rage-tastic, because in the two seconds he took to pick his nose or finger himself he got killed by a horse swooping out of nowhere. Silently, for horses are silent predators apparently.
The few 1h/shield--or even, gasp, 2h--cavalry players that exist get their kills in a similar way. Though if they're not sneaking up on people, they're probably bump slashing them. That's another issue, though, for another suggestion. One which will also be completely ignored, just saying.
This situation is made even more fucked up by the relative softness of horses, and prices. The ninja style of play, whereby cav swoop out of nowhere and avoid direct confrontation (or, when they have to fight 1 v 1, they stay out of range and poke w/ heavy-fuck lance), is "balanced out" by low HP amongst the only affordable horses in the game. The courser dies in four or five arrow hits. The destrier is, perhaps, a bit stronger, but is still rather fragile. This causes rage on the horseman's part, for obvioius reasons.
Disregard the high-tier horses in this discussion, due to their extreme price. I remember the days of the tank horse, and I don't miss them. Still, high-tier horses are simply too expensive. And the affordable ones, the warhorses, simply suck.
I likely echo the feelings of many cavalry players when I quote my bitching self:
"I very much dislike having to use speed and suprise to kill my enemies, stabbing them in the back without them even HEARING ME. I also dislike having to resort to expensive metal horses in order to close with and kill my virtual enemies fair and square (or try to, given their softness). I dislike the idea that the best horsemen use the heavy lance, ride the courser, and have to fight like absolute pussies. I dislike not being able to charge into the flank of an enemy gaggle-fuck with my comrades in arms and cut bitches. I also really (really) dislike my horse dieing in three or four arrow hits--perhaps alot "realistically", but not in the world of cRPG."
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So, wat do? (Actual suggestion)
Buff/nerf horses, of course: switch up the stats "balance". Increase horses HP, but decrease their speed/maneuver. The speed needs a heavier nerf than the maneuver, but I think maneuver is a bit high. Simple, right?
Decrease the price of high-tier (metal) horses, and SLIGHTLY boost their armor (note that I didn't suggest to boost mid-tier horse armor, just their HP). Keep the plated charger's price, though: it should be a godlike tank of destruction, but expensive.
Boost horse charge, to promote epic charges, of course. (Debateable suggestion)
MAKE HORSES LOUDER, if possible.
Pretty please with cocain on top.
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tl;dr-- Go fuck yourself. Or see the bold stuff, for I am a kind and understanding OP.
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Inb4 innacurate, random, pointless references to history or realism. You may go fuck yourselves--you know who you are. Let me guess your thoughts: "Teh hoplites didn't fight like this, they clearly rode bareback upon great winged unicorns and definitly usded the heavy lance at mach-5 when on campaign in the African steppe".
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I second this notion. Tired of lance-cav being gayer than archers....
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Most good cav gets its kills back stabbing archers and peasants AND killing other cav. This is when th the speed and manouvere are most interesting.
Ibdeed the horse itself should be a threat to players, not just the squigy knight child boy on top.
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would be nice if different horses had different sounds, at the very least an unarmored and armored horse sound.
I'm a heavy horse 1h cav that supports infantry, but sometimes having me around makes them habituate to the sound of horses and they dont pay attention when a racecarcourser comes to lance them
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Inb4 innacurate, random, pointless references to history or realism. You may go fuck yourselves--you know who you are. Let me guess your thoughts: "Teh hoplites didn't fight like this, they clearly rode bareback upon great winged unicorns and definitly usded the heavy lance at mach-5 when on campaign in the African steppe".
You sir made my day.
I support this topic with all of my entirety.
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I second this notion. Tired of lance-cav being gayer than archers....
Keep telling yourself that, Kesh . =)
P.S. i have nothing against cav sounds becoming louder/more noticable.
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Good suggestion. I hate that cav is only useful when gaypoking from behind like a ninja.
I would,
for non-heavy horses:
- decrease maneuver greatly
- decrease speed slightly
- increase armor slightly
- increase hp greatly
for heavy horses:
- decrease price
- reduce maneuver even more
- increase armor
for charge mechanics:
- decrease couch damage
- increase charge damage on non-heavy horses
- ONLY polearms longer than 200 stop horses, others only slow them down
That way we could actually do a proper cavalry charge.
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im actually quite skilled at stabbing people face to face, they just cant A) have a pike with pole arm WPF(ill charge a 2h with a pike)B) be a jump slash WHORE or C) be a str build backed next to a wall so that when my lance/couch doesnt kill them in there plate they can just hack me to bit along with w/e horse im riding.
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Good suggestion. I hate that cav is only useful when gaypoking from behind like a ninja.
I would,
for non-heavy horses:
- decrease manuever greatly
- decrease speed slightly
- increase armor slightly
- increase hp greatly
for heavy horses:
- decrease price
- reduce manuever even more
- increase armor
for charge mechanics:
- decrease couch damage
- increase charge damage on non-heavy horses
- ONLY polearms longer than 200 stop horses, others only slow them down
That way we could actually do a proper cavalry charge.
+1. Sounds good.
would be nice if different horses had different sounds, at the very least an unarmored and armored horse sound.
I'm a heavy horse 1h cav that supports infantry, but sometimes having me around makes them habituate to the sound of horses and they dont pay attention when a racecarcourser comes to lance them
+1. That would be really nice.
I second this notion. Tired of lance-cav being gayer than archers....
So you disagree that the humiliation process in 1v1 situations between a melee player and a ranged where the ranged will alwys win is less lame than a situation between a lancer and any kind of melee player where any one can win?
Ranged will always be more lame than melee simply because a melee player can not counter it.
As the victim you have two options:
- Extend the humilation process by dodging the projectiles.
- Stand still and hope you get headshotted.
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Boost horse charge, to promote epic charges, of course. (Debateable suggestion)
MAKE HORSES LOUDER, if possible.
If armor is increased, charge needs to go WAY down. With speed it means knockdown anyway, but the bowling-horse running through a group the size of a football team and flinging all of them every which way is unacceptable.
Horses need a bell hanging from their necks like cows. The ding ding ding should be loud, annoying and gay enough to drive the rider insane.
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while i agree with much of this thread, I think not all horses should be slowed down.
I agree with most of the stuff but the courser, I would either leave it, as the ninja lancer playstyle is still a valid playstyle.
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while i agree with much of this thread, I think not all horses should be slowed down.
I agree with most of the stuff but the courser, I would either leave it, as the ninja lancer playstyle is still a valid playstyle.
Agree, but the maneuver should be reduced at higher speeds then, or overall.
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OR!!!leave cavalry alone :shock:
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No.
I would even go as far as to suggest a lance damage nerf and an increased downtime for bumped people (depending on the weight of armor).
Less killing, more bumping!
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i support this tpic and want to defend it against any donkey attack that is coming to destroy this topic!
but seriously, courser should keep it's speed but nerf the maneuver hard, so if the courser rider disides to attack someone he can't walk past the guy when he's on to him. this would make me a lot more happy.
heavy horses shouldn't be made cheaper(in medieval times a warhorse would cost as much as a villa does now), just make the repairs less(dunno if the price has to be less to do so). and i mean, the fastest horse bread would also cost a lot more than a car does nowadays. and yes, give heavy horses more charge, less manuever(they were bred to not look just charge a bunch of guys down while the knight on their back sliced every one of them down, they often also had the sides of their eyes covered and the front covered in linen or something so they would just be able to see a tree ahead of them but that they wouldn't get scared, same goes for the ears.
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The best cav I know use the arabian warhorse, not the courser. I know, because I use an arabian :twisted:
Seriously though, the better cavalry players are more than capable of killing anyone with a weapon shorter than theirs, be it a polearm or a dagger. They just prefer not to, as they risk their horse getting killed.
A headshot to a courser when running into the arrow will insta kill it. Takes just 2 body shots to kill a courser that way. Only when they're riding away from the archer it takes more arrows.
As a 1h/cav, I would love to have a horse with higher hp/armour and a bit less manouverability.
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Aren't horse archers enough for a "great" cavalry nerf? :?
I mean Knights are badly challenged when they have a HA on their ass shooting like a machine gun. Why should they need a nerf?
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Reducing maneuver would partly fix that, atleast they wouldn't be able to get really close to you, put an arrow in your ass and then turn in 0,2 sec to ride away.
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I agree with the original poster. Instead of being a large squashy 1-hit-kill appearing from nowhere ninja why not put some fear into the opponents eyes. If I see a horse charging at me (unless I have a pike) I should be trying to avoid it at all costs or at least put my shield up, not jump-slash instakill it in mid air. Even archers are not afraid of horses now, unless you are sitting on a pile of gold driving one of the 60,000 gold worth elephants there is no way you can charge people IF they know where you are coming from.
Horses are the most expensive items in game, why do we need to hide them and attack from the shadows ? :?
I would,
for non-heavy horses:
- decrease maneuver greatly
- decrease speed slightly
- increase armor slightly
- increase hp greatly
for heavy horses:
- decrease price
- reduce maneuver even more
- increase armor
for charge mechanics:
- decrease couch damage
- increase charge damage on non-heavy horses
- ONLY polearms longer than 200 stop horses, others only slow them down
That way we could actually do a proper cavalry charge.
+1 from the bottom of my heart.
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I think the issue is not about cav should be burfed (nice word btw. :D
The biggest problem about cav is, that too many archers dont focus enough on them. They rather shoot people to get kills, instead of helping their team and shoot the cav.
So archers, do your job and shoot cav first.
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FINE every one keeps whining, but if you remove the ability for Cavalry to turn away, REMOVE JUMP SLASH, a guy in full plate jumping over me and my horse then cutting me in two with a slice of his two-handed sword... what anime am i in?
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Good suggestion. I hate that cav is only useful when gaypoking from behind like a ninja.
I would,
for non-heavy horses:
- decrease maneuver greatly
- decrease speed slightly
- increase armor slightly
- increase hp greatly
for heavy horses:
- decrease price
- reduce maneuver even more
- increase armor
for charge mechanics:
- decrease couch damage
- increase charge damage on non-heavy horses
- ONLY polearms longer than 200 stop horses, others only slow them down
That way we could actually do a proper cavalry charge.
They should increase couch damage or sweeping field, and decrease ninja stabbing damage.
I am also sick of people lolslash/jumpslashing. It looks so stupid and unrealistic. I'd like to see it removed or made harder so only the true masters could accomplish it.. I wouldn't mind so much then.
It would also Make sense if pole weapons over 200 reach gaining some sort of defensive position animation where the foot is placed upon the shaft, and held in place. This could decrease movement speed, but stop/kill horses.
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just unable the abilaty to jump and attack, this would fix a lot, inc. jumpshots :wink:
and this suggestion would also bring more 1h cav!(because close cav combat is more rewardingdue to heavier horses, so less chance of your horse getting killed when you slah someone, and more charge damage)
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FINE every one keeps whining, but if you remove the ability for Cavalry to turn away, REMOVE JUMP SLASH, a guy in full plate jumping over me and my horse then cutting me in two with a slice of his two-handed sword... what anime am i in?
+1
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Agree that jumpslashes should be nerfed/removed.
Also agree with Dashing, ninja stab damage should be nerfed, to prevent some 1hit kills on armored people.
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sweet idea to stop having a chopstick stop a charger : D
my thoughts on this:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,8409.0.html
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Its not that we can't afford them but about the way we use horses at the moment. Try charging a group of infantry that see you coming in a warhorse and you will die instantly, they don't even need pikes, just jump-slash you to death.
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Why winning about jumpslash ? :shock:
I love when people jumpslash, since they actually can't block down, and thus get automatically thrust in the body.
Overall, if only we could add horses some armor and hp "only" for ranged weapons, it would be great.
It's irritating as a pikeman to stop a horse with a good thrust. Then thrust it again in the head (but strangely the rider blocks that o_O ) and thrust it while it flee. And yes, if it's a courser, it's still alive.
What's also great is how you can get killed AFTER having stopped the horse. Even by a 1h sword, since thoses perfect weapon for gay bumpslash manage to hit you even when they don't reach you.
The best example is the thrust with the 1h weapon, in front of you. You bump someone, and thrust, and you actually hit the guy while he's falling on the ground, under your horse. Incredible.
Back to op. I feel the destrier as enough life already, but i wouldn't mind if others unarmored horses had more hp, less speed, less maneuver, more charge, and a bit more price (for the sake of diversity, see burf topic).
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Why winning about jumpslash ? :shock:
It is just a strange way to counter a horse charge. In thoughts of a 2h user: "There is a half a tonne warhorse charging at me at full speed ! Forget about that pike! Let me jump and cut him in two in midair!" Not only it looks stupid but it makes no sense at all.
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these changes would make the destrier pointless, at the moment it cuts the fine line between maneuverability and health, if these changes took place it would need to gain health else no-one would use it for being too slow and being so hard to control.
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I second this notion. Tired of lance-cav being gayer than archers....
Guess what, you are gayer than both! :lol:
Anyways, I don't see any problems with the current cavalry, except for a few points:
- Lancers are best on light horses, because they don't need armour and hp, but the ability to avoid enemies, hit and get the fuck out of there, mostly because of their slow weapons.
- Onehander/2hander cav are best on armoured horses, because they need more armour/hp to bumpslash people.
- The courser needs a small armour nerf, it''s a little bit too sturdy right now imo.
Things that are ok:
- Arabian is really quishy and not OP as before. 2 arrows kill my well bred one, I'd say that is ok. Melee strikes usually dehorse me.
- Lancers as a class are ok, why? They have slow weapons, can't take shields unless they take 1 slot weapons and thus are quite vulnerable and not able to do lightning fast u-turn strikes anymore.
To change the situation, I propose, like I did before, to buff armoured horses a tiny bit and reduce their upkeep. We'd see a little bit more 1hander/2hander cav instead of lancers.
Big nerfs as some propose are out of the question, people who propose those are just not used to seeing a normal amount of cavalry players on servers. I'd say the only classes which need big changes atm are throwers(buff), xbowers(do way too much damage) and archers(too accurate with 9 pd longbow builds).
~Magikarp
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if the upkeep of armored horses is just as much as a courser's or arab's, than more onehanded cav will be introduced. so more cav diversatie and less ninja lancers. this would stop the whining and make me happy being 1handed cav! :D, i love armored horses and i wanna ride them like a beast :shock:. armored horses aren't accesable atm and that should be changed. you should be able to have equipment like this:
large warhorse
mail with surcoat
long arming sword
knightly heater shield
mail mittens
mail chausses
bascinet
ofc. with this gear you shouldn't be able make a lot of profit. but it should be do-able
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if the upkeep of armored horses is just as much as a courser's or arab's, than more onehanded cav will be introduced. so more cav diversatie and less ninja lancers. this would stop the whining and make me happy being 1handed cav! :D, i love armored horses and i wanna ride them like a beast :shock:. armored horses aren't accesable atm and that should be changed. you should be able to have equipment like this:
large warhorse
mail with surcoat
long arming sword
knightly heater shield
mail mittens
mail chausses
bascinet
ofc. with this gear you shouldn't be able make a lot of profit. but it should be do-able
+1, the large warhorse sucks compared to Cataphract atm though, it needs more speed.
Biggest problem with cav is upkeep, why go for a class that has more upkeep, leaving your cash drained while the stats aren''t worth it?
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i think cata needs to keep more man. but give large warhorse more spped and almost even armor
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Horses could use a little maneuver nerf.
And from what I've seen, the people who get the most kills (not best cav) don't use the same horse.
In NA high kills are achieved by the courser
In EU (from my moderate time playing there) the Arabian warhorse is the main horse.
You an ask yourselfs, what's the bigger problem, the coursers speed or the arabians turning ability?
Also nerfing speed on horses and increasing armor and hp cancel themselves out. Horses use speed to dodge arrows and get out of the way. Making them slower makes them easier targets.
Therefore you've done nothing to balance horses.
Weeee
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I agree with this. But don't decrease speed on armoured horses, they're already shit slow. Just decrease maneuver and add a little more HP and armour. The speed is perfect as it is.
Edit: Also, the charger should have the most charge damage of all the Armoured horses. (maybe the same as a plated.)
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Also nerfing speed on horses and increasing armor and hp cancel themselves out. Horses use speed to dodge arrows and get out of the way. Making them slower makes them easier targets.
Therefore you've done nothing to balance horses.
The point is not to 'balance' horses but as the title of the thread suggests BURF them or simply said change their statistics accordingly so their main role changes from stealthy batman ninjas to chargers. I would love to fight alongside infantry in my charger, live a little bit longer and die in glory of the battle instead of sneaking on poor peasants and archers from behind. Long story short there should be different types of horses for different roles, fast ones with poor HP for ninja action behind enemy lines and warhorses with stronger armor and hp but very poor maneuver. Right now you can only play the former unless you can afford the elephant.
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agreed, the only cav you can be atm is ninja. and that's also the reason why there aren't so much onhanded cav, because onehanded cav isn't the sneaky ninja style. because they need a way to get up-close to infantrie and smash them. so not would this idea give more variatie to lancers, but also to the different weapon kinds used from horseback. another reason to add this idea.
BTW, when will the next patch be? in august, september, okt, nov, next year!(i know there isn't a date set, but just an estimaition)
thx
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This isn't really true anymore,
With the speed nerf, the best lancers use a Light or Normal Lance and ride a Champion Arabian Warhorse.
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Just to question things. Does anyone remember preupkeep/heavy horse nerf when they were everywhere and bump slashed/bump killed everyone. I feel that by boost HP/Armour of medium horses, even with a manoeuvre reduction, you would simply return us to this.
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Just to question things. Does anyone remember preupkeep/heavy horse nerf when they were everywhere and bump slashed/bump killed everyone. I feel that by boost HP/Armour of medium horses, even with a manoeuvre reduction, you would simply return us to this.
So for you, there's nothing balanced inbetween ? I bet you just want your loved JetPony untouched.
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i don't ride the courser, i ride the palfrey(1) at X1-2, the destrier(1) at X3-4 and a charger(3) at x5. I only ride the charger at x5 because if it breaks and the round took four minutes i only lost 1800 gold rather than 2800, unless my armor break then i lost another 970. That is the reason i heir loomed the charger, if I'm playing 2.8k for repair, its going to be the best it can be for repair. Now why did i state this? to point out im not a ninja cavalry, most my kill are from the front, i do kill people from behind but more often than not they are running from me trying to get better ground. i still don't under stand why people back stab when you can out reach then from the front....
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To make everyone happy, I propose this:
1. Heavier horses should gain speed and hp, and lose maneuver and upkeep (by a proportional amount).
2. Lighter horses in general, and the people who still like to use light cavalry tactics (which is completely ok imo) and horse archery would still have viable horses to do so.
The problem with heavier/armoured horses is with the severe weakness in comparison to lighter horses. There is a major imbalance. Heavy Cavalry/Knights are almost non-existent in a game that was made for them (hence Mount&Blade).
Most of the lower horses like Palfrey or Rouncey do their job well. Arabian, Steppe, and Desert are a bit too maneuverable. Courser has bad-average maneuver, bad being when at full speed, average being when slowed or not moving. Destrier simply isn't worth it due to the ugly reddish color (which is easily spotted), the average maneuver, only around 20 extra hit points, and the doubled cost. Rouncey has comparable stats to this horse, and costs less than half. All Warhorses are way too slow, and are too maneuverable. Their cost outweighs the awesome effect, and they usually die faster due to extreme slowness. Putting on a 60-100 lb coat of mail (which is evenly distributed) on a 840 to 1,200 lb warhorse, especially bred for war, should not slow it down that much.
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To make everyone happy, I propose this:
1. Heavier horses should gain speed and hp, and lose maneuver and upkeep (by a proportional amount).
2. Lighter horses in general, and the people who still like to use light cavalry tactics (which is completely ok imo) and horse archery would still have viable horses to do so.
The problem with heavier/armoured horses is with the severe weakness in comparison to lighter horses. There is a major imbalance. Heavy Cavalry/Knights are almost non-existent in a game that was made for them (hence Mount&Blade).
Most of the lower horses like Palfrey or Rouncey do their job well. Arabian, Steppe, and Desert are a bit too maneuverable. Courser has bad-average maneuver, bad being when at full speed, average being when slowed or not moving. Destrier simply isn't worth it due to the ugly reddish color (which is easily spotted), the average maneuver, only around 20 extra hit points, and the doubled cost. Rouncey has comparable stats to this horse, and costs less than half. All Warhorses are way too slow, and are too maneuverable. Their cost outweighs the awesome effect, and they usually die faster due to extreme slowness. Putting on a 60-100 lb coat of mail (which is evenly distributed) on a 840 to 1,200 lb warhorse, especially bred for war, should not slow it down that much.
+1 Awesome for you.
You see, this man speaks sense! People on this game for some reason think that armour weighs as much as giant iron girder or something. And like I said earlier, charger need moar charge! :twisted:
The destrier should have much more HP and more charge damage, and a cost reduction.
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agreed, the only cav you can be atm is ninja. and that's also the reason why there aren't so much onhanded cav, because onehanded cav isn't the sneaky ninja style. because they need a way to get up-close to infantrie and smash them. so not would this idea give more variatie to lancers, but also to the different weapon kinds used from horseback. another reason to add this idea.
No, the only cav you WANT to be is ninja.
Well, let's start this by saying you can never expect to kill a good footman in a 1vs1 duel as heavy cav (well, sometimes you do but chances are it's you who are dead whenever you try) - let's go back to that later.
You can easily backstab with heavy horses (or destrier & whatever light horses are turned into with more health and less maneuver, too). Before the upkeep patch everyone used cataphracts etc. and they just ninjad around the map all the same, with two differences, they'd be slower but they'd live longer. There is exactly one player I remember doing actual charges and with great effect that is Phazh. The biggest problem with that nowadays is that the masses of fast horses will beat you to the unaware prey or friendly fire couch lance into the side of your horse.
People choose this because with every other horse tactic that works you have to give up your expectations to make many kills easily and you always have the choice to just ride off and backstab for better scores. The heavy horse tactics you can employ to good success revolve largely around pulling aggression on to you for tactical benefit of teammates and taking out enemies while they are engaged by infantry.
For example, the day before yesterday I went into siege and there was no castle (just a flag on the open field). So, on defense I loaded out with horse and whenever I saw a group of attackers going for the flag I'd charge them, turning away when they poked at me and bumping when they didn't. The result, they got split up and arrived at the flag one by one against 5 defenders there all the time. I ended the map with hardly any kills, but full multiplier being switched all the time. Lucky, maybe but there's no denying that 5vs1 5 times is better than 5vs5 if your team is competent.
Or you see an ally ganged so you ride over and engage enemies not with the intent to kill them, but to give him more breathing space. Three enemies dead and the ally alive is better than the ally dead and you backstabbing three people in the same time. If he dies you just ride off, as a 2h player you'll often just arrive in time to see him die and get ganged yourself.
Or you let someone engage a good footman, and then bump or bumpslash him.
Or charge into a group and cause mayhem so your allies can kill the footmen who don't even know which direction to face if they aren't on the ground anyway.
Well, that's not saying these tactics always work or are easy (heck I don't know how many times I've bumped an ally I was just trying to help against superior enemy, or when I tried to killsteal from a 3vs1 :P). But if you prevent a good 2h or shielder who can make 6 kills this round flanking into the group and get him dead before he makes a single kill that's gotta be worth something, even if you end the round with 1 or even 0 kills (and nothing prevents you to get a couple of backstabs before and after that).
As to winning 1vs1 from horse. Go on the duel server and try it, your only chance is by riding away as soon as you have spent your attack or he steps back and stabs at your horse while you can't reach him. But if you expect to win by charging, riding away and charging again, that's kind of broken for the footman because he can always just defend, wait until you come back and defend again. If you want to duel him 1vs1, dismount.
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so this class isn't very good as an anti-cav cav :wink: but i still would choose it over anything
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fuck it