cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Soldier_of_God on June 06, 2011, 08:19:51 pm
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Lets save the horses, since they cant save themselves; we have to make these jackasses realize that its all messed up! this is why donkeys aren't allowed to code :P
Jest aside, horses are crap right now, and we need to fix it so that everyone is happy; i got some pre-baked solutions for everyone based on the assumption that this is true:
-horses are underpowered for various reasons, like cost, health, armor, and the ratio of that on horses.
-infantry don't like horses plowing into them, and are vehemently against a buff
-archers like 1-2 shotting horses as it is halfway across the map
-the time of the knight has almost drawn to a close :(
1.) decrease speed/maneuverability, add health.
the reasoning behind this is that if you take away speed of horses, they are somewhat easier to predict and deal with, but at the same time that in this case it should not be an easy 1 or 2 hit kill, and that it should take 2 or 3 people to take down a determined horseman; not a lone ninja with a longbow and a spiked mace.
take 2-5 speed and 2-5 maneuver, and add 30-60 health depending on how many points are taken.
2.) decrease armor, decrease cost/ balance to armored horse cost
if there are going to be 1-2 hit archer potshots for balance sake, at least make it so we dont have to pay out the wazoo for a practically naked, low health horse.
horses are expensive, and so here is what i propose; decrease the amount of armor that all unarmored horses have to 0 (logic), and decrease their cost by half.
horses that have armor keep their armor, but cost 10,000 gold less.
3.) +20 charge damage, half speed reduction for charge.
as it is, unless you have a plated charger, you will not see much results, and even then you may hit 3 people in a group. logically, if you were charging through a disorganized mob, you would not only do more damage, but crash through many more people
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11962905 - plainclothes british students know the fear of being trampled, and disperse accordingly.
4.) make a suggestion
5.) Marathon's idea
I've thought a lot about re-working horses, and testing in some mods how they play in single player, etc.
And I've also noticed that speed can stay the same if maneuverability is lowered greatly. It forces cavalry to take more prominent lines, and to slow down if they want to turn sharp corners like in towns. It fixes every stupid issue complaint that people have.
So, I figured something like this works really really well and gives cav a stronger actual cav roll, but has no stupid shit happen.
*leave speed mostly untouched
*Greatly reduce maneuverability
*add more charge damage
*Add more health and armor
*leave their attack/animations/etc alone. The maneuverability will fix any of the stupid issues involving lancemen just sitting outside someone's reach until they are engaged by somebody.
So, This will make horses more resilient, more capable of doing cavalry charges like cavalry actually did. They would take a couple more hits to go down. They would fill their cavalry roll better. Cav would enjoy it, infantry would enjoy it. Archers Won't care either way, it may take them 2 more arrows to bring down a horse, but they won't get circle-lanced, bump lanced, etc, all day.
This is coming from a mostly infantry player, although I've played cav quite a bit as well. You can't judge something you haven't played!
6.) Its fine
congratulations for not participating in a thread designed to come up with ideas and solutions to make everyone happy, instead you are going to argue that horses are fine, or counter poll. go ahead then.
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Ah, I see.
You haven't played on the EU servers lately, have you?
Eventhough horses get killed by 1-3 arrows, most cav have no trouble keeping a very positive kd ratio.
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I voted 4. My suggestion is to add a "It's fine as it is now." option in the poll.
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Horses are fine, they just have a tad to much maneuver. If you cant do well on a horse, then you should rethink your class 8-)
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I've thought a lot about re-working horses, and testing in some mods how they play in single player, etc.
And I've also noticed that speed can stay the same if maneuverability is lowered greatly. It forces cavalry to take more prominent lines, and to slow down if they want to turn sharp corners like in towns. It fixes every stupid issue complaint that people have.
So, I figured something like this works really really well and gives cav a stronger actual cav roll, but has no stupid shit happen.
*leave speed mostly untouched
*Greatly reduce maneuverability
*add more charge damage
*Add more health and armor
*leave their attack/animations/etc alone. The maneuverability will fix any of the stupid issues involving lancemen just sitting outside someone's reach until they are engaged by somebody.
So, This will make horses more resilient, more capable of doing cavalry charges like cavalry actually did. They would take a couple more hits to go down. They would fill their cavalry roll better. Cav would enjoy it, infantry would enjoy it. Archers Won't care either way, it may take them 2 more arrows to bring down a horse, but they won't get circle-lanced, bump lanced, etc, all day.
This is coming from a mostly infantry player, although I've played cav quite a bit as well. You can't judge something you haven't played!
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prices definitely need to be readjusted so courser/arab/plated all cost the same, as they're the best for their chosen task.
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I agree with Marathon, lower maneouverability and increase HP/bump damage. I played during the elephant wars, and frankly, it was kind of fun as infantry. If horses were restored to the values they had back then, but nerfed in maneouverability, all would be fine IMO. Upkeep already prevents massive amounts of elephant riders anyway.
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Horses certainly do work as they currently are, within the grand scheme of cRPG game mechanics and balance and shit. However, I do not want to ride a horse that's "fine as it is now", the entire idea of cavalry in this game is mildly fucked up: they're high-speed, sneaky ninjas made of paper (wet paper). The idea of cavalry is faulty, but as others have stated, the actual implementation sort of works as things stand.
Fast, maneuverable horses with low health have their counters and strengths. They are neither overpowered, nor are they weak... they are balanced, and fit well in cRPG. As two people have stated, it's more than possible to do well as a cavalry player (for those of you who are confused: the arguement isn't that cavalry can't get a positive k/d ratio. We all know that's not true. You're retarted if you think cav can't get kills. You may also be retarted for thinking that other people think that cav can't get kills.)
Of course, I think horses being like this is fucking stupid. I very much dislike the fact that cavalry players need to rely on suprise and a lance longer than their enemy's weapon in order to get kills (and get kills they do). I think many other cavalry players would agree with me that it would be better if they had the option to charge into the thick of shit, actually holding their own against other players in melee. Wouldn't epic cavalry charges be better than what we have now? Wouldn't two or three horsemen slamming into the flank of an enemy gaggle-fuck, hacking with swords and stabbing with lances, and NOT DIEING INSTANTLY be better than what we have now? Wouldn't it be great to not have to shy away from the actual battle, resolving instead to target archers or people on the flanks?
I think that Marathon's suggesetion of increasing armor/hp/charge and reducing maneuver is a good one. Maneuver wouldn't be gone, of course, instead--as he said--horses would have to slow down in order to maneuver. In a fight, horses would be moving more slowly, and thus would be capable of maneuvering about. Horses would be more survivable, and perhaps we might even be able to fight! The speed and charge would allow for cavalry charges into blocks of baddies. The speed staying nearly the same also makes sense, since horses, being horses, are fast and like running about.
tl;dr: read the bold shit.
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if so, the "poopstick stops plated charger" thingy would have to be changed. also, remember that actually our heavy cav can do just what u are suggesting, they would only need a speed buff with an increased speed-manuver-penalty. however having light horses charge into formations is semi gay because its quite realistic that they would get killed like they are getting killed atm.
just my 2cents oc
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-horses are underpowered for various reasons
bwahahahahahaahahah
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The poopstick situation could be changed if spears would have to be prepared before being able to rear horses. Maybe x-mode could be used for that. Ideally, it should also reflect that in the animation, by making the spearman put the butt of the spear on the ground and standing on it, like this:
http://iloapp.bagotsregiment.org.uk/gallery/gallery?MobileAlbum&album=0&image=15
Of course, it should not be possible to rear horses in one-handed spear mode.
Also, I feel that cav should be good. They were the tanks of the middle ages. I hate how everything must be balanced to mediocrity. Make them powerful, but slow to turn at full speed. Introduce x-mode for spears that rears horses and adds damage bonus.
I am infantry, BTW.
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Horses are fine, they just have a tad to much maneuver. If you cant do well on a horse, then you should rethink your class 8-)
They're not fine since they have this tad too much maneuver. :P
I voted for option 1, even if my MW strongbow archer alts needs 2 arrows for an arabian horse, and 4-5 for a courser already.
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They're not fine since they have this tad too much maneuver. :P
I voted for option 1, even if my MW strongbow archer alts needs 2 arrows for an arabian horse, and 4-5 for a courser already.
4-5 if that horse is galloping away from you at full speed or at long range.
I feel as though my unloomed courser works fine, as even with 7 riding my horse tends to run into things it doesnt like, i.e. arrows, bolts, and pointy sticks. MY xbow alt also has little trouble dealing with cavalry, even when he dons armor and forsakes his xbow in favor of a decent 2h. The high maneuver horses, on the other hand, are pretty ridiculous. Its ridiculously easy to dodge and lance on a frickin steppe horse on my cav character, and my xbower cant deal with arabian warhorses 1v1 despite using a miaodao, 2.5 weight fur clothing, and 8 athletics. High maneuver horses need a maneuver nerf and a health buff (but leave their armor ratings alone)
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I've thought a lot about re-working horses, and testing in some mods how they play in single player, etc.
And I've also noticed that speed can stay the same if maneuverability is lowered greatly. It forces cavalry to take more prominent lines, and to slow down if they want to turn sharp corners like in towns. It fixes every stupid issue complaint that people have.
So, I figured something like this works really really well and gives cav a stronger actual cav roll, but has no stupid shit happen.
*leave speed mostly untouched
*Greatly reduce maneuverability
*add more charge damage
*Add more health and armor
*leave their attack/animations/etc alone. The maneuverability will fix any of the stupid issues involving lancemen just sitting outside someone's reach until they are engaged by somebody.
So, This will make horses more resilient, more capable of doing cavalry charges like cavalry actually did. They would take a couple more hits to go down. They would fill their cavalry roll better. Cav would enjoy it, infantry would enjoy it. Archers Won't care either way, it may take them 2 more arrows to bring down a horse, but they won't get circle-lanced, bump lanced, etc, all day.
This is coming from a mostly infantry player, although I've played cav quite a bit as well. You can't judge something you haven't played!
Please start your own thread with this suggestion as this is one of the best ideas so far. +50 Hp/+5 armor/-15 maneuver is what I suggest. Maybe you could put the numbers you were thinking of when you start your onw thread.
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im so happy that guy gets kicked what a fuck
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So unarmored horses should be forced into the same role as armored warhorses, but with less armor and health, right? Of course, because what would we do if archers couldnt draw their bows and leap clear out of the way of a charging horse and lance? Granted the high maneuver horses have ridiculous circle lance capabilities, but leave my unloomed courser alone. As it is, I already get dehorsed and shot by jumping archers every time I miss a lance or fail to 1 hit kill.
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I've thought a lot about re-working horses, and testing in some mods how they play in single player, etc.
And I've also noticed that speed can stay the same if maneuverability is lowered greatly. It forces cavalry to take more prominent lines, and to slow down if they want to turn sharp corners like in towns. It fixes every stupid issue complaint that people have.
So, I figured something like this works really really well and gives cav a stronger actual cav roll, but has no stupid shit happen.
*leave speed mostly untouched
*Greatly reduce maneuverability
*add more charge damage
*Add more health and armor
*leave their attack/animations/etc alone. The maneuverability will fix any of the stupid issues involving lancemen just sitting outside someone's reach until they are engaged by somebody.
So, This will make horses more resilient, more capable of doing cavalry charges like cavalry actually did. They would take a couple more hits to go down. They would fill their cavalry roll better. Cav would enjoy it, infantry would enjoy it. Archers Won't care either way, it may take them 2 more arrows to bring down a horse, but they won't get circle-lanced, bump lanced, etc, all day.
This is coming from a mostly infantry player, although I've played cav quite a bit as well. You can't judge something you haven't played!
From a cavalry player, a big (and you'll see I don't lie), big
YES
I expect this could also help balance internal cavalry types. Nerfing HA (more arrows to kill honest people's horses, less maneuvrability) and trololo warp lancers, buffing great lance and 1h cav.
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if horses receive any maneuverability nerf, than there needs to be a coinciding nerf to loljumpslashing and other stupid infantry antics like slashing or thrusting thru both the horse and player killing them both with 1 hit
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I've thought a lot about re-working horses, and testing in some mods how they play in single player, etc.
And I've also noticed that speed can stay the same if maneuverability is lowered greatly. It forces cavalry to take more prominent lines, and to slow down if they want to turn sharp corners like in towns. It fixes every stupid issue complaint that people have.
So, I figured something like this works really really well and gives cav a stronger actual cav roll, but has no stupid shit happen.
*leave speed mostly untouched
*Greatly reduce maneuverability
*add more charge damage
*Add more health and armor
*leave their attack/animations/etc alone. The maneuverability will fix any of the stupid issues involving lancemen just sitting outside someone's reach until they are engaged by somebody.
So, This will make horses more resilient, more capable of doing cavalry charges like cavalry actually did. They would take a couple more hits to go down. They would fill their cavalry roll better. Cav would enjoy it, infantry would enjoy it. Archers Won't care either way, it may take them 2 more arrows to bring down a horse, but they won't get circle-lanced, bump lanced, etc, all day.
This is coming from a mostly infantry player, although I've played cav quite a bit as well. You can't judge something you haven't played!
+1 and my first born child to you sir. This is all true, interesting, and certainly worth testing.
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Please just increase the sound of hooves... Fast horses are right next to you before you know it.
DEBUFFS COMPLETED
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Please just increase the sound of hooves... Fast horses are right next to you before you know it.
DEBUFFS COMPLETED
I wish this was implemented already. On foot I find myself doing full 360 degree turns every few seconds just to make sure cav isnt silently right behind me. Of course this is literally the only advantage and attack method that cavalry would have if maneuver got seriously nerfed, but lets not go that far pretty please. Cavalry charges are boring as hell, its really hard holding W and simultaneously praying that pikes, arrows, and bolts arent about to fuck your shit up.
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if horses receive any maneuverability nerf, than there needs to be a coinciding nerf to loljumpslashing and other stupid infantry antics like slashing or thrusting thru both the horse and player killing them both with 1 hit
If you are the victim of either one of these infantry tactics, it is because you are a horrible cavalry player and need to just quit and find a different class to play :idea:
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The deadliest cavalry I've seen so far are the ones that can evade arrows.
:arrow: Heavy Cavalry is useless in cRPG in my opinion, strategus I'm not sure.
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im so happy that guy gets kicked what a fuck
well obviously this man got some personal issues and tries to unload his frustration on a horse
and yeah was also happy he got ktfo, or maybe even killed ;]
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such crap ideas, i say NO for all suggestions.
or, i say yes, but in return,
you have to give me saber throwing and force pushing skill.
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well obviously this man got some personal issues and tries to unload his frustration on a horse
and yeah was also happy he got ktfo, or maybe even killed ;]
I suggest you stop the trolling... We all know you are completly biaised and will cry a river if you loose your champion Chaparral 2J, no need to prove it even further.
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I wish this was implemented already. On foot I find myself doing full 360 degree turns every few seconds just to make sure cav isnt silently right behind me. Of course this is literally the only advantage and attack method that cavalry would have if maneuver got seriously nerfed, but lets not go that far pretty please. Cavalry charges are boring as hell, its really hard holding W and simultaneously praying that pikes, arrows, and bolts arent about to fuck your shit up.
+1
Eh, the sarranid might still turn out ok, but courser, destrier and the armored horses with a lot less maneuver might as well roll dice if they run into a pike (wich is still able to stop horses with totally unrealistic 180° spinjumpstabs) or a crossbow headshot. I don't know who exactly benefits by compensating that with extra hp/charge damage, the enemies that get under your hooves for unblockable death probably not, neither the people your horse runs over when you are long dead (even now my horses often outlife me if I charge into groups) or the allies you can't avoid for your life.
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+1
Eh, the sarranid might still turn out ok, but courser, destrier and the armored horses with a lot less maneuver might as well roll dice if they run into a pike (wich is still able to stop horses with totally unrealistic 180° spinjumpstabs) or a crossbow headshot. I don't know who exactly benefits by compensating that with extra hp/charge damage, the enemies that get under your hooves for unblockable death probably not, neither the people your horse runs over when you are long dead (even now my horses often outlife me if I charge into groups) or the allies you can't avoid for your life.
Solution : learn to play cav and plan charges ahead, not like people that got used to the OP maneuver horses we got now.
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If you can't avoid allies you are doing something wrong as cavalry. If so; You are making poor decisions, and that has absolutely nothing to do with maneuver. I very rarely bump team infantry when I am cavalry. I am considerate, as I have played mostly infantry and it sucks to be bumped by your teammates.
horses with a lot less maneuver might as well roll dice if they run into a pike
They Might roll dice if they run into their hard-counter supposed-to-kill-horses only-thing-a-horseman-worries-about.
That sounds like an issue. You shouldn't be rounding blind corners at full speed on a horse either. That is the only scenario you won't see a pikeman in time to evade it. Pikeman are defensive counters, they can't GO kill you -- you have to go TO them. You have to willingly choose to die to a pike as cav, whether that be you gambling by turning corners at full speed, or charging straight at one thinking you are invincible.
I'm sorry, if you fucked up that bad you should be impaled on that pike if you don't rear your horse in time.
Yeah. You can be full speed and stop your horse by rearing it in this game. Sorry if any of you have been crutching on maneuver so hard you've never had to do it even once.
pretty sure default it is ctrl+J.
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If you can't avoid allies you are doing something wrong as cavalry. If so; You are making poor decisions, and that has absolutely nothing to do with maneuver. I very rarely bump team infantry when I am cavalry. I am considerate, as I have played mostly infantry and it sucks to be bumped by your teammates.
They Might roll dice if they run into their hard-counter supposed-to-kill-horses only-thing-a-horseman-worries-about.
That sounds like an issue. You shouldn't be rounding blind corners at full speed on a horse either. That is the only scenario you won't see a pikeman in time to evade it. Pikeman are defensive counters, they can't GO kill you -- you have to go TO them. You have to willingly choose to die to a pike as cav, whether that be you gambling by turning corners at full speed, or charging straight at one thinking you are invincible.
I'm sorry, if you fucked up that bad you should be impaled on that pike if you don't rear your horse in time.
Yeah. You can be full speed and stop your horse by rearing it in this game. Sorry if any of you have been crutching on maneuver so hard you've never had to do it even once.
pretty sure default it is ctrl+J.
Listen to this man.
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Cavalry is definitely in a good spot for public play right now. Cav tops K/D almost every round on any non-city map. On those maps, the winner is usually decided by which team gets Cav superiority first. As a polearm cav/infantry hybrid, there's no doubt that I'm far deadlier on a horse than without one.
The real question is what will happen when Strategus gets up and we get more organized clan battles. Cavalry is much weaker against organized infantry, so we will have to see if the current implementation remains viable in more organized settings.
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I suggest you stop the trolling... We all know you are completly biaised and will cry a river if you loose your champion Chaparral 2J, no need to prove it even further.
Kafein howzabout u dont judge quite so fast, aslan was quoting me on a flash movie and not the subject of the thread
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the low maneuverability sounds good, the only problem i have is that the acceleration is also dependant on maneuverability i think
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Kafein howzabout u dont judge quite so fast, aslan was quoting me on a flash movie and not the subject of the thread
That's exactly why I said you two should stop trolling... Was that movie useful ? No.
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If you can't avoid allies you are doing something wrong as cavalry. If so; You are making poor decisions, and that has absolutely nothing to do with maneuver. I very rarely bump team infantry when I am cavalry. I am considerate, as I have played mostly infantry and it sucks to be bumped by your teammates.
They Might roll dice if they run into their hard-counter supposed-to-kill-horses only-thing-a-horseman-worries-about.
That sounds like an issue. You shouldn't be rounding blind corners at full speed on a horse either. That is the only scenario you won't see a pikeman in time to evade it. Pikeman are defensive counters, they can't GO kill you -- you have to go TO them. You have to willingly choose to die to a pike as cav, whether that be you gambling by turning corners at full speed, or charging straight at one thinking you are invincible.
I'm sorry, if you fucked up that bad you should be impaled on that pike if you don't rear your horse in time.
Yeah. You can be full speed and stop your horse by rearing it in this game. Sorry if any of you have been crutching on maneuver so hard you've never had to do it even once.
pretty sure default it is ctrl+J.
I also try my hardest to avoid teamhitting, even if it means my horse has to stop in front of a group of enemy infantrymen thirsting for horse blood and +1 kill. That is unless my team has been rolled so badly that I have lost all respect for them, but even then I try not to screw over any teammates (ie trampling them in front of a group of enemy infantry).
I'm quite happy with the long spear and pike counters for cavalry. If you try to turn a building corner on a courser at reduced speed, chances are that the pikeman is going to have far too much time to thrust his pointy stick, effectively stopping or killing your horse whether you try to turn around or not. I find that its actually more effective to blindly turn the corner at full speed and pray that no pointy sticks are on the other side as I barrel through whoever gets in my way and maybe thrust once or twice with my heavy lance depending on the size of the group. But then again I hear there are more urban type maps on NA whereas EU experiences a lot of open plains maps.
Long spears and pikes are far from being the only things that cav have to worry about.
And I love the control+j stop, but its hardly ever more useful than manually turning around, even on a courser. Stopping generally means death for melee cav, especially if ranged is around (but thank god archers and xbows aren't too popular anymore, right? :rolleyes:)
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If you can't avoid allies you are doing something wrong as cavalry. If so; You are making poor decisions, and that has absolutely nothing to do with maneuver. I very rarely bump team infantry when I am cavalry. I am considerate, as I have played mostly infantry and it sucks to be bumped by your teammates.
They Might roll dice if they run into their hard-counter supposed-to-kill-horses only-thing-a-horseman-worries-about.
That sounds like an issue. You shouldn't be rounding blind corners at full speed on a horse either. That is the only scenario you won't see a pikeman in time to evade it. Pikeman are defensive counters, they can't GO kill you -- you have to go TO them. You have to willingly choose to die to a pike as cav, whether that be you gambling by turning corners at full speed, or charging straight at one thinking you are invincible.
I'm sorry, if you fucked up that bad you should be impaled on that pike if you don't rear your horse in time.
Yeah. You can be full speed and stop your horse by rearing it in this game. Sorry if any of you have been crutching on maneuver so hard you've never had to do it even once.
pretty sure default it is ctrl+J.
Strawman much?
And yeah, that crtl-J stop (lol, what about the realistic cav role?) is great to avoid being stopped. Oh wait. So now you are stopped and need 4 seconds to get back at speed again, great way to get killed by any archer who is competent enough to make a headshot or two on a stationary target. Great way to get killed when charging into a group (as per your suggestion) and having enemies to all sides of you.
Ok, let's just keep it at that - how exactly do you charge a group with polearms in when you need 3 seconds for a 90° turn and 4 seconds to speed up/slow down? Bonus question, how many maps are out there where you have even enough room for those maneuvers before running into bad terrain?
As to teambumps, I'm talking about reality. They happen. I do them myself occassionally, I also see other horsemen do them. Nerfing maneuver a lot and upping charge will not make them any better.
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Strawman much?
And yeah, that crtl-J stop (lol, what about the realistic cav role?) is great to avoid being stopped. Oh wait. So now you are stopped and need 4 seconds to get back at speed again, great way to get killed by any archer who is competent enough to make a headshot or two on a stationary target. Great way to get killed when charging into a group (as per your suggestion) and having enemies to all sides of you.
Ok, let's just keep it at that - how exactly do you charge a group with polearms in when you need 3 seconds for a 90° turn and 4 seconds to speed up/slow down? Bonus question, how many maps are out there where you have even enough room for those maneuvers before running into bad terrain?
As to teambumps, I'm talking about reality. They happen. I do them myself occassionally, I also see other horsemen do them. Nerfing maneuver a lot and upping charge will not make them any better.
Buffing charge as realistically as maneuver is nerfed would usually mean death for the bumped guy in light armor (btw I think it should be a little less effective for balance). This potentially allows cavalry to rape undefended groups straight on and kill multiple enemies with one charge. Also, correct hp and armor values would mean more survivability to archers.
Maybe there still can be place for light cav, but for more diversity heavy cav should exist too (just like heavy inf and light inf).
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I suggest you stop the trolling... We all know you are completly biaised and will cry a river if you loose your champion Chaparral 2J, no need to prove it even further.
hah, yeah im cav player, im in horse only clan, i got horse in signature and i actually like horses in general
sure i troll a bit here and there sometimes, but thats because you guys cannot be taken seriously, i used to voice my opinion in those threads as i got some experience with it not because i want to make it easier for myself, i dont talk about balance of 2h, 1h, archers etc as i have very little if any experience in those fields
your hatred for this class is well known, not one time you have greeted us with insults, so ask yourself but be honest with it, who's here really biased ?
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EponiCo, don't exaggerate so much. The times you throw out for a 90 degree turn being 3 seconds :mrgreen:
I have never suggested anyone be stupid enough to charge straight through a large group of pole arms as a lone cav. Who the fuck would do that? That is a terrible example, you'd have to be a hell of a gambler to do that. Regardless of whether it worked or not [it often times works though...].
And my suggestion is not some huge nerf to light cav. They'd actually be able to take a hit and be useful as cav.
My suggestion isn't a nerf or a buff, it is more role defining.
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5) Stop whining.
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I say: "make a suggestion"!
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It often was suggested to define horse roles.
Gimp Horses: Sumpter 5000 , Rouncey 7500
Armored/Charge Horses -> Warhorse 10000 , Large Warhorse 15000 , Cataphract 20000 , Charger 25000, Mamluke Horse 35000 , Plated Charger 45000
Fast/manouverable horses -> Plafrey 10000 , Steppe Horse 15000 , Desert Horse 20000 , Courser 25000 , Destrier 35000 , Arabian Warhorse 45000
Balance the horses with that stats. Warhorse would be a crappy armored one like palfrey would be a really crappy fast one.
Sumpter and Rouncey would be newbiehorses.
Stats would increas in armored hp and charge in the first group speed and maneouver in second group with higher tiers.
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Buffing charge as realistically as maneuver is nerfed would usually mean death for the bumped guy in light armor (btw I think it should be a little less effective for balance). This potentially allows cavalry to rape undefended groups straight on and kill multiple enemies with one charge. Also, correct hp and armor values would mean more survivability to archers.
Maybe there still can be place for light cav, but for more diversity heavy cav should exist too (just like heavy inf and light inf).
I like marathon's suggestion as it makes alot of sense, much like having high charge damage would make 1h/2h with 35+ armor scared to just rush up to a horseman at full gallop.
here is the deal; the balance is off because on an average game, a single horseman should be able to take out 1h and 2h infantry without being dehorsed in 2 hits. if you use a warhorse, which is radically expensive, its about 4, although you are going considerably slower than if you used a palfrey.
this is why cavalry is out of balance; horses are just too easy to kill to justify paying 1k-2k per break, and if i boldly charge in like the good arch duke i should be, i end up getting stopped from full gallop after i ram 2 people, hardly doing any damage.
btw, i use the courser and the large war horse.
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Melee infantry don't give a damn about charge damage. People riding plated chargers or other warhorses with low-high maneuver get loljumpslashed and dodged quite often. Restricting horses to a single vector (making turning and acceleration/deceleration unreliable as a tactic via nerfing maeuver) would pretty much kill their usefulness. I've tried lancing ingame on a courser at top speed while barely touching the A or D keys. I missed the lance when my target jumped clear out of my way.
Infantry are already able to thwart and kill lancers', if maneuver was taken away from the already low maneuver horses then they would become useless. If maneuvers were nerfed all around, then I imagine the currently high maneuver horses would get somewhere around 43 maneuver, 43 speed, 20 charge damage, and 100 health. Congratulations, the nerfed arabian warhorse becomes an overpriced version of the current palfrey, and that's the horse lancers would use.
And if you think frontal cav charges will ever or should ever work against a wary team, then you're asking for too much.
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Courser 25000, Arabian Warhorse 45000
First I was like :shock:
Then I was like :lol:
If you think that price difference is deserved, then I can honestly say that this is not your field of expertise.
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Horses are fine, they just have a tad to much maneuver. If you cant do well on a horse, then you should rethink your class 8-)
Inf running and jumping around like a epileptic cartoon figure from the 50s but horsies have to much maneuver.........alrighty!
very strange very strange :mad:
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After playing cav for a while, from stupidly not maneuvering my horses around to dodge/confuse incoming pikes, arrows, or thrown weapons, to keeping my horse alive about at least half of a round to full round (Or until I'm dead), my thoughts are:
They are actually fine as it is.
My sumpter horse is usually killed with 1 headshot or maximum of 3 ranged shots.
My courser extends up to 2 headshots sometimes or maximum of 4, 5 ranged shots.
My plated charger... Well, took about 20 arrows in its behind, 1/4 of its hp reduced. (Those long bow headshots still hurt)
Their repair costs? (Approximate)
250 for sumpter, 1000 for courser, 3300 for plated charger.
And my plated charger was damaged and repaired about 4 times now... I'm in debt, it's now stubborn and I can't ride it :mad:
I.... might have some disagreement with the prices... but they are fine as they are.
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EponiCo, don't exaggerate so much. The times you throw out for a 90 degree turn being 3 seconds :mrgreen:
I have never suggested anyone be stupid enough to charge straight through a large group of pole arms as a lone cav. Who the fuck would do that? That is a terrible example, you'd have to be a hell of a gambler to do that. Regardless of whether it worked or not [it often times works though...].
And my suggestion is not some huge nerf to light cav. They'd actually be able to take a hit and be useful as cav.
My suggestion isn't a nerf or a buff, it is more role defining.
I'm not exaggerating really with some of the suggestions that have been thrown out. I might count a little too fast in my tests, though. :P
Also, yes, the light horses would still be useful in a different role, but the less maneuverable heavy horses (which take that role currently and either better or worse depending on how you'd change), possibly including the courser whose speed would be useless if you can't control it, would be hit far harder and screwed.
Chaos sums it up pretty well, you simply need some maneuver for all horse tactics except backstabbing. The heavy horses are already very disadvantage vs. footmen in the effect player input has on offense and defense (bad turning, no sidestepping, completely predictable attacks, bad blocking), you have to predict a lot and start maneuvering before something happens. That's how the engine is coded, and I don't think taking away player input even more and letting the horse take extra damage and deal extra damage without need to attack is good balance for an action game.
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less manouver and more health, charge and armor. and make the armored horses more attractive(cheaper repairs)!!!
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Lancing should be much harder on horseback.
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hah, yeah im cav player, im in horse only clan, i got horse in signature and i actually like horses in general
sure i troll a bit here and there sometimes, but thats because you guys cannot be taken seriously, i used to voice my opinion in those threads as i got some experience with it not because i want to make it easier for myself, i dont talk about balance of 2h, 1h, archers etc as i have very little if any experience in those fields
your hatred for this class is well known, not one time you have greeted us with insults, so ask yourself but be honest with it, who's here really biased ?
You are obviously loving horses more than I do currently. But I played those from the very beginning of my "career" in cRPG, back then it was an extremely rare class. I farmed gold for one week or something just for a palfrey x) I nearly exclusively played 1h/pole cav until very recently, and I always appreciated horses in the game, either enemies or allies.
But with the January patch all went completly wrong, yet I only realise it now. The riding skill requirements were changed from per 6 agi to per 3 agi and horse requirements upped by one, effectively increasing the overall maneuver and speed by a great margin. The upkeep hit horses really bad, and especially 1h cav. I abandoned my destrier to take a rouncey. My weapon costed more than a heavy lance and I needed a better armor for the greater risk (1h really are short compared to lances, afterall). Then with the more recent patch lances became unsheathable. At first it looked like a nerf to lancers. Well it wasn't really since "lancers" don't change weapons before they are dehorsed anyway. Instead I got hit by that one even tougher, I had to drop my lance to exclusively use my sword, even in cav vs cav, logically reducing my chances of survival against a lancer to 5% or less.
So now maybe you understand why I'm so pissed about these petty attemps of lancers to troll ANY sensible suggestions about cav. If you brought any argument, maybe we could discuss like adults, but it's not the case. Now you'll probably post a "deal with it" image or something similar, and that would prove your unwillingness to discuss. Please report to me any insult directed at you I wrote, I would be pleased to apologize for them.
Actually, "dealing with it" is exactly what I'm doing, creating a lancer alt. I still think it would be better if cav was reworked.
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Lancing should be much harder on horseback.
agreed. Its probably the easiest aspect of the game right now. No need to manual block, no need to lead an arrow, no need to worry about attack direction... and to top it all off, its one of the most damaging attacks in the game.
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You are obviously loving horses more than I do currently. But I played those from the very beginning of my "career" in cRPG, back then it was an extremely rare class. I farmed gold for one week or something just for a palfrey x) I nearly exclusively played 1h/pole cav until very recently, and I always appreciated horses in the game, either enemies or allies.
But with the January patch all went completly wrong, yet I only realise it now. The riding skill requirements were changed from per 6 agi to per 3 agi and horse requirements upped by one, effectively increasing the overall maneuver and speed by a great margin. The upkeep hit horses really bad, and especially 1h cav. I abandoned my destrier to take a rouncey. My weapon costed more than a heavy lance and I needed a better armor for the greater risk (1h really are short compared to lances, afterall). Then with the more recent patch lances became unsheathable. At first it looked like a nerf to lancers. Well it wasn't really since "lancers" don't change weapons before they are dehorsed anyway. Instead I got hit by that one even tougher, I had to drop my lance to exclusively use my sword, even in cav vs cav, logically reducing my chances of survival against a lancer to 5% or less.
So now maybe you understand why I'm so pissed about these petty attemps of lancers to troll ANY sensible suggestions about cav. If you brought any argument, maybe we could discuss like adults, but it's not the case. Now you'll probably post a "deal with it" image or something similar, and that would prove your unwillingness to discuss. Please report to me any insult directed at you I wrote, I would be pleased to apologize for them.
Actually, "dealing with it" is exactly what I'm doing, creating a lancer alt. I still think it would be better if cav was reworked.
dont you remember all the whine on how cav had to put only 3 points to ride best horses ? with the increase of riding req came -2speed -2man nerf and a charge damage nerf to all horses (because back than all the inf thought its the only way cav can make kills)
so i cannot agree with you on that cav got buff to their speed or maneuver
pre january patch all cav were riding heavy (except for Tommyyy who was riding sarranid as i remember) and basicly just killing inf by dozens, back than 1h was better than lance, you could have kill lots of more people with it
but after that patch with new xp system the dynamics on battle field changed and pole lancing took the crown, 1h are still just as effective as lancers when it comes to killing inf that dont look around, and can take lancers also with a proper maneuvering and a shield
Lancing should be much harder on horseback.
harder ? in cav vs cav when a lancer makes mistake he dies, cant get harder than that, when it comes to killing inf, everything from a horseback will always be easy when it comes to this, at least when they dont look around and run in an unorganized mob
and did you tried lancing on one of the many village maps we have right now everywhere ? its not THAT easy cmon
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dont you remember all the whine on how cav had to put only 3 points to ride best horses ? with the increase of riding req came -2speed -2man nerf and a charge damage nerf to all horses (because back than all the inf thought its the only way cav can make kills)
so i cannot agree with you on that cav got buff to their speed or maneuver
pre january patch all cav were riding heavy (except for Tommyyy who was riding sarranid as i remember) and basicly just killing inf by dozens, back than 1h was better than lance, you could have kill lots of more people with it
but after that patch with new xp system the dynamics on battle field changed and pole lancing took the crown, 1h are still just as effective as lancers when it comes to killing inf that dont look around, and can take lancers also with a proper maneuvering and a shield
harder ? in cav vs cav when a lancer makes mistake he dies, cant get harder than that, when it comes to killing inf, everything from a horseback will always be easy when it comes to this, at least when they dont look around and run in an unorganized mob
and did you tried lancing on one of the many village maps we have right now everywhere ? its not THAT easy cmon
I seems to me the overall speed and maneuvrability increased because 2 or 3 riding points give a greater bonus than a few speed and maneuver points. But we don't know what the riding skill actually does so I can't have any proof of that.
The patch didn't changed "the dynamics of the battlefield", well it simply nerfed 1h cav more than any other class. Lancers already were a good choice and logically became the clearly best cavalry build.
With a lance, if people are looking around, you can still attack them. Even if they block you never risk your live doing it. With 1h cav even 1h footman are potentially dangerous. It can become an equivalent, but only with unsustainable equipment, which is silly anyway.
My point is, I don't see a single advantage of 1h cav over lance cav. Harder in cav vs cav, harder to kill infantry, more upkeep, and finally, a mandatory shield skill investment or you are totally gimped on foot, which isn't the case for polearms.
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agreed. Its probably the easiest aspect of the game right now. No need to manual block, no need to lead an arrow, no need to worry about attack direction... and to top it all off, its one of the most damaging attacks in the game.
requires much better timing than almost all infantry play styles, furthermore down block against a lancers and theres not much he can do, granted, cav can very easily rack up kills, so could anyone that is that mobile but still can do damage, peoples inability to watch their backs and cavalry players willingness to charge into melee when others are distracted is what gets them kills
cavalry is meant to be powerful, horses are meant to make you more mobile and do more damage, thats why they were used.
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i dont get it. dude, 1h cav has a revival since last patch. didnt see so many 1h cav, and doing good aswell, since uglybastards times
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requires much better timing than almost all infantry play styles, furthermore down block against a lancers and theres not much he can do, granted, cav can very easily rack up kills, so could anyone that is that mobile but still can do damage, peoples inability to watch their backs and cavalry players willingness to charge into melee when others are distracted is what gets them kills
I could not disagree more.
The timing is flat out simple. On top of this, a slow heavy-lance stays out forever. Infantry on the other hand have to have lighting fast reflexes to get manual blocking down. A cavalry has to just allow enough space to travel during the 1.5 to 2 seconds your lance will be extended during. Half the time if you miss your primary target, you can catch an unwitting archer behind them.
Every other class has much more difficult timing than a cavalry. Archers have to adjust for arrow drop, rain, and leading distance. Throwers have this problem more-so. Spearmen have to time their lance or wind up as a kabob. Shielders have to drop their shield immediately after an attack in order to counter attack. 2h and polearm have to manual block.
If an opponent uses downblock? Couch them. Unless they are using a spear, if you guide your lance right you still have a strong chance of out reaching even most 2hers.
Cavalry is the easiest class to pick up and also has a much lower skill ceiling than other classes.
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it's bullshit that you have to have super reflexes to block a lance, yes you are right that you have to have super reflexes when you notice the horse when it's 3 m away from you, but if you can only notice a horse coming at that distance you have to check your eyes and ears, because otherwise, it's f*cking bullshit.
archers don't need timing, they need time to aim, that's something else. and that just takes practice.
and every infantrie can either avoid or kill cav easily. if it's a village map, than you can avoid the incoming cav, and if it's an open map, you should stick with your team, and in a team there are always pikers or hoplites.
and don't bring couching into this disscusion, because it sucks, yes it does a lot of damage, but you can jump past it, it's slow, and unless you have a great lance, you don't have a lot of length to couch and so hit your opponent.
and maybe cav is the easiest class to pick but to be good at it, mate isn't :wink:(just like every other class
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ITT a load of people who are jelly because cav players get many kills.
You guys should know by now that the game is not about e-peening about your k/d.