cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pandor_Archer on May 30, 2011, 10:28:53 am
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plz change down hit of katana and nodachi , like flamberg or Grossmeiser in 2 h mod, it will be right
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Good sir, wat?
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I think he wants katana and nodachi to have the one and half sword thrust animaiton, like you see it on the flamberge and 2h weapons in polearms mode.
But he didnt say why though ;D
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But he didnt say why though ;D
it will be right
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so chadz what do u say it can be done?
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I think he wants the katana and nodachi to have a polearm thrust animation instead of the 2h(disregard the fact that nodachi doesn't have a thrust and thrusting with the katana is a bad idea in general)
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I'm pretty content with what they are right now
Except for that overpriced wakizashi :mad: Though I still wear it for cosmetic purpose. (And that repair cost, not cool man, I don't even use it)
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plz change down hit of katana and nodachi , like flamberg or Grossmeiser in 2 h mod, it will be right
I am amazed of the quality of this argumentation, and feel the need to respond correspondingly:
"please don't change down hit of katana and nodachi, like flamberg[e] or Grossmeiser in 2 h mod[e], it won't be right[.]"
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Sounds silly.
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I am amazed of the quality of this argumentation, and feel the need to respond correspondingly:
"please don't change down hit of katana and nodachi, like flamberg[e] or Grossmeiser in 2 h mod[e], it won't be right[.]"
It's the Langes Messer not the Grosses Messer though (it misses the s at the end on the Website #FIX#)
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japanese swords didn't have a point to thrust with so it's dump anyway
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japanese swords didn't have a point to thrust with so it's dump anyway
You sir, dont know wtf you are talking about. Im not sure about you, but I sure as hell wouldnt want someone to thrust any of these edges into my chest:
http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/tips.html
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that's not the strenght of the blade, that point is just to let the other blade pass your sword so you can kill your enemy :wink:
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that's not the strenght of the blade, that point is just to let the other blade pass your sword so you can kill your enemy :wink:
The Myth of Thrusting versus Cutting Swords
By John Clements & Belinda Hertz
http://www.thearma.org/essays/thrusting_vs_cutting.html
Quote: "The Japanese katana, famous for its cutting power, is actually a fairly good thrusting sword as well and such techniques were especially taught for battlefield use against armor."
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The Myth of Thrusting versus Cutting Swords
By John Clements & Belinda Hertz
http://www.thearma.org/essays/thrusting_vs_cutting.html
Quote: "The Japanese katana, famous for its cutting power, is actually a fairly good thrusting sword as well and such techniques were especially taught for battlefield use against armor."
they weren't used to thrust with by the samurai, so it can be a thrusting weapon but it wasn't used like one
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Sigh. You just dont get it do you -.-
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The Myth of Thrusting versus Cutting Swords
By John Clements & Belinda Hertz
http://www.thearma.org/essays/thrusting_vs_cutting.html
Quote: "The Japanese katana, famous for its cutting power, is actually a fairly good thrusting sword as well and such techniques were especially taught for battlefield use against armor."
Funny how that quote is telling the truth in cRPG as well.
So Nodachi should have thrust while Katana's thrust should have higher than only 16p!
they weren't used to thrust with by the samurai, so it can be a thrusting weapon but it wasn't used like one
It can be a thrusting weapon AND it was used like one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiTgLg5ccA0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiTgLg5ccA0)
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NO IT'S NOT KIDDO RAGE!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:
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I willing to bet japanese swords had much sharper points than european swords, even if european ones were mostly for stabbing probably still blunt compared.
its frankly retarded that nodachi does not have a stab and that katana's stab barely does more damage than the fucking wooden sword.
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Well, it could be because gameplay balance issues. Who knows. Gameplay must always come before realism imo. I just got into this discussion becuse of that dude who thought he had it all figured out but didnt know shit :P
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but it is true that european swords had somethings in their advantage, weight and the guy who hit with the sword. the european swords were heavier than the katana sort. and the european knights were much more trained to hit hard and fast so your opponant wouldn't have a chance strike back. the samurai were much more trained on fighting in a "right"way and more on accuracy and the mental fight that takes place inside the warrior.
Well, it could be because gameplay balance issues. Who knows. Gameplay must always come before realism imo. I just got into this discussion becuse of that dude who thought he had it all figured out but didnt know shit :P
oww oww, me me!
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if you've ever fought with a practice katana, you'd know you end up threatening with a point alot of times even if you don't run someone through with it 100% of the time, I've fought alot with practice katana's and other japanese weapons (nox is a blackbelt, I am not btw)
(it looks alot like the thrust animation)
and the thing is alot of Europe's fighting styles have unfortunately been lost to the ages and are being "reconstructed" nowadays, where as alot of eastern martial arts survived with their actual teaching never having ended
you can't really learn how to swing a mace or two handed axe(even sword really) like they used to because the art was not kept alive, I don't think there is a Varangian Guard Association of America(or elsewhere :P )
(not like you see "Dojo's" for people to learn bastard sword or poleaxe fighting nowadays, on the other hand people still dress up in fake suits and fight each other with practice katana's as a sport
(yes fencing exists too but that style of fighting is extremely late period) (think guns/no armor by then)
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm (best site about historical fighting I've found, really challenges "myths" (like all 1h/shield medieval armies etc)
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Well, there is a lot of info on european martial arts still.
ARMA seems to have a lot of it. It's what ARMA does.
http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm
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i just saw a documantairy about how the katana was made and used(3 and a half hours!) and they didn't really use it to stab. that's what they said and they also said that it didn't have a sharp point(atleast it was sharp but not pointy enough to penetrate armor)
and for god sakes don't say I'M wrong because i didn't make that statement!
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I willing to bet japanese swords had much sharper points than european swords, even if european ones were mostly for stabbing probably still blunt compared.
its frankly retarded that nodachi does not have a stab and that katana's stab barely does more damage than the fucking wooden sword.
You lost the bet. Why would any sword be blunt?
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You lost the bet. Why would any sword be blunt?
not like you see "Dojo's" for people to learn bastard sword or poleaxe fighting nowadays
There are a few. It's slowly becoming more and more popular.
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Katana users did do thrust attacks ! I know it from Shogun 2 !
:mrgreen:
In all seriousness, why would they not ? Katana's are pointy at the end of the blade so I don't see the reason not to thrust from time to time.
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First of all, sorry my sleepy bad english right now... but...
Katanas were used to thrust, but only against bad (leather) or not armored enemys, because it was really hard to thrust trough a samurai armor since it was exactly against that invented (multiple tiers of different materials).
To be correct, in the most "schools" of handling a katana, they were allocated to used just Mono-Uchi (the upper part of 3 equal parts of the blade).
The "tip" of the Katana, also called Kissaki, was used to cut mostly, like these little invention from japan you all know
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And about the nodachi... it hardly depends on the length of it, if it's still a nodachi and not an odachi, it was mostly used like a katana, but if actually was to long, also an odachi, it was more used like a polearm and especially NOT to thrust, because it easily would've break.
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First of all, sorry my sleepy bad english right now... but...
Katanas were used to thrust, but only against bad (leather) or not armored enemys, because it was really hard to thrust trough a samurai armor since it was exactly against that invented (multiple tiers of different materials).
To be correct, in the most "schools" of handling a katana, they were allocated to used just Mono-Uchi (the upper part of 3 equal parts of the blade).
The "tip" of the Katana, also called Kissaki, was used to cut mostly, like these little invention from japan you all know
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visitors can't see pics , please register or login
And about the nodachi... it hardly depends on the length of it, if it's still a nodachi and not an odachi, it was mostly used like a katana, but if actually was to long, also an odachi, it was more used like a polearm and especially NOT to thrust, because it easily would've break.
That picture is a little misleading, as previously posted in this thread the tips look like this:
http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/tips.html
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Khorin, it's not about the "looking", it's about the function, it's absolutely the same, cut with the tip.
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Heh, obviously.
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yes the katana was mostly designed for cutting, but do you honestly think katana deserves only 2 more thrust damage than a wooden sword?
currently all the stab does is bounce.
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To the OP, why did you want the animation change?
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To the OP, why did you want the animation change?
Can't you read? He said that already... BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT!!!!!
That its not a good reason... shh...
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Oh, I figured they might explain in more detail eventually.
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yes the katana was mostly designed for cutting, but do you honestly think katana deserves only 2 more thrust damage than a wooden sword?
currently all the stab does is bounce.
Yes that's true, since it was designed for cutting, it's still very pointy, more than most of the european weapons, so, a thrusting against a leatherarmor between katana and longsword,sorry Europa, i bet on Japan :)
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Now I, not completely sure I have facts straight, but samurai swords (katana/bokken) are like the swords one use in kendo right? In kendo atleast stabbing attacks are extremely effective, since they are so fast. However, the attack animation is more like the flamberge/polearm one, but the character is standing up straight. (to be honest the current 2h overhead stab seems pretty unrealistic to me) Now Im pretty sure katanas were used for stabbing too, it would deal some damage if someone got stabbed. (even a screwdriver can kill) However, currently the katanas/other japanese weapons are balanced with the "low thrust damage" or the "not able to thrust" ability. If they got the ability to thrust they would have to get a reduction in other abilities like cutting damage or speed.
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Nodachi had a stab attack before and thank god it doesn't have one anymore. It looked retarted and it's a weapon made for slicing and dicing anyways.
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Nodachi had a stab attack before and thank god it doesn't have one anymore. It looked retarted and it's a weapon made for slicing and dicing anyways.
i love you! :mrgreen:(not in a gay way) +much!
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Now I, not completely sure I have facts straight, but samurai swords (katana/bokken) are like the swords one use in kendo right? In kendo atleast stabbing attacks are extremely effective, since they are so fast.
Yes, thrusts to the throat and torso are two of the five possible hits in kendo (the other three being cuts to the wrists, torso and head) and even though todays kendo is not the same as actual swordplay, it should be obvious that Katana were used to thrust.
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Having owned a Katana before, I can say that I personally would never use it to stab anything harder than thick leather.
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Historical accuracy < game balance. If anybody has issues with balance do post them in the appropriate section of the forum. Minor historical contentions about cRPG gear are trivial. Whether or not the katana was ever used effectively to stab is not nearly so important as whether a very effectively stabbing katana would be balanced in-game. If you're interested in a vibrant discussion of history and military physics, though, do carry on :)
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That would be true if game balance was top priority, at the moment it's a mix of historical accuracy and balance, one of the reasons why balancing items well is so hard.
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@everyone claiming realism or balance is more important:
In any game based on reality neither can be considered more important, because they can both be accomplished.
Can be done in 2 steps.
1. Make the game as historically accurate and real as possible.
2. Balance the game while changing as little of the realism as possible. If done correctly you will remove no realism.
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And now a generic example for all you naysayers:
Problem: If we made item X like it is in real life it would be the best weapon in the game.
Step 1: Make the item just like real life.
Step 2: Make it cost somewhere between a fuck-ton and a metric fuck-ton.
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I'd bet on a longsword to be the most piercy weapon.
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And now a generic example for all you naysayers:
Problem: If we made item X like it is in real life it would be the best weapon in the game.
Step 1: Make the item just like real life.
Step 2: Make it cost somewhere between a fuck-ton and a metric fuck-ton.
Which presumes quite a bit about how people value in-game currency, the extremes which players can take their builds, and the limitations of in-game mechanics. Milanese plate, for example, historically cost more than any serf could afford [in their lifetime] yet here it's available to everyone if they play for a few hours with cheaper gear. Milanese plate, also, was near-impenetrable against most projectiles shot from most kinds of bow. In cRPG such an armour would be game-breaking, and thus arrows (especially head shots) can be considerably effective against plate. Milanese plate suits also covered knights from head to toe, allowing almost no direct weapon-to-flesh contact from all but the pierciest of piercing weapons. In cRPG a slashing scimitar, slashing at the chest, can often harm and stagger another player in Milanese plate. All of these eccentric features are then exacerbated by extreme builds which can earn more money faster, shoot for more damage, and hit through almost any armour with any weapon.
Though it's silly to spend time arguing for/against largely contiguous theories about in-game design and balance, it's even more silly to say that the such contentions can be solved so easily by cost. There's a reason why, after so many patches and iterations, players can make reasonable arguments concerning legitimate imbalance. It's not that devs are stupid, nor that all players are whiners, but that it's a far more complex issue than you're making it out to be. I posted what I did so people wouldn't get caught up in the can of worms which is cRPG realism and re-focus on the game which we're all playing.
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+1 to Diomedes for that last post.
And my .02$ on the katana thing. Pretty much all of the japanese blades I've seen have a sharp, useable pointy end, whether it actually got used in combat or not would be up to the guy holding the other end of it... There's no doubt in my mind however that any fighter worth his salt wouldn't hesitate to stab an opponent given an opening, the winners got to argue about stuff, the others were awful quiet most of the time.
What did these guys do seppuku with anyway? Tanto, wakisashi or katana? I'm guessing you'd want the end to be pointy for that...
Jack
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The katana allready has its niche, it's basicly the exotic bastard sword, keep it that way. Fighting someone with a MW katana is quite annoying anyway, it does not need a lethal stab aswell.
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@Diomedes
I had to stare at your reply for some (long) time, because it never actually disputes what I said. Though it does "insult" the idea of expressing it it and give a sample problem that you think my methodology can not solve.
I think this is my fault though, because I must have not communicated well enough my methodology. But...I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it than 2 steps but I will try restating: First make the game real, then make the game playable/fun possibly at the cost of realism, but while removing very little realism. Meaning that: I am disappointed, yet accepting of losing realism when its required or too difficult to achieve. Balance is always possible if you try to achieve it, it can either be built upon realism or it can be built upon whatever you call removing thrust from a weapon that thrusts (i call it ridiculous) .
Side Note: I did a poll 2 months ago about realism. It asked "Do you think CRPG should have more realism or more fun" 2/3 of our playerbase chose more realism. A shift is obviously due.
Here is my comments on your statements in order:
You start off by appearing to put down my statement claiming I was "taking for granted" how valuable currency is. This is in no way a notable statement because this is already done. Every item has a price set to buy it by the developers which is based on assumptions of what will control people from buying it.
You say I take for granted "the extremes which players can take their builds" -- I Have no care how people place their stats, that is irrelevant here. If you are talking about gear, any extremes with what people are equipping can be fixed by setting repair costs of items to the level that restricts them.
"limitations of in-game mechanics" -- I "take for granted" nothing of the in game mechanics. I know what many of them are all-ready but that doesn't matter. If it cant be done, it cant be done. Why even talk about it...
"Milanese plate...historically cost more than any serf could afford in their lifetime" The real world is its own separate unrelated economics system that is influenced by way more than crpg ever could be. That price does not apply in CRPG because RL price is a result of real world supply and demand. The demand for plate in Europe is much higher than that of CRPG. The only constant that gathered for use in crpg is the supply.
The solution here if you wanted to be historically accurate, would be to find at the % of soldiers in mid-evil times wearing full plate. Then, continue to adjust the cost of plate until that percent of players are using plate. Simple.
As far as the plate being in reality a "god suit"..... What is wrong with spending 98% of the time playing in regular gear so you can save up for the insane repair costs of a few rounds of "god-mode" ? . In game would occasionally be a round where an player can afford to spawn in plate and it takes several people to bring them down. I think plate should be a rarity in game as it was in RL. The repair system was a step in the right direction, but making plate even more rare/expensive but better in exchange would be a good move and would not unbalance the game.
"It's silly to say that the such contentions can be solved so easily by cost" / "It is a..complex issue" to solve------ LOL... well to argue this would be hours arguing a world view. I am a libertarian capitalist. I believe EVERYTHING can be solved with the free exchange of money. Especially complex issues.
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Anyways, I like you diomedes, I wrote this TL;DR type response for the fun it. Saw a challenge in replying to what you wrote because I came up dumbfounded for so long at the start.
As far as the original topic of this conversation: This should be a completely one sided discussion.
There is no reason given why a weapon that was used for thrusting cant be used for thrusting. This is ridiculous. If you are going to call something a Nodachi you have to have it be a Nodachi, otherwise its just utter BS.