cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 01, 2015, 04:10:48 pm

Title: Nerf couched lance
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 01, 2015, 04:10:48 pm
As you can see by the poll, I think the first thing that need to be fixed in cav, is the couched lance.
The amount of damage a couched lance can deal is enormous but the skills and the skill points requiered to manage to do it is minimal. Plus with the size of the lance used for it, the risk taken is pretty low.

To demonstrate it, I will compare couched lance with all the other things in crpg getting close to the amount of damage a couched can deal:
-couched vs xbow: Surely xbower take less risk than a cav couching, but almost no xbow can kill me in one shot. If an xbow is capable to kill me in one shot, it requiered skill to hs, and the reloading time is longer than the reloding time of a couched.

-couched vs 2h: a 2h to deal damage must get close and take risk. It requieres more skills to deal damage. And a lot of points have to be spent in weapon master, in athletics and in powerstrike. Whereas a couched only requieres 6 points in riding to be effective.

-couched vs lance on cav: This is imo the most illogical thing, a couched requieres less skill than a normal attack of cav-lance, as cav-lance got to hit at the right timing but couched deals more damage and is unblockable.

-couched vs 1h-cav: The amount of damage a 1h-cav is ridiculous compared with those of a couched. Even tho the 1h-cav must take a lot more of risk as he has to get closer to his prey, so he has more chance to get hit back and it gives more time for his prey to turn around. For exemple at the moment you hear a courser at full speed, you have 1 sec to react befor getting couched but you would have 2 sec to react to a 1h-cav and you need less time to react as you can block it.

-couched vs throwing: Same as xbow and 2h. It requieres more skills than couched but deal less damage. And it requieres a lot more of points spending, in athletic, in weapon master and in power throw.

I admit it is normal that cav-lance have an unblockable attack otherwise blocking down would be sufficient to counter them. But the damage needs to be nerfed or another suggestion that could be cool, is that after a couched has succeded the weapon is automatically dropped or broke to simulate to damage done to the lance on the impact.
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 01, 2015, 04:15:37 pm
The other small adjustement I suggest is to give some HP to lower horses. As the patch of destiny has improve the damage than most player can deal by giving them more attribute and skill point. So now almost everyone can kill MW rouncey in one slash or one arrow, there is no much difference between a donkey and a MW rouncey from an arrow POV right now.

And also I'v seen that ashwood pike is now autorised on horse and I think it's a bit too op as ashwood is already on foot the second most op pole after the awlpike. So remove it again from horse.
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: Krex on April 01, 2015, 04:32:31 pm
Bullshit.
I dont have a cavchar atm, nor do I play much cRPG atm. But cav is the most castrated class in whole cRPG if you compare it to native or any other sane mod. You cant turn as in other mods, you arent as fast as in other mods(at least I feel like that, might be because of all these agiwhores), your lances angles are insanely small, the biggest lance (great lance) can ONLY be couched and requires 22str and your courser dies from 2 arrows to the ass. Cav is sooooooo OP in cRPG...
Also, you can easily dodge couched lances.
About your examples:
-couched vs xbow: couched "reloading time" is about the same as xbow, and it depends on having a horse or not. you can also camp with xbow, thats impossible as cav.
-couched vs 2h: you can, as I already said, easily dodge couched lances. you cant dodge 2h.
-couched vs lance on cav: Most people use Heavy Lances and with those you can outreach EVERY couched lances, even great lances.
-couched vs lance on cav: dodge. otherwise:shield. I havent seen any 1h cav without a shield when I was playing.
-Couched vs throwing: Hit the rider or dodge. Most people using throwing stuff have either a ton of agi or a shield that can save them.

Last but not least, you can chamber couched lances. So please, if you cant do any of the above, l2chamber and be happy.

Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on April 01, 2015, 04:15:37 pm
The other small adjustement I suggest is to give some HP to lower horses. As the patch of destiny has improve the damage than most player can deal by giving them more attribute and skill point. So now almost everyone can kill MW rouncey in one slash or one arrow, there is no much difference between a donkey and a MW rouncey from an arrow POV right now.
True that, if you mean all horses by lower horses.
Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on April 01, 2015, 04:15:37 pm
And also I'v seen that ashwood pike is now autorised on horse and I think it's a bit too op as ashwood is already on foot the second most op pole after the awlpike. So remove it again from horse.
In native they (read: me and my clan, many others too) use (long) awlpikes on horseback, which doesnt work in cRPG; therefor you got dem ashwoods on horseback. Also, they arent couchable, so you should have a hard time dealing with them...

TL;DR: Cav is castrated enough, let them use their couched lances.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 01, 2015, 05:49:02 pm
You can see my post is absolutely not about nerfing cav in general. I even do the comparison between couched lance and other type of cav weaponery to demonstrate the imbalance inside the cav. And ask for some buff on other part of cav thing.

The shield on cav is inefficient as most coucher will aim for the horse. And anyway most coucher run away from cav duel and refuse them. They just go for collecting noob and people not paying enough attention.

You make it look like it's so easy to dodge couched but when you look at what is happening on the server. 90% of the couched are from behind. Let's say it's people fault for not paying attention but the problem is, if those people didnt pay attention for any other class, the punishment wouldn't be so severe. The punishment is especially hard for STR as all the point spend in IF or heavy armor are useless because couched will kill you no matter what.

Secondly if you look at what is happening on server, you'll see that 30% of polearm on foot will get couched even if the cav is coming toward them.

By lower horse, I mean rouncey mostly. Arabian and desert are overused and if they receive a buff, the tendency will get even worse. About other horse I have no opinion as I don't play enough with them.

Comparison with other mods is irrelevant imo, this is crpg, not another mod.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: Casul on April 01, 2015, 05:52:46 pm
The only thing about cav atm is Oberyn with his bumblance-ashwood tactic and some barabes with ACS with 8 riding on arabian horse, turning faster than... no sorry, just fast, too fast.

brokar might be right somehow, but great lance cav is pretty rare these days anyway so thers is not that much to do imo
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: matt2507 on April 02, 2015, 06:47:14 pm
Quote from: Cassia on April 01, 2015, 05:52:46 pm
great lance cav is pretty rare these days

You got one in your clan, it's already enough !
Couch lance is for no balls spawnkillers cavs, nerf it !
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: Casul on April 02, 2015, 07:18:30 pm
Quote from: matt2507 on April 02, 2015, 06:47:14 pm
You got one in your clan, i t' s already enough !


fixed.
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: Krave on April 02, 2015, 07:23:41 pm
Quote from: ecorcheur_brokar on April 01, 2015, 04:10:48 pm
And a lot of points have to be spent in weapon master, in athletics and in powerstrike. Whereas a couched only requieres 6 points in riding to be effective.

You need ps, wm and ath ( horses can be put down by 2 arrows, performance on ground is needed ) as well as infantry, but you need riding skill too. Can't even imagine lance/shield cav build with more than 6 riding.

I agree, 6 riding is effective. So is 6 ath in my 27/18 pole. What's the point?
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 02, 2015, 10:35:57 pm
I witnessed people like matheus to take the krems exemple killing only with couched lance 8 people in one round without difficulty and then their horse is killed but the job is already pretty much done.

My point is that if you wanted to troll and only put point in riding, you could and do impressive damages (luckily nobody ever did it because it must be boring).

The result of the poll is really surprising me, because on the serv you see so many people being couch at spawn or getting couch from their back and dying instantly. Maybe people are masochist and love it...dunno
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: Casul on April 02, 2015, 10:45:52 pm
From 100 points I have to spend in different server problems, couche lance cav gets 5 max and 100% headshooting, pointy archers over 200 meters get 95 points. 

QGT
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: Leshma on April 02, 2015, 10:51:55 pm
Quote from: Cassia on April 01, 2015, 05:52:46 pm
The only thing about cav atm is Oberyn with his bumblance-ashwood tactic

Using Oberyn as argument against cav in cRPG is like using Atze/Chase as argument against 2H, claiming how it is too strong class. Oberyn is one of top three cav on EU side since the inception of this mod (other two being Tommy and the guy who's nick I can't remember anymore).

Cav in cRPG is weak compared to native, as Krex pointed out. Although cav in native is too strong imho.

Bump lance/slash is valid cav tactics just like hiltslashing and chambering is for infantry combat. I'm not fan of any of those "advanced" moves Warband engine allows but without them game would be too dull as Logen once said.
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 02, 2015, 11:38:00 pm
You forgot torben too.

But what saddens me is that they do the same score than any cav-coucher and when I'm cav myself it's really hard to do anything against cav-coucher as they will avoid any confrontation, only back and afk kill.
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: Krave on April 03, 2015, 12:00:45 am
That's because great lances aren't suited well to cav-cav fight. You got 1 hit, than you need to switch to secondary wep.
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: Grumbs on April 03, 2015, 12:29:11 pm
Horses take way too much damage from ranged atm. Not sure how to fix it besides just buffing their armour or nerfing ranged damage.

Couching only adds annoyance to the game. If you want to stab someone in the back at least let them block if they are aware. Chambering a couch is a joke if you think that is a fair counter to someone literally pressing 1 button and aiming their horses towards you. Jumping out the way isn't always possible and will get you bumped sometimes. Not saying couching is OP atm, but your poll doesn't give the option of whether it should be buffed or not

Counching is on the level of people hiding all round and taking pot shots at people - its not something with enough built in counters for the reward it gives the player - its one sided or passive gameplay
Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: Rebelyell on April 03, 2015, 01:14:19 pm
yea cav needs buff if anything, old lance angle.... I beg you.

Title: Re: Cav adjustement
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 06, 2015, 02:25:59 pm
ffs this is not about lance angle!

I don't get it! To make it simple:
- Couched lance is the easiest way to deal damage.
- Couched lance is the thing that deals the most damage.

The problem is simple as that! :mad:
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: POOPHAMMER on April 06, 2015, 03:02:16 pm
Leave cav alone. Pay attention to what is going on around you. Couched lances are easy as piss to avoid.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Casimir on April 06, 2015, 05:41:47 pm
yeah with the current horse stats you can almost always outmaneuver a couched lance on foot.  people getting couch kills are more down to the failure of their opponent to see it than they're own skill, however lack of situational awareness should be punished.  there is no need to nerf couch lances, its a complete non-issue.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Rebelyell on April 06, 2015, 07:15:18 pm
Quote from: Casimir on April 06, 2015, 05:41:47 pm
yeah with the current horse stats you can almost always outmaneuver a couched lance on foot.  people getting couch kills are more down to the failure of their opponent to see it than they're own skill, however lack of situational awareness should be punished.  there is no need to nerf couch lances, its a complete non-issue.
no we want skillsocialism
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Alvin_the_Chipmunk on April 07, 2015, 02:10:54 am
Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft.

Don't tell me you can't chamber couches.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: LordRichrich on April 08, 2015, 12:31:45 pm
Even I can chamber couches about 50% of the time. Alternatively, dodge.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 08, 2015, 03:13:49 pm
Quote from: Rebelyell on April 06, 2015, 07:15:18 pm
no we want skillsocialism
I would rather call it meritocracy, it makes people from east less afraid.

OK for all you say, people have to be carefull, dodge, chamber, etc. But why a couched lance should deal 5 times the amount of damage of a 1h cav, when the 1h-cav took so much more risk than the couched lance?
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Casimir on April 08, 2015, 03:28:33 pm
Because a lance is an purpose designed cavalry weapon intended to be the optimal weapon on horseback!


Seriously are you stupid or just intentionally obtuse? 1h weapons are so much more flexible you can do almost anything with them, lances are next to worthless once you are dismounted.  With the fucked lance angles in cRPG 1h cav are arguably more effective than lancer cav at anything but ambush attacks. Damage wise the advantage of couching is almost negligible to the utter devastation bump-slashing renders on people.


As i said earlier this is such a non-issue i don't understand how you can complain about it?
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Gurnisson on April 08, 2015, 07:13:04 pm
Quote from: Casimir on April 08, 2015, 03:28:33 pm
1h cav are arguably more effective than lancer cav at anything but ambush attacks.

1h cav is pretty much only better at ambush attacks, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Mr.K. on April 08, 2015, 08:08:41 pm
Quote from: Casimir on April 08, 2015, 03:28:33 pm
Seriously are you stupid or just intentionally obtuse? 1h weapons are so much more flexible you can do almost anything with them, lances are next to worthless once you are dismounted.  With the fucked lance angles in cRPG 1h cav are arguably more effective than lancer cav at anything but ambush attacks. Damage wise the advantage of couching is almost negligible to the utter devastation bump-slashing renders on people.

Bumpslash was nerfed to ground, it rarely does any noticeable damage unless you get hit in the face with a 2H weapon (40c longsword, 41p morningstar and so on). Many of the couchlance cavalry are actually 1H/2H cavalry with none or very little wpf on polearms as that allows them to be effective on foot with the 1H/2H and effective with the great lance on horseback. With the nerfing of 2H class we now have more polearms than ever, which lancers can outreach, but 1H/2H cav just have to avoid. The balance is very much skewed to the side of lancers atm.

And why would you fight with a lance on foot anyway when you can just bring a spear/bardiche/axe or any other of the extremely strong polearm weapons?
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Nightmare798 on April 08, 2015, 08:11:07 pm
Its a couched lance, a tactic specifically tailored to do terrifying damage to who ever gets hit under right circumstances.

If you are so much of a moron to get hit by couched lance, then you deserve to die.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Casimir on April 08, 2015, 08:46:55 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on April 08, 2015, 07:13:04 pm
1h cav is pretty much only better at ambush attacks, not the other way around.

what? ive been rolling around the last few days with a pole / 1h hybrid and do most of my damage with 1h.  i'm also using a shit 1h sword which aint designed for cav fighting at all.  i really dont see the issue.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Alvin_the_Chipmunk on April 10, 2015, 12:57:04 am
Learn to chamber couches. Why?

 - The horsebump-stab/swing combo can't be used, because the couch is too long.
 - Cav coming at you with couch, and you're backed up against the wall? Chamber that lance. The cav will probably hit the wall behind you and rear. Cut him up.
 - When you chamber a very long couch lance, you can sneak in an overhead or a stab.

Chambering in the first place is satisfying enough.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Macropus on April 10, 2015, 02:16:22 am
Quote from: Alvin_the_Chipmunk on April 10, 2015, 12:57:04 am
- When you chamber a nigga long couch lance, you can sneak in an overhead or a stab.
fixed, sorry.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 12, 2015, 11:24:30 pm
Quote from: Casimir on April 08, 2015, 03:28:33 pm
Seriously are you stupid or just intentionally obtuse?
Am I the one abtuse, when I showed so many arguments and you just said: " you just have to chamber it".

I understood I wont change your mind and this is my last post on this topic. "you can't wake up someone pretending to sleep"

Just wanted to show how ridiculous couched lance is:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://www.noelshack.com/2015-15-1428873582-mb23.jpg)
Couched lance is so difficult...this guy just couched everybody from front or behind. Absolutely nothing to do but going full speed press change mode....

Next map, he killed a kalmar guy who was the last man standing against 6 enemies. The kalmar guy killed 5 of them (so not any random noob). Matthaus charged from the front and the kalmar died to a fucking couched lance, so maybe it's not as easy as you say to avoid to get couched.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: JasonPastman on April 15, 2015, 09:11:58 pm
lol...

When they remove any movement with any weapon on a horse, reduce all their hp to 1, and make 1 athletics outrun a champ courser, people will still continue to make these threads.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 15, 2015, 09:23:59 pm
Cav will always be the class that has the highest potential, with the mobility being simply way beyond anything else, combined with the highest damage and then a bump knockdown that can plow through an entire team. As much as i hate cav, there isnt many changes that can be made anymore without utterly destroying the class. Nothing is more boring than getting bumped or plain one shot killed by cav though. Only thing changeable to me is that horses are still insanely tanky, and it feels as if the damage dealt to a fullspeed rider isnt as high as what he will deal to you if you miss. Forcefield shields are silly, not sure if this can be fixed though.

Ive seen some good melee players do well, but then i also saw musashi get over 200 score on a map, which i dont think ive seen infantry get close to in quite a long time.. Its just the nature of the class i guess, im not sure if i want them nerfed yet.. i dont know shit about playing cav either because fuck that class i wouldnt play it if i were paid to, fuck bumps, fuck oneshots in the back, fuck teammate cav ruining my day.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Leshma on April 15, 2015, 09:39:26 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on April 15, 2015, 09:23:59 pm
Ive seen some good melee players do well, but then i also saw musashi get over 200 score on a map, which i dont think ive seen infantry get close to in quite a long time..

Torben, Musashi, Riddaren, Oberyn when he isn't risking much. Pretty much any good cav can get those scores. Why is that? Because cRPG players are awful at countering cav. I only die to cav when they are too good at couching (Riddaren or Matthaus) or when they sneak up to me from behind (can't hear cav at all, every other sound in game is ten times louder than horse galloping). I rarely die from frontal attacks, doesn't matter which weapon I have. Most people die from frontal lance attacks because they are just bad at countering it.

Only cav I truly despise are friendly bastards who can't be arsed to watch where they are riding their horse. Enjoy reporting those bastards and of course, friendly ranged.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Guray on April 16, 2015, 09:47:00 am
I think its already overnerfed. No need for nerf anymore(In my opinion it should get buffed.It was better back then when people got 1 hit. Couched lances were frightening.Now I personally dont even care anymore when there is a cav charging at me with couched lance. It's wrong..). I can make that score with Horse/Shield/Sword. Doesn't really prove anything.

Edit : As a one handed cav , I don't fear couched cavs , I generally put my shield up and take the hit to my shield while turning the side of my horse to make couched cav stop after hit. And either kill his horse or kill him. There are lots of ways to kill a couched cav. You can even chamber the couched lance with a dagger and stab him in the face. You may say its not possible but I have seen it and done it myself several times(The chamber I mean). So if u are a good player doesn't really matter what you got , You can use your skills to overcome the situation but if you are simply not good enough you can come to the forums and whine about it to make it less powerful so you can kill a couched cav or they cant kill you easily so you play longer.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 16, 2015, 04:13:21 pm
Quote from: Guray on April 16, 2015, 09:47:00 am
I think its already overnerfed. No need for nerf anymore(In my opinion it should get buffed.It was better back then when people got 1 hit. Couched lances were frightening.Now I personally dont even care anymore when there is a cav charging at me with couched lance. It's wrong..). I can make that score with Horse/Shield/Sword. Doesn't really prove anything.

Edit : As a one handed cav , I don't fear couched cavs , I generally put my shield up and take the hit to my shield while turning the side of my horse to make couched cav stop after hit. And either kill his horse or kill him. There are lots of ways to kill a couched cav. You can even chamber the couched lance with a dagger and stab him in the face. You may say its not possible but I have seen it and done it myself several times(The chamber I mean). So if u are a good player doesn't really matter what you got , You can use your skills to overcome the situation but if you are simply not good enough you can come to the forums and whine about it to make it less powerful so you can kill a couched cav or they cant kill you easily so you play longer.

You cant balance cav going by other cav specs, because cav in general is already insanely strong. You can chamber couches, rarely does it hit the horse though. And also couches are always aiming for anal penetaration, so going by skill, the cav could be just as skilled in avoiding aware opponents, and by that avoid almost all threats.

Definitely not overnerfed.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Casimir on April 16, 2015, 05:51:39 pm
Well it's probably because cavalry is supposed to be more powerful than anything else in battle, the mounted knight was the most powerful force on the medieval battlefield and there's good reason why the majority of western Europe structured its society around producing and supporting such a method of war.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 16, 2015, 06:03:44 pm
Quote from: Casimir on April 16, 2015, 05:51:39 pm
Well it's probably because cavalry is supposed to be more powerful than anything else in battle, the mounted knight was the most powerful force on the medieval battlefield and there's good reason why the majority of western Europe structured its society around producing and supporting such a method of war.

I used to think this, but over time ive started to hate games who have certain things that are just simply stronger than the other options. My ideal cav i think would be tanky horse, nearly constant onehitting but the rider would also get onehit nearly every time infantry lands a swing on him.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Casimir on April 16, 2015, 06:11:42 pm
Probably impossible in the game because i assume speed bonuses are part of the core code and i don't see any other way to effect something like that.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 16, 2015, 06:14:39 pm
Quote from: Casimir on April 16, 2015, 06:11:42 pm
Probably impossible in the game because i assume speed bonuses are part of the core code and i don't see any other way to effect something like that.

Indeed, which is probably why we get these horse nerfs instead.. they're kind of poor but i guess something has to be done and thats the only solution...
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Casimir on April 16, 2015, 06:47:10 pm
Half a ton of angry frightened stallion with an equally angry frightened guy on the back charging at you would make anyone shit themselves.  I suggest we add this feature into cRPG before any nerfs to horse stats.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2015, 06:49:23 pm
Dunno why are we even discussing cav nerfs when ranged is the obvious issue. If cav were strong as some think they are, ranged would cry in tears because cavalry is counter for ranged.

OP is having issues with couched lance because he is STR build and avoiding couched lance is hard when you can't buzz around like bee on crack.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 16, 2015, 07:14:29 pm
Quote from: Leshma on April 16, 2015, 06:49:23 pm
Dunno why are we even discussing cav nerfs when ranged is the obvious issue. If cav were strong as some think they are, ranged would cry in tears because cavalry is counter for ranged.

OP is having issues with couched lance because he is STR build and avoiding couched lance is hard when you can't buzz around like bee on crack.

Ranged is generally weak except for the really good archers/xbowmen. Cav should counter ranged but it doesnt since horses cant tank many arrows, so instead of killing archers theyll just demolish infantry and win through that. Ranged counters cav, but cav can avoid everything if needed.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2015, 07:20:29 pm
Ranged is weak when there is up to five of them on 30 man server. When more than half the server is ranged, game is barely playable for melee.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Casimir on April 16, 2015, 07:26:46 pm
Quote from: HESKEYTIME on April 16, 2015, 06:51:44 pm
They're always bigger in person than I expect based on games.

Y'know how people are taller on average than they were back in medieval times? Wonder if it's the same for horses, or if they were similar size so proportionally bigger compared to people

Destriers and Courses are estimated to have been on average between 15 and 16 hands, so between 152.4 and 162.56 cm tall at their front 'shoulders'.  They were however of a wide gait and consideribly more muscular than modern horses of equivalent hight. Think of a draght horse that is the hight of a normal modern hunter.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on April 16, 2015, 07:27:12 pm
I dunno, feels like my team wins the less ranged it has as long as the infantry sticks together.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Krave on April 16, 2015, 07:55:50 pm
Quote from: Gravoth_iii on April 16, 2015, 07:14:29 pm
Cav should counter ranged but it doesnt since horses cant tank many arrows, so instead of killing archers theyll just demolish infantry and win through that.

True, I find less risky to charge melee ( even pole ) rather than ranged.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Gurnisson on April 16, 2015, 09:27:03 pm
Couch only lances are cheesy though, I think everyone can agree about that!
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Krex on April 16, 2015, 10:34:42 pm
Quote from: Gurnisson on April 16, 2015, 09:27:03 pm
Couch only lances are cheesy though, I think everyone can agree about that!
They are 22 STR, nuff said.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Algarn on April 16, 2015, 10:40:45 pm
Quote from: Krex on April 16, 2015, 10:34:42 pm
They are 22 STR, nuff said.

21STR.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Leshma on April 16, 2015, 11:03:38 pm
Great Lance can thrust in native. Also can be dragged left/right, which makes move back, lunge forward anti lance maneuver almost impossible (impossible against any half decent cav).

So yeah, cRPG cav not so bad after all and is only a shadow of native cavalry... ranged is comparable to native damage wise, but they have higher dps and much more arrows.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on April 17, 2015, 01:11:32 am
Quote from: Leshma on April 16, 2015, 06:49:23 pm
Dunno why are we even discussing cav nerfs when ranged is the obvious issue. If cav were strong as some think they are, ranged would cry in tears because cavalry is counter for ranged.

OP is having issues with couched lance because he is STR build and avoiding couched lance is hard when you can't buzz around like bee on crack.
Haha you caught me!

Now that i realise i won't have support for my first idea, it would be great that someone puts a post about the second idea which is about buffing lower horse. I don't know enough about horse to do a precise post about it. I personnaly think armored horse have enough hp, but didn't play enough with them to really know. And when I see gravoth saying horse are too hard to kill, I'm conforted in my opinion than people who don't play with specific horse don't know what they are talking about. Imo the greateats difficulty of cav (at least with rouncey) is to keep your horse alive and ppl don't know how much effort and the kills you renounce to keep it alive. It seems to me cav is balanced vs infantry (apart from couched) but ranged are way to powerfull against cav. Ranged dodge easily heavy cav and easily kill light cav.

Anyway as Gravoth said it, it will always be difficult to balance cav as they are so powerfull when coming from behind and so vulnerable when from frontside.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Rando on April 17, 2015, 07:32:47 am
I'm just as annoyed by being couched in the back as anyone else, but the idea of general infantryman surviving a couched lance hit and taking one more to die sounds even more ridiculous. You might be able to (barely) survive if you're a strength build with good plate, one of the very few rewards (if you can call it that) for playing a strength-based character these days - assuming you don't see the couched lance coming, of course. If you're an AGI build and see it coming there's 0 chance it will hit you unless you're playing with a Wii-mote.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Riddaren on April 17, 2015, 11:31:08 pm
Heavy lance / Lance
Couch lancing with these "short" lances is way more risky than thrust lancing with them due to decreased reach.
Furhermore thrusting deals more damage so there are quite few situations when you "should" couch lance.
I see no reason to change the couch lancing for these lances.

Build of Riddaren:
(click to show/hide)

Great lance
A big problem that I've mentioned like 10 times before is that it only needs 1 WPF in polearm to be 100% effective.
It's like you would only need 1 WPF in crossbow for maximum accuracy and reload time.

Sure, it deals high damage and has high reach but it has a fairly long cooldown and it requires more forward planning than using a heavy lance / lance.

Like with all classes, builds and play styles there are several skill levels.
This obviously includes the great lance or else I wouldn't be without any competition at the top.
I can't say it's easier than using a heavy lance or vice versa. It's just two different play styles.
If you think otherwise you just aren't at a high enough skill level.

Build of Matthaus, the 1H / great lance "hybrid":
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Krave on April 17, 2015, 11:51:30 pm
Do you see big difference between 6 - 7 riding? I think 21/21 is cool build, but I can't bear a thought of being too weak to equip flamberge and plate so I keep my 24/18 :D
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Riddaren on April 18, 2015, 12:29:10 pm
Quote from: Krave on April 17, 2015, 11:51:30 pm
Do you see big difference between 6 - 7 riding? I think 21/21 is cool build, but I can't bear a thought of being too weak to equip flamberge and plate so I keep my 24/18 :D

Yes, the difference between 6 and 7 is quite big. Specially if you are used to 7.
But the choice of agility and riding should match the horse you want to use.

27/12, rouncey
27/15, palfrey
24/18, courser
24/21, arabian warhorse, at level 35 with 8ps 7at 7ri 4wm.
Title: Re: Nerf couched lance
Post by: Leshma on April 18, 2015, 03:06:37 pm
That doesn't make much sense. For example, Slav horse requires just 5 riding but you'll feel threatened by other cav constantly if you put just five points in riding. With 6 riding it feels much better and is actually playable.