Nerf couched lance

[ecorcheur_brokar]

As you can see by the poll, I think the first thing that need to be fixed in cav, is the couched lance.
The amount of damage a couched lance can deal is enormous but the skills and the skill points requiered to manage to do it is minimal. Plus with the size of the lance used for it, the risk taken is pretty low.

To demonstrate it, I will compare couched lance with all the other things in crpg getting close to the amount of damage a couched can deal:
-couched vs xbow: Surely xbower take less risk than a cav couching, but almost no xbow can kill me in one shot. If an xbow is capable to kill me in one shot, it requiered skill to hs, and the reloading time is longer than the reloding time of a couched.

-couched vs 2h: a 2h to deal damage must get close and take risk. It requieres more skills to deal damage. And a lot of points have to be spent in weapon master, in athletics and in powerstrike. Whereas a couched only requieres 6 points in riding to be effective.

-couched vs lance on cav: This is imo the most illogical thing, a couched requieres less skill than a normal attack of cav-lance, as cav-lance got to hit at the right timing but couched deals more damage and is unblockable.

-couched vs 1h-cav: The amount of damage a 1h-cav is ridiculous compared with those of a couched. Even tho the 1h-cav must take a lot more of risk as he has to get closer to his prey, so he has more chance to get hit back and it gives more time for his prey to turn around. For exemple at the moment you hear a courser at full speed, you have 1 sec to react befor getting couched but you would have 2 sec to react to a 1h-cav and you need less time to react as you can block it.

-couched vs throwing: Same as xbow and 2h. It requieres more skills than couched but deal less damage. And it requieres a lot more of points spending, in athletic, in weapon master and in power throw.

I admit it is normal that cav-lance have an unblockable attack otherwise blocking down would be sufficient to counter them. But the damage needs to be nerfed or another suggestion that could be cool, is that after a couched has succeded the weapon is automatically dropped or broke to simulate to damage done to the lance on the impact.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

The other small adjustement I suggest is to give some HP to lower horses. As the patch of destiny has improve the damage than most player can deal by giving them more attribute and skill point. So now almost everyone can kill MW rouncey in one slash or one arrow, there is no much difference between a donkey and a MW rouncey from an arrow POV right now.

And also I'v seen that ashwood pike is now autorised on horse and I think it's a bit too op as ashwood is already on foot the second most op pole after the awlpike. So remove it again from horse.

[Krex]

Bullshit.
I dont have a cavchar atm, nor do I play much cRPG atm. But cav is the most castrated class in whole cRPG if you compare it to native or any other sane mod. You cant turn as in other mods, you arent as fast as in other mods(at least I feel like that, might be because of all these agiwhores), your lances angles are insanely small, the biggest lance (great lance) can ONLY be couched and requires 22str and your courser dies from 2 arrows to the ass. Cav is sooooooo OP in cRPG...
Also, you can easily dodge couched lances.
About your examples:
-couched vs xbow: couched "reloading time" is about the same as xbow, and it depends on having a horse or not. you can also camp with xbow, thats impossible as cav.
-couched vs 2h: you can, as I already said, easily dodge couched lances. you cant dodge 2h.
-couched vs lance on cav: Most people use Heavy Lances and with those you can outreach EVERY couched lances, even great lances.
-couched vs lance on cav: dodge. otherwise:shield. I havent seen any 1h cav without a shield when I was playing.
-Couched vs throwing: Hit the rider or dodge. Most people using throwing stuff have either a ton of agi or a shield that can save them.

Last but not least, you can chamber couched lances. So please, if you cant do any of the above, l2chamber and be happy.

The other small adjustement I suggest is to give some HP to lower horses. As the patch of destiny has improve the damage than most player can deal by giving them more attribute and skill point. So now almost everyone can kill MW rouncey in one slash or one arrow, there is no much difference between a donkey and a MW rouncey from an arrow POV right now.

True that, if you mean all horses by lower horses.

And also I'v seen that ashwood pike is now autorised on horse and I think it's a bit too op as ashwood is already on foot the second most op pole after the awlpike. So remove it again from horse.

In native they (read: me and my clan, many others too) use (long) awlpikes on horseback, which doesnt work in cRPG; therefor you got dem ashwoods on horseback. Also, they arent couchable, so you should have a hard time dealing with them...

TL;DR: Cav is castrated enough, let them use their couched lances.

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First serious reply to a suggestion that might start some kind of a discussion, do I get an award?

[ecorcheur_brokar]

You can see my post is absolutely not about nerfing cav in general. I even do the comparison between couched lance and other type of cav weaponery to demonstrate the imbalance inside the cav. And ask for some buff on other part of cav thing.

The shield on cav is inefficient as most coucher will aim for the horse. And anyway most coucher run away from cav duel and refuse them. They just go for collecting noob and people not paying enough attention.

You make it look like it's so easy to dodge couched but when you look at what is happening on the server. 90% of the couched are from behind. Let's say it's people fault for not paying attention but the problem is, if those people didnt pay attention for any other class, the punishment wouldn't be so severe. The punishment is especially hard for STR as all the point spend in IF or heavy armor are useless because couched will kill you no matter what.

Secondly if you look at what is happening on server, you'll see that 30% of polearm on foot will get couched even if the cav is coming toward them.

By lower horse, I mean rouncey mostly. Arabian and desert are overused and if they receive a buff, the tendency will get even worse. About other horse I have no opinion as I don't play enough with them.

Comparison with other mods is irrelevant imo, this is crpg, not another mod.

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You would have received an award if you supported my opinion but thx for debate anyway.

[Casul]

The only thing about cav atm is Oberyn with his bumblance-ashwood tactic and some barabes with ACS with 8 riding on arabian horse, turning faster than... no sorry, just fast, too fast.

brokar might be right somehow, but great lance cav is pretty rare these days anyway so thers is not that much to do imo

[matt2507]

great lance cav is pretty rare these days

You got one in your clan, it's already enough !
Couch lance is for no balls spawnkillers cavs, nerf it !

[Casul]

You got one in your clan, i t' s already enough !

fixed.

[Krave]

And a lot of points have to be spent in weapon master, in athletics and in powerstrike. Whereas a couched only requieres 6 points in riding to be effective.

You need ps, wm and ath ( horses can be put down by 2 arrows, performance on ground is needed ) as well as infantry, but you need riding skill too. Can't even imagine lance/shield cav build with more than 6 riding.

I agree, 6 riding is effective. So is 6 ath in my 27/18 pole. What's the point?

[ecorcheur_brokar]

I witnessed people like matheus to take the krems exemple killing only with couched lance 8 people in one round without difficulty and then their horse is killed but the job is already pretty much done.

My point is that if you wanted to troll and only put point in riding, you could and do impressive damages (luckily nobody ever did it because it must be boring).

The result of the poll is really surprising me, because on the serv you see so many people being couch at spawn or getting couch from their back and dying instantly. Maybe people are masochist and love it...dunno

[Casul]

From 100 points I have to spend in different server problems, couche lance cav gets 5 max and 100% headshooting, pointy archers over 200 meters get 95 points. 

QGT

[Leshma]

The only thing about cav atm is Oberyn with his bumblance-ashwood tactic

Using Oberyn as argument against cav in cRPG is like using Atze/Chase as argument against 2H, claiming how it is too strong class. Oberyn is one of top three cav on EU side since the inception of this mod (other two being Tommy and the guy who's nick I can't remember anymore).

Cav in cRPG is weak compared to native, as Krex pointed out. Although cav in native is too strong imho.

Bump lance/slash is valid cav tactics just like hiltslashing and chambering is for infantry combat. I'm not fan of any of those "advanced" moves Warband engine allows but without them game would be too dull as Logen once said.

[ecorcheur_brokar]

You forgot torben too.

But what saddens me is that they do the same score than any cav-coucher and when I'm cav myself it's really hard to do anything against cav-coucher as they will avoid any confrontation, only back and afk kill.

[Krave]

That's because great lances aren't suited well to cav-cav fight. You got 1 hit, than you need to switch to secondary wep.

[Grumbs]

Horses take way too much damage from ranged atm. Not sure how to fix it besides just buffing their armour or nerfing ranged damage.

Couching only adds annoyance to the game. If you want to stab someone in the back at least let them block if they are aware. Chambering a couch is a joke if you think that is a fair counter to someone literally pressing 1 button and aiming their horses towards you. Jumping out the way isn't always possible and will get you bumped sometimes. Not saying couching is OP atm, but your poll doesn't give the option of whether it should be buffed or not

Counching is on the level of people hiding all round and taking pot shots at people - its not something with enough built in counters for the reward it gives the player - its one sided or passive gameplay

[Rebelyell]

yea cav needs buff if anything, old lance angle.... I beg you.