Now poleaxe has more cut damage and it became the dream weapon of spamming game killers , they can hiltslash and spam you 24/7 with that weapon this doesn't make sense neither in balance or realism.I suggest you to reduce it's speed so STR based builds will use it regularly as usual and agility based characters will turn to Long Hafted Blade, which should be the weapon they get to play spammy already.I am not saying you're mad but you're mad xD
i think he wants to complain about rightswingpolearmhighwpfinstahitmadness
Now poleaxe has more cut damage and it became the dream weapon of spamming game killers , they can hiltslash and spam you 24/7 with that weapon this doesn't make sense neither in balance or realism.I suggest you to reduce it's speed so STR based builds will use it regularly as usual and agility based characters will turn to Long Hafted Blade, which should be the weapon they get to play spammy already.
Or overbuffedoverheadinstahitbeforeanimation?
But IMO poleaxe isn't superior over other polearms. There's a good selection of spammy poles, it's just a matter or which style of weapon you wanna use.
In other words, yes a 94 speed poleaxe will often hit before a 99 longsword, all other things being equal, no matter how ridiculous that may sound.Only at very close range.
People seem to forget that the speed rating of all polearms is a lie. Or rather, a misleading characteristic that doesn't translate to something you should pay much attention to due to the differences between pole and other animations.
In other words, yes a 94 speed poleaxe will often hit before a 99 longsword, all other things being equal, no matter how ridiculous that may sound.
Except a 99 speed longsword can thrust and outrange any poleaxe attack direction.
Only at very close range.
Edit: and only for the right swing*
If both players stand still, yes. If they don't the poleaxe user has a massive advantage because his stab is only marginally shorter while at the same time must quicker to reach full extension.
I disagree
I don't think I've ever outstabbed a longsworder with my poleaxe.If you try to outreach any 2h stab with right pole swing you would have a lot of enjoyment, because if you do it right you almost never fail. And yes i'm also talking about danish GS and alike, though it's much easier with LS or Bastards. You can also do it with 1h arabrightswing but that's another story.
Polearms are by a huge margin the best weapons, and poleaxe amongst the best of the polearms. I see no reason to QQ tho: Poleaxe should be best weapon, it was pinnacle of european melee weapon technology. It really is the best and its ingame abilities reflect that: you get to rear horses, outrange 2handers, knockdown, give pike support, spam everyone. It's best because it really IS best. End of thread.:lol:
I don't think I've ever outstabbed a longsworder with my poleaxe.
Polearms are by a huge margin the best weapons, and poleaxe amongst the best of the polearms. I see no reason to QQ tho: Poleaxe should be best weapon, it was pinnacle of european melee weapon technology. It really is the best and its ingame abilities reflect that: you get to rear horses, outrange 2handers, knockdown, give pike support, spam everyone. It's best because it really IS best. End of thread.
With a longsword the 2 hand animations are much more tricky to read
I'd rather stab with a 1 hander if its against players
I think that's a good argument for expensive poleaxes, but I'd rather see its rendition changed to something less horribly spammy. Also, Glaive, GLA and GLB should definitely be unbalanced and slow as hell, I don't think there's even a debate about that.
Whenever I see a Poleaxe user, I just say to myself "thank god he's not using a Long Axe". Long Axe right swing and overheads are so fast they barely render an animation on the screen.
Longsword seems downright sluggish compared to the faster polearms lately.
In other words, yes a 94 speed poleaxe will often hit before a 99 longsword, all other things being equal, no matter how ridiculous that may sound.
Only at very close range.
Edit: and only for the right swing*
I disagreeProvide proof. I've already explained the animations, sweet spot mechanics, and how it is that only at close range is the polearm right swing able to hit for full damage sooner than any other swing, several times in the past. If you can actually manage to provide proof, I have no issues adjusting the animation to fix the problem (if possible.)
Provide proof. I've already explained the animations, sweet spot mechanics, and how it is that only at close range is the polearm right swing able to hit for full damage sooner than any other swing, several times in the past. If you can actually manage to provide proof, I have no issues adjusting the animation to fix the problem (if possible.)
Providing proof would require substantial video evidence due to the difficulty of creating an isolated environment showcasing the problem, and I don't have the time and resources necessary to provide that. You wouldn't be receptive anyway if you believe all is fine already. The perception that polearm animations are skipping frames and jerky in general is widespread, even more so when it comes to overheads (yet I have no way to prove this statement).Except that I DO believe there is a problem, just not the one you're implying. The polearm overhead is certainly fast, but I'm not sure that it's in need of tweaking though. I don't see this jerkiness people talk about, instead I see lag, packet loss, height advantages and close proximity, all of which can cause poles to hit sooner.
Maybe its an FPS or refresh rate issue? It doesn't look like it skips frames to me.That's actually a myth. Any differences in chamber speed are solely due to the speed stat of the individual weapon. All swing directions are 350ms in length base (base, meaning 350 ms and then any factors such as wpf or weapon speed that would reduce the length, can then be applied), and all thrusts are the base 350 with an additional 30ms added (380ms).
There are some differences between the weapons that encourage you to play a certain way with them. Chambering a polearm swing takes longer - that means you need to do more when you release so its not easily blocked, or you use holds more which hit faster and you turn more into the swing. 2 handers chamber fast so you can use that part of the animation to trick people with feints. That doesn't really work with poles so you need to be more tricky with how you play with the second part of the animation
Maybe its not speed, but chambering with a pole and 2 hand looks and feels very different to me. I can switch from one direction to another with a 2 hander and people have to react to the different direction. If I do that with a polearm im not going to trick anyone, it just feels slower to me anywayI think it's something else entirely. Take for example the Sword of War, Highland Claymore or worse still, the Heavy Great Sword. You can do the same feint maneuvers with these weapons that you'd do with the German or Danish Greatswords (which are slower) but they'll be easier to read and thus less effective. This is noted by just about everyone who uses these weapons, and really the only apparently likely cause, is simply that they're easier to see. The models themselves are both wider and brighter than the twin greatswords.
Did you make the animation timing changes in the module or Brf?Depends.
Tydeus, I thought I had read you saying that polearm overhead was accidentally sped up too much? In any case, that shit needs tweaking. It is stupendously fast and broken, it seems to have a normal chamber time, but then the swing releases much faster than any other swing. You can pull of some bullshit spam hits with that against much faster weapons. It's like a 95 speed weapon is suddenly 100 speed when the overhead releases, it speeds up visibly compared to the chamber animation. The speed up seems to have also broken hit detection, which was a lot better before it. It's like the hit detection doesn't know that the animation has been significantly sped up and lags behind it. Haven't bothered playing English Bill ever since the speed up, while I absolutely love that weapon, simply because hitting overheads is too unreliable.
Depends.
In some cases both were changed, most changes were specifically brf edits though. In most cases I kept the frame count exactly as it was (aside perhaps from the polearm overhead, I can't recall exactly.) I started by analyzing the animation, figuring out where the arm was at any given point in time, since the objective was to equalize swings/make them more intuitive to use. It's not something that you can do perfectly unless the weapon actually rotates around a center point and keeps its angle orientation, neither of these ever happen though. Anyway, after analyzing the animation I'd figure out what frames needed moved where so that the actual beefy part of the swing (where most of the motion takes place) would remain in tact, and unchanged. Most of the time this simply meant removing some of the earlier frames (ex, removing frame 3,5,7 as to keep the overall weapon path the same since warband blends between frames if it needs to) and adding frames near the end to keep the total frame count the same.
Tydeus, I thought I had read you saying that polearm overhead was accidentally sped up too much?I certainly did say that. The overhead and the right swing at very close range, are the cases "that I have... already detailed specifically in the past."
ready_durn = 0.35
blend_in_ready = arf_blend_in_6
blend_in_release = arf_blend_in_5
["ready_overswing_twohanded", acf_overswing, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_use_inertia|amf_keep|amf_client_owner_prediction,
[ready_durn, "attacks_twohanded_overswing", 11, 26, blend_in_ready],
],
["release_overswing_twohanded", acf_overswing, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_play|amf_continue_to_next,
[0.61, "attacks_twohanded_overswing", 26, 55, blend_in_release],
],
["ready_overswing_staff", acf_overswing, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_use_inertia|amf_keep|amf_client_owner_prediction,
[ready_durn, "attacks_staff_uptodown", 9, 26, blend_in_ready],
],
["release_overswing_staff", acf_overswing, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_play|amf_continue_to_next,
[0.6, "attacks_staff_uptodown_updated", 26, 61, blend_in_release],
["ready_overswing_onehanded", acf_overswing|acf_enforce_rightside, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_use_inertia|amf_keep|amf_client_owner_prediction|amf_rider_rot_overswing,
[ready_durn, "attacks_single_overswing", 5, 16, blend_in_ready],
],
["release_overswing_onehanded", acf_overswing|acf_enforce_rightside, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_play|amf_rider_rot_overswing|amf_continue_to_next,
[0.6, "attacks_single_overswing", 16, 37, blend_in_release],
],
The polearm overhead is certainly fast, but I'm not sure that it's in need of tweaking though. I don't see this jerkiness people talk about, instead I see lag, packet loss, height advantages and close proximity, all of which can cause poles to hit sooner.
Haven't bothered playing English Bill ever since the speed up, while I absolutely love that weapon, simply because hitting overheads is too unreliable.I've actually been using the Swiss a lot lately, and been doing extremely well with it on my 18/27 build. I'm able to use my s key + a/d to move away from people's swings to allow myself more time to get the overhead to land. Of course, this only ever works against feints/holds or those that don't turn into their swings enough. I miss a lot of overheads, sure, but I do the same with 1h and 2h likely because I play with 65-85 ping.
poleaxe users like Habi disgust me in how hard they hit.You're just bad at the game. Also, l2footwork!
how i hate poleaxe and it being faster than my mw hafted blade at all times for some reason :|
he just aims to the side and hits me with 0.001 seconds of the animation. fuck habi manReally, the earliest a polearm can hit with current mechanics, is about 25% of the way through his right swing animation, and that's only if he's face hugging. The reason he can do that, is because he hits you (serverside) with, or close to, his right fist (where the weapon's hit bar originates). When the right fist first enters the sweetspot, the vast majority of the rest of the collision bar (weapon) is still angled back, away from the guy being swung at.
Nah, just gave the general answer we "scrubs" get from the real "veterans" of the mod. Shit is balanced, we're just terribad at playing. :DAt least we're being honest here. :lol:
We would've had it if we had made the full WSE transition =)
That would have been a huge boost to realism/balance/depth if polearms did massive damage (but only at the end of the weapon) while swords did moderate damage at any distance. Oh well, hopefully in M:BG.
One thing that bothers me is how the Bec secondary is way more damaging than the Poleaxe secondary.
Poleaxe secondary is the 50th cherry on the cake. Due to this the poleaxe got duel stats and additionally is adapted to every possible melee situation: polestabs against cav, shield bonus against shields and blunt + knockdown against armor.
Poleaxe blunt is strictly worse than the cut side for doing damage to all armor values. The only advantage blunt offers is knockdown (and no bonus against shield).
It's better due to blunt being better at negating damage soak.It's not that simple. In most cases, the cut side will do more damage.
It's not that simple. In most cases, the cut side will do more damage.
in most cases, i get 1hit by Breads Bec. 3 if and 15 str with 45 armor. lulz
Tank much!?
Honestly, I don't think it's the bec that's too damaging, just pierce in general. (That morning star :O)
Could do with a slight tweak in armour resistance. (imo)
Pierce it's fine, it's cut swings that are bloody weak.
It's quite complicated. The paradigm changes for low damage values, medium values, and high values.
I'd like to see the soak/reduce formulas changed so there is a situation (other than a naked peasant, who would get 1-shot regardless) where cut damage is superior to pierce/blunt. I think the pierce soak curve should be WAY flatter, so a Bec might do 20 dmg against a guy in plate, but only 25 dmg to an archer in cloth (instead of 40+ dmg now). And blunt should have a totally different mechanic than pierce, unlike now where they are nearly identical. For instance, blunt could deal lower damage but knockdown duration could increase with armor (i.e. it should be harder to get back up when wearing full plate).
Edit: can you go into more detail with this point?
From what I understand, there's a cap in damage, but what do mean by half the raw damage? Raw damage without speed/hold bonuses = half the factors affecting raw damage?
That would make the bec weaker than espada eslavona swings. Speed bonus accounts for higher damage than what's shown on the calc in the average case. Lance cav would end up dealing close to 0 damage in almost all cases to everything as well. Speed bonus affects all damage types equally, minus a few points of damage for cut against good armor.
The only data that is important in the pictures are the weapon damages (which is +8 for cut) and the graph curves. The high damage curve follows what speed bonus/held attacks would look like, while low damage attacks consider how low pierce stabs, sweetspots, and the peasant experience would work.
Oh, then raw damage is a moot point if the focus is only directed to final damage. Disregarding the feasibility of such a suggestion, messing with the formula in-between speed bonus and the like will just lead to more complications.
Currently, the bec deals similar damage to a 50-51c weapon at armor above 60 and a 46c weapon against 40 armor. Compared to the poleaxes, those are pretty decent tradeoffs for medium armor and below, admittedly on the slightly powerful side depending on how much the bonus vs shield and reach differences are valued. If too many artifical additions are added, however, people will just choose weapons without them that deal damage that's good enough in all scenarios.