Author Topic: poleaxe  (Read 6251 times)

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Offline Rhaelys

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2014, 12:49:26 am »
+1
Poleaxe secondary is the 50th cherry on the cake. Due to this the poleaxe got duel stats and additionally is adapted to every possible melee situation: polestabs against cav, shield bonus against shields and blunt + knockdown against armor.

Poleaxe blunt is strictly worse than the cut side for doing damage to all armor values. The only advantage blunt offers is knockdown (and no bonus against shield).
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Offline Kafein

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2014, 03:41:48 pm »
0
Poleaxe blunt is strictly worse than the cut side for doing damage to all armor values. The only advantage blunt offers is knockdown (and no bonus against shield).

It's better due to blunt being better at negating damage soak.

Offline Tydeus

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2014, 03:59:51 pm »
+5
It's better due to blunt being better at negating damage soak.
It's not that simple. In most cases, the cut side will do more damage.
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Offline AwesomeHail

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2014, 07:28:08 pm »
0
It's not that simple. In most cases, the cut side will do more damage.

in most cases, i get 1hit by Breads Bec. 3 if and 15 str with 45 armor. lulz
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Offline Senni__Ti

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2014, 07:57:59 pm »
0
in most cases, i get 1hit by Breads Bec. 3 if and 15 str with 45 armor. lulz

Tank much!?

Honestly, I don't think it's the bec that's too damaging, just pierce in general. (That morning star :O)
Could do with a slight tweak in armour resistance. (imo)

Offline Kafein

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2014, 12:22:36 am »
0
Tank much!?

Honestly, I don't think it's the bec that's too damaging, just pierce in general. (That morning star :O)
Could do with a slight tweak in armour resistance. (imo)

Pierce it's fine, it's cut swings that are bloody weak.

Warband combat is at its finest when fights are intense and room for error is minimal. This is the reason Native duelers wear cloth. In cRPG however, armor, IF and STR compound, transforming people into HP sponges straight out of japanese action RPGs.

Offline Phew

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2014, 06:37:40 pm »
0
Pierce it's fine, it's cut swings that are bloody weak.

Agreed. A +3 Bec does 35-50% more damage against the typical cRPG melee player than a +3 Longsword, all else being equal. Reach on swings is pretty similar between the two, 2h gets lolstab but that's balanced by horse rearing and better nudges (without having to press X) with pole. "Effective speed" is the same between the two, possibly even better on the Bec, since it has wider sweetspots thanks to pierce. 2h used to have better animations, but now pole has these crazy jerky animations that are actually less predictable in a duel situation, so that advantage is gone. All of the above is why 2h is a dying breed compared to pole lately.

I'd like to see the soak/reduce formulas changed so there is a situation (other than a naked peasant, who would get 1-shot regardless) where cut damage is superior to pierce/blunt. I think the pierce soak curve should be WAY flatter, so a Bec might do 20 dmg against a guy in plate, but only 25 dmg to an archer in cloth (instead of 40+ dmg now). And blunt should have a totally different mechanic than pierce, unlike now where they are nearly identical. For instance, blunt could deal lower damage but knockdown duration could increase with armor (i.e. it should be harder to get back up when wearing full plate).
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 07:54:52 pm by Phew »

Offline San

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2014, 07:50:33 pm »
0
@Phew

It's quite complicated. The paradigm changes for low damage values, medium values, and high values.

Notice the graph in the picture below. Cut damages are +8 of what's shown.

Current:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Altered:
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Using

   var armor_soak_factor_against_cut = 0.85; (current = 0.65, old = 0.8)
   var armor_soak_factor_against_pierce = 0.7; (current = 0.5, old = 0.65)
   var armor_soak_factor_against_blunt = 0.2; (current = 0.4, old = 0.5)

   var armor_reduction_factor_against_cut = 1; (current = 1.6, old = 1)
   var armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce = 0.7; (current = 1.1, old = 0.5)
   var armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt = 1.7; (current = 1.3, old = 0.75)

The reduction of random damage changed a lot. Even with these changes, it's not so simple. Looking at the curves for low damage, that shrinks sweetspots even more for instance. Even so, it's hard to say if it's even better than the current version, though there is more of a difference between types. You can only balance the damage relationship that you like for one damage range, with the newer curves being balanced around the middle range of damage. The other two ranges will be different from what you want each time. Heck, what I tweaked may actually buff the morningstar/bec and nerf everything else under pierce. Perhaps the values for blunt and pierce should be switched.

Edit: Might like this better, different scaling for cut/pierce

   var armor_soak_factor_against_cut = 0.85;
   var armor_soak_factor_against_pierce = 0.65;
   var armor_soak_factor_against_blunt = 0.2;
   var armor_reduction_factor_against_cut = 1.1;
   var armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce = 0.85;
   var armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt = 1.7;
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 08:31:32 pm by San »

Offline Phew

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2014, 08:24:49 pm »
0
It's quite complicated. The paradigm changes for low damage values, medium values, and high values.

Could you clarify what you are showing? Is "Altered" your proposal, or an attempt to manifest what I described in my previous post?

My proposal could be implemented by using the current soak/reduce formula, just putting a simple cap on final damage from pierce weapons at half the "raw" damage (where "raw" doesn't include speed bonus, just the stated weapon damage modified by power strike+str+wpf+body location). This solves two problems:
-Weapons like the bec/morningstar would no longer 1-shot everyone in less than mail; they would become decidedly sub-optimal for hacking up ninjas and archers
-Agility players could no longer deliver massive damage against targets in medium armor just by abusing speed bonus with thrust weapons, but their solid damage against plate would remain the same

The only major problem I see is that spears/pikes would barely hurt unarmored horses, but this could be remedied by adding your "Bonus against cavalry" tag where applicable. But otherwise, it lets pierce retain its can-opener attribute while limiting its efficacy against low-medium armor. Cut would be 2-3 times better for hacking up archers/ninjas/peasants, as opposed to now where cut shines at nothing.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 08:30:14 pm by Phew »

Offline San

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2014, 08:32:22 pm »
0
Trying to simulate this:

Quote
I'd like to see the soak/reduce formulas changed so there is a situation (other than a naked peasant, who would get 1-shot regardless) where cut damage is superior to pierce/blunt. I think the pierce soak curve should be WAY flatter, so a Bec might do 20 dmg against a guy in plate, but only 25 dmg to an archer in cloth (instead of 40+ dmg now). And blunt should have a totally different mechanic than pierce, unlike now where they are nearly identical. For instance, blunt could deal lower damage but knockdown duration could increase with armor (i.e. it should be harder to get back up when wearing full plate).

All pierce weapons need to be lowered to 10-20 to have that flat of a curve, though, which is accomplished by having no reduction and low soak.

Edit: can you go into more detail with this point?

"My proposal could be implemented by using the current soak/reduce formula, just putting a simple cap on final damage from pierce weapons at half the "raw" damage (where "raw" doesn't include speed bonus, just the stated weapon damage modified by power strike+str+wpf+body location)."

From what I understand, there's a cap in damage, but what do mean by half the raw damage? Raw damage without speed/hold bonuses = half the factors affecting raw damage?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 08:38:39 pm by San »

Offline Phew

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2014, 08:37:34 pm »
+1
Edit: can you go into more detail with this point?
From what I understand, there's a cap in damage, but what do mean by half the raw damage? Raw damage without speed/hold bonuses = half the factors affecting raw damage?

For instance, +3 Bec (37p), same stats as you posted. Raw dmg is 64. Leave the curve the same, except cap the final damage at half this (32). Hitting the head would increase the cap, but speed bonus would not. Not sure about hold damage, but I think it should work out so that there is NOTHING you can do with a pierce weapon to one-shot a lvl 30 player in medium armor all around (edit: other than couching, duh). 

Pierce should be for good damage against heavy armor and solid, predictable damage against everyone else. Not 1-shotting everyone in medium armor and 2-3 shotting people in heavy armor. At least make them work as harder to kill people in medium armor and below.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 08:51:40 pm by Phew »

Offline San

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2014, 08:50:16 pm »
0
That would make the bec weaker than espada eslavona swings. Speed bonus accounts for higher damage than what's shown on the calc in the average case. Lance cav would end up dealing close to 0 damage in almost all cases to everything as well. Speed bonus affects all damage types equally, minus a few points of damage for cut against good armor.

The only data that is important in the pictures are the weapon damages (which is +8 for cut) and the graph curves. The high damage curve follows what speed bonus/held attacks would look like, while low damage attacks consider how low pierce stabs, sweetspots, and the peasant experience would work.

Offline Phew

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2014, 08:57:50 pm »
0
That would make the bec weaker than espada eslavona swings. Speed bonus accounts for higher damage than what's shown on the calc in the average case. Lance cav would end up dealing close to 0 damage in almost all cases to everything as well. Speed bonus affects all damage types equally, minus a few points of damage for cut against good armor.

The only data that is important in the pictures are the weapon damages (which is +8 for cut) and the graph curves. The high damage curve follows what speed bonus/held attacks would look like, while low damage attacks consider how low pierce stabs, sweetspots, and the peasant experience would work.

This cap is on the final damage delivered; half raw is still a lot of damage in most cases. In this example, the Bec would still do twice the damage against 30 armor as an espada swing, it just wouldn't one-shot the guy anymore.

 It would hurt lance cav against lightly-armored foes, but otherwise they would still usually take 2 non-couched hits like before. Perhaps you could remove/increase the cap at a certain speed bonus threshold if it hits lance cav too hard? My chief objective is to make weapons like the bec have to work harder to kill light-medium armored foes, I don't have any opinions about cavalry damage.

There is a realism element here as well; a puncture wound will cause about the same tissue damage whether you are naked or wearing leather. A sword swing, however, has much more capacity to deliver a mortal blow to a naked dude than a nail on a stick, for instance.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 09:17:59 pm by Phew »

Offline San

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2014, 09:22:36 pm »
0
Oh, then raw damage is a moot point if the focus is only directed to final damage. Disregarding the feasibility of such a suggestion, messing with the formula in-between speed bonus and the like will just lead to more complications.

Currently, the bec deals similar damage to a 50-51c weapon at armor above 60 and a 46c weapon against 40 armor. Compared to the poleaxes, those are pretty decent tradeoffs for medium armor and below, admittedly on the slightly powerful side depending on how much the bonus vs shield and reach differences are valued. If too many artifical additions are added, however, people will just choose weapons without them that deal damage that's good enough in all scenarios.

Offline Phew

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Re: poleaxe
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2014, 09:38:31 pm »
+1
Oh, then raw damage is a moot point if the focus is only directed to final damage. Disregarding the feasibility of such a suggestion, messing with the formula in-between speed bonus and the like will just lead to more complications.

Currently, the bec deals similar damage to a 50-51c weapon at armor above 60 and a 46c weapon against 40 armor. Compared to the poleaxes, those are pretty decent tradeoffs for medium armor and below, admittedly on the slightly powerful side depending on how much the bonus vs shield and reach differences are valued. If too many artifical additions are added, however, people will just choose weapons without them that deal damage that's good enough in all scenarios.

I was proposing capping final pierce damage at half raw damage; raw damage isn't "moot" if it's the independent variable.

It's not so much an issue of internal polearm balance, since the comparable cut polearms to the Bec all have bonus vs. shield like you said. I now see people choosing the Bec over 2H weapons like the Longsword/HBS at an increasing rate; one day on siege recently over half of the melee players were using Becs. The choice might be less clear-cut if Becs no longer had the capacity to one-shot everyone in light-medium armor (heck, I've been one-shotted several times with Becs/Awlpikes with my 58 head armor, 58HP), and were more focused on "can opening" like their historical role.