poleaxe

[Kafein]

To be more precise, the polearm swing animations are much harder to follow (for me and an undefined amount of people) than 2h and 1h swings, even when comparing very slow polearms with very fast 1h or 2h. The problem seems related to the animation frames. It seems that either most of the frames are in the end of the animation and there are too few early frames, or the animation simply skips some of the frames. Lag and packet loss are problems distinct from what I described, that affect all weapons equally (although you could argue slower weapons benefit the most), which isn't the case of the polearm jerkiness which is reproducible regardless of network stability.

[Grumbs]

Maybe its an FPS or refresh rate issue? It doesn't look like it skips frames to me.

There are some differences between the weapons that encourage you to play a certain way with them. Chambering a polearm swing takes longer - that means you need to do more when you release so its not easily blocked, or you use holds more which hit faster and you turn more into the swing. 2 handers chamber fast so you can use that part of the animation to trick people with feints. That doesn't really work with poles so you need to be more tricky with how you play with the second part of the animation

[Tydeus]

Maybe its an FPS or refresh rate issue? It doesn't look like it skips frames to me.

There are some differences between the weapons that encourage you to play a certain way with them. Chambering a polearm swing takes longer - that means you need to do more when you release so its not easily blocked, or you use holds more which hit faster and you turn more into the swing. 2 handers chamber fast so you can use that part of the animation to trick people with feints. That doesn't really work with poles so you need to be more tricky with how you play with the second part of the animation

That's actually a myth. Any differences in chamber speed are solely due to the speed stat of the individual weapon. All swing directions are 350ms in length base (base, meaning 350 ms and then any factors such as wpf or weapon speed that would reduce the length, can then be applied), and all thrusts are the base 350 with an additional 30ms added (380ms).

[Grumbs]

Maybe its not speed, but chambering with a pole and 2 hand looks and feels very different to me. I can switch from one direction to another with a 2 hander and people have to react to the different direction. If I do that with a polearm im not going to trick anyone, it just feels slower to me anyway

[Rhaelys]

Because with a 2H you have the grace and dexterity of a riverdancer, while with a polearm you lack any finesse.

[MURDERTRON]

I'm pretty sure there is animation skipping with all weapon types in WSE2, it's just most apparent with polearms because they're the longest.

And to be fair, I'm not running a Europoor computer.  I have it capped at a solid 100 FPS, so it's not an issue of "FPS lag" aka a shitty computer.

Computer specs in case anyone's wondering.

(click to show/hide)

Core i7-2600k
16GB DDR3-1866
256GB Sata3 SSD
GTX670 2GB @2560x1440

[Tydeus]

Maybe its not speed, but chambering with a pole and 2 hand looks and feels very different to me. I can switch from one direction to another with a 2 hander and people have to react to the different direction. If I do that with a polearm im not going to trick anyone, it just feels slower to me anyway

I think it's something else entirely. Take for example the Sword of War, Highland Claymore or worse still, the Heavy Great Sword. You can do the same feint maneuvers with these weapons that you'd do with the German or Danish Greatswords (which are slower) but they'll be easier to read and thus less effective. This is noted by just about everyone who uses these weapons, and really the only apparently likely cause, is simply that they're easier to see. The models themselves are both wider and brighter than the twin greatswords.

If we extrapolate this reasoning to make a comparison between two-handed weapons and polearms, the same could be said for polearms. They all have thick wooden shafts that don't blend in well with their surroundings(or perhaps to some, they do.) and are thus easy to see. Furthermore, these axe heads are also very wide and thick, something that could again contribute to being easy to read.

For anyone who fought Saul when he was using the Poleaxe, you undoubtedly know there is a right way and a wrong way to feint with polearms. Even just last week I was personally complemented on a finishing blow's feint with a german poleaxe in a duel. Another case you could look at, would be the War Spear. Speed wise, it's not fast, it's pretty much middle of the road. Yet many people actually have problems blocking war spears from the more skilled users (Big Sandwich?), even though they're a measly 95/96 speed. I'm just not certain that you need anything other than flawed human perception to explain the afore mentioned cases (those that I have not already detailed specifically in the past.)

[Senni__Ti]

What I've noticed since the animation changes is that, it's now a hell of a lot harder to chamber polearm swings compared to the other weapons.

I'm one of those fighters who tries to chamber pretty much everything. This usually means when I opponent holds, I'm going to have to quickly react and block. Being an inverse attacker, there is a delay as I move the mouse in the other direction and block. With 2h and 1h, I can in most cases get the block in place, with polearms it's the opposite, with most cases resulting in me taking damage.

More along the same lines, I've seen duelists do exceedingly well with simple holds and spam (it's a valid tactic) with polearms. Yet in order to do just aswell with a 2h (of the same speed), you would need to feint and or chamber also.

I've always found polearm animations to be on the snappier side, even before the animation changes (which were needed). I just feel they were made a little too snappy.

From a 2h point of view, I see that polearms have great diversity, with many possible playstyles. Being able to switch between a supporting polearm and more solo based weapon on the fly. (Not forgetting lances and pikes)
And with the animation change, the 4d polearms are every bit of the 2h equivalent. They tend to be longer on the swings, 'feel' faster comparing similar weapon speeds and tend to be higher in dmg.

I guess to me, it's like when the 2h stab was changed to a shorter animation. Lots of build up time, but almost instant release -> extension.
Ultimately decided to be OP and reverted. (Rightly so)

In terms of what I'd like to see:
-A smoother progression for polearm swings
-polearm speed boost if required

When I get back from dinner I'll make some examples.
Did you make the animation timing changes in the module or Brf?

[Tydeus]

Did you make the animation timing changes in the module or Brf?

Depends.

In some cases both were changed, most changes were specifically brf edits though. In most cases I kept the frame count exactly as it was (aside perhaps from the polearm overhead, I can't recall exactly.) I started by analyzing the animation, figuring out where the arm was at any given point in time, since the objective was to equalize swings/make them more intuitive to use. It's not something that you can do perfectly unless the weapon actually rotates around a center point and keeps its angle orientation, neither of these ever happen though. Anyway, after analyzing the animation I'd figure out what frames needed moved where so that the actual beefy part of the swing (where most of the motion takes place) would remain in tact, and unchanged. Most of the time this simply meant removing some of the earlier frames (ex, removing frame 3,5,7 as to keep the overall weapon path the same since warband blends between frames if it needs to) and adding frames near the end to keep the total frame count the same.

[Teeth]

Tydeus, I thought I had read you saying that polearm overhead was accidentally sped up too much? In any case, that shit needs tweaking. It is stupendously fast and broken, it seems to have a normal chamber time, but then the swing releases much faster than any other swing. You can pull of some bullshit spam hits with that against much faster weapons. It's like a 95 speed weapon is suddenly 100 speed when the overhead releases, it speeds up visibly compared to the chamber animation. The speed up seems to have also broken hit detection, which was a lot better before it. It's like the hit detection doesn't know that the animation has been significantly sped up and lags behind it. Haven't bothered playing English Bill ever since the speed up, while I absolutely love that weapon, simply because hitting overheads is too unreliable.

[Phew]

Tydeus, I thought I had read you saying that polearm overhead was accidentally sped up too much? In any case, that shit needs tweaking. It is stupendously fast and broken, it seems to have a normal chamber time, but then the swing releases much faster than any other swing. You can pull of some bullshit spam hits with that against much faster weapons. It's like a 95 speed weapon is suddenly 100 speed when the overhead releases, it speeds up visibly compared to the chamber animation. The speed up seems to have also broken hit detection, which was a lot better before it. It's like the hit detection doesn't know that the animation has been significantly sped up and lags behind it. Haven't bothered playing English Bill ever since the speed up, while I absolutely love that weapon, simply because hitting overheads is too unreliable.

Yeah, pole overheads are wonky. I was fighting a War Spear user that released an overhead the same time I released a left swing, and visually my swing was clearly ahead of his, but his hit landed before mine.

It was almost better when polearms had crappy animations that at least were coupled to the hit detection.

[Senni__Ti]

Depends.

In some cases both were changed, most changes were specifically brf edits though. In most cases I kept the frame count exactly as it was (aside perhaps from the polearm overhead, I can't recall exactly.) I started by analyzing the animation, figuring out where the arm was at any given point in time, since the objective was to equalize swings/make them more intuitive to use. It's not something that you can do perfectly unless the weapon actually rotates around a center point and keeps its angle orientation, neither of these ever happen though. Anyway, after analyzing the animation I'd figure out what frames needed moved where so that the actual beefy part of the swing (where most of the motion takes place) would remain in tact, and unchanged. Most of the time this simply meant removing some of the earlier frames (ex, removing frame 3,5,7 as to keep the overall weapon path the same since warband blends between frames if it needs to) and adding frames near the end to keep the total frame count the same.

Ah found them, mistakenly assumed "anim_tydeus_nudges" were just nudges :p
Time to break things! 

[Tydeus]

Tydeus, I thought I had read you saying that polearm overhead was accidentally sped up too much?

I certainly did say that. The overhead and the right swing at very close range, are the cases "that I have... already detailed specifically in the past."

Here's an excerpt of the module_animations.py file:

Code: [Select]

ready_durn     = 0.35

blend_in_ready = arf_blend_in_6
blend_in_release = arf_blend_in_5

 ["ready_overswing_twohanded", acf_overswing, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_use_inertia|amf_keep|amf_client_owner_prediction,
    [ready_durn, "attacks_twohanded_overswing", 11, 26, blend_in_ready],
 ],
["release_overswing_twohanded", acf_overswing, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_play|amf_continue_to_next,
    [0.61, "attacks_twohanded_overswing", 26, 55, blend_in_release],
],

["ready_overswing_staff", acf_overswing, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_use_inertia|amf_keep|amf_client_owner_prediction,
    [ready_durn, "attacks_staff_uptodown", 9, 26, blend_in_ready],
 ],
 ["release_overswing_staff", acf_overswing, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_play|amf_continue_to_next,
    [0.6, "attacks_staff_uptodown_updated", 26, 61, blend_in_release], 

["ready_overswing_onehanded", acf_overswing|acf_enforce_rightside, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_use_inertia|amf_keep|amf_client_owner_prediction|amf_rider_rot_overswing,
    [ready_durn, "attacks_single_overswing", 5, 16, blend_in_ready],
 ],
 ["release_overswing_onehanded", acf_overswing|acf_enforce_rightside, amf_priority_attack|amf_use_weapon_speed|amf_play|amf_rider_rot_overswing|amf_continue_to_next,
    [0.6, "attacks_single_overswing", 16, 37, blend_in_release],
 ],

In both animations its on frame 42 where you would expect to start damaging your opponent (slightly earlier for polearms if they're being face hugged) but the total frame inclusion is different. This means the polearm progresses through the animation at a faster rate. If you calculate percentage-wise when frame #42 occurs, you have 45% through the anim for polearms and 55% for two-handed. That certainly seems like a large difference, and it is, but you should keep in mind that right/left swings when not at facehug range, are anywhere from 38%  (2h right swing) to 45%(polearm left swing) when calculated this way. Yes it's certainly faster, but...

The polearm overhead is certainly fast, but I'm not sure that it's in need of tweaking though. I don't see this jerkiness people talk about, instead I see lag, packet loss, height advantages and close proximity, all of which can cause poles to hit sooner.

It's not as though 2h doesn't have significant animation advantages itself. I doubt I need to bring up the effective length difference between thrusts, and certainly in light of the speed of other swings, assuming my analysis is correct, 45% on the pole overhead doesn't exactly seem OP. Instead, the same way the 2h thrust and 1h right swing has great reach, I see variety.

Haven't bothered playing English Bill ever since the speed up, while I absolutely love that weapon, simply because hitting overheads is too unreliable.

I've actually been using the Swiss a lot lately, and been doing extremely well with it on my 18/27 build. I'm able to use my s key + a/d to move away from people's swings to allow myself more time to get the overhead to land. Of course, this only ever works against feints/holds or those that don't turn into their swings enough. I miss a lot of overheads, sure, but I do the same with 1h and 2h likely because I play with 65-85 ping.

[Kafein]

We need more 20 ping balancers!

[AntiBlitz]

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


so goddamn fast, hits so hard, balanced, cheap, breaks shields, literally one of the finest polearms.  I cannot believe you can consider it balanced at all.  Everyone uses it, its like the new longsword of the polearms. 

97speed and 41c unloomed with shield breaking and balanced for 3 times less then the top tier poles.