cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Corsair831 on July 25, 2014, 08:36:05 pm

Title: Banner Balance
Post by: Corsair831 on July 25, 2014, 08:36:05 pm
it's only just come to my attention because of this whole byz/nords merger thing, that a lot of people don't like the banner balance.

please correct me if i'm wrong but it currently attributes a score to each player based on certain factors (which i don't know), like

PLAYER A
level 34 =120 points
kdr 1.3 = 100 points
player's total points =220

etc etc etc

and then balances players based on their score, until you get a

total team 1 points 30,000
total team 2 points 28,500 or something

if this is in fact the way it works (which i'm not actually sure it is), then surely the way to fix banner balance would be to add score for people on the same team sharing the same banner, e.g.

(click to show/hide)

that way you'd be accounting somewhat for the advantage a player gets from playing with the same banner as his mates.

oh, and also, perhaps it'd be a good idea to include a player's round win/loss ratio as well as their kdr into the equation, so

(click to show/hide)
just an idea ;)
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Lemon_ on July 25, 2014, 08:36:36 pm
tl;dr join krems or ban
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: //saxon on July 25, 2014, 09:10:52 pm
i don't have a problem with banner balance as much as i have with class balance, like one team having 80% of the ranged or infantry and so on, that is what needs fixing imo. anyone feel the same?
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Panos_ on July 25, 2014, 09:17:08 pm
You know  whats funny corsair?

When the banner balance was with, you and not against you, you never gave a fuck about it.

But now that your mates left you all alone in the cold world of c-rpg, you started caring about banner balance all of a sudden???


 :lol:


Get over it.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Andswaru on July 25, 2014, 09:24:03 pm
Sry Panos, hes with the evil force not struggling alone like you are. Nice Suggestion +1.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Panos_ on July 25, 2014, 09:28:03 pm
Sry Panos, hes with the evil force not struggling alone like you are. Nice Suggestion +1.

Nah, I`m not alone dude

I have tommy and poopy by myside  8-)
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Andswaru on July 25, 2014, 09:30:26 pm
Now all you need is a 4th and you can apply too join the musketeers.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: San on July 25, 2014, 09:45:47 pm
It seems to rank banners based on all of the players' values. High ranking banners seem to be valued with their rank value ^ 1.1. There's a lot of other stuff in there that I can't quantify from a first glance.

I think it should mostly balance by player. If there is banner balance, balance by player, but bring his banner with him. Then get the next most valued player and his banner teammates, etc. Just looking at what I said, it probably won't work as well as I'm thinking, haha. That being said, the algorithm that values a player isn't so great.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Leesin on July 25, 2014, 10:22:26 pm
i don't have a problem with banner balance as much as i have with class balance, like one team having 80% of the ranged or infantry and so on, that is what needs fixing imo. anyone feel the same?

Yeah, I couldn't give a shit about banner stacks, what pisses me off most and IMO can ruin an entire map is when one team gets 90%+ of the cavalry or archers, sometimes one team even has the majority of both, that can really fucking suck for the other team.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Corsair831 on July 26, 2014, 01:04:16 am
You know  whats funny corsair?

When the banner balance was with, you and not against you, you never gave a fuck about it.

But now that your mates left you all alone in the cold world of c-rpg, you started caring about banner balance all of a sudden???


 :lol:


Get over it.

aaactually panos, i'm in the clan with the huge bannerstack (vanguard), and i think the advantage we get from having ~~15 good players teamworking on teamspeak is a bit OP

would be nice if the banner balance took into account clan stacking and increased their "points per player" in the eyes of the banner balance system so that bannerstack had a bit less of an easy time rolling :P
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 26, 2014, 02:54:52 am
You know  whats funny corsair?

When the banner balance was with, you and not against you, you never gave a fuck about it.

But now that your mates left you all alone in the cold world of c-rpg, you started caring about banner balance all of a sudden???


 :lol:


Get over it.

So you dont mind us having ~15 of the best players on the server in the same team?
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: zottlmarsch on July 26, 2014, 03:13:33 am
tl;dr join krems or ban
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on July 26, 2014, 03:17:18 am
My feeling about banner balance is that although it can lead to "skill stacks", the bigger issues for team balance that it causes are coordinated loadout stacks/cohesion between players under the same banner.

Yeah, it's pretty bad if one team has a few more excellent 2h/pole/cavalry that fight individually than the other team.

It's a bit worse if they fight with a more team based strategy than the other team too.

...And then the team balance just becomes awful when that one team that may or may not have more good players coordinates loadouts according to the map, and also happens to work really well together.

Examples:
One team full of HA and/or heavy lancers on an open map (once the WPF bug is fixed anyway)
One team full of maulers + heavy plate in a confined map
One team full of xbows/archers + throwers with shieldbreaking weapons on a map that has rooftops/large staircases/long doorways with narrow entries.

I do find rounds more entertaining when it happens though (especially long maul plate stacks), and I can't really say that a team doesn't deserve wins if it can coordinate to that level, so at least there's that.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Lennu on July 26, 2014, 07:48:12 am

If a nord-byz-uber stack stomps EU1, I simply join Siege with a handful of my clanmates and roll a multi there, or I go and leech erm play on DTV, or I turn my PC off and do something else.


So you are forced to leave the server because of the clan stack on the other team :/


I think corsair's idea is nice. But maybe set the limit to 5 players, and start rolling the increased points from there. +10 when you have 6 players. +20 at 7 etc....

IMO this bannerstack only becomes a noticeable problem when the stack fills over ~35% of the whole team.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Corsair831 on July 26, 2014, 07:44:14 pm
My relatively small clan already has at least 5 players that are better than the average byz or nord guy ever could get.
 
I couln't care less about banner balance, as in my eyes it never really destroyed the fun of randomers/lone players/small clans, only people who are bad players/got dropped to often as childs are constantly complaining about banner balance.

If a nord-byz-uber stack stomps EU1, I simply join Siege with a handful of my clanmates and roll a multi there, or I go and leech erm play on DTV, or I turn my PC off and do something else.

'it's only game, why (everybody) has to be mad'  :mrgreen:

you dare challenge our e-penis?!

name your players bastard, i will fight them all irl (by which i obviously mean duel them on warband over LAN)
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: jtobiasm on July 26, 2014, 07:51:27 pm
My relatively small clan already has at least 5 players that are better than the average byz or nord guy ever could get.

That's what the clan league and the 5v5 tournament is for.
Prove it ;D
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Miwiw on July 26, 2014, 08:44:12 pm
"Good players are always on the bottom of a scoreboard because they don't like to show off and ruin anyone's fun."
- Edgar Allan Poe
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Thovex on July 26, 2014, 09:28:52 pm
"Good players are always on the bottom of a scoreboard because they don't like to show off and ruin anyone's fun."
- Edgar Allan Poe

We are often there when we join the server.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Miwiw on July 26, 2014, 10:01:29 pm
"Edgar Allan Poe is always right. And that's a rule."
- albert einstein
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Panos_ on July 26, 2014, 10:24:59 pm
A Greek always pays his debt

- Angela Merkel
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Macropus on July 26, 2014, 10:25:51 pm
"Edgar Allan Poe is always right. And that's a rule."
- albert einstein
More properly would be:
"Edgar Allan Poe is always right. And that's a physical law."

PS: or am I mistaken and Einstein wasn't a physician?
UPD: nevermind this post is a joke, I sure know what a physician is. It's the one who deals with psychos, right? 
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Miwiw on July 26, 2014, 11:10:10 pm
Macropus, I would have written "Albert Einstein", not "albert einstein" if I meant Albert Einstein though.


hint: forum changes certain "words"
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Corsair831 on July 26, 2014, 11:51:05 pm
More properly would be:
"Edgar Allan Poe is always right. And that's a physical law."

PS: or am I mistaken and Einstein wasn't a physician?
UPD: nevermind this post is a joke, I sure know what a physician is. It's the one who deals with psychos, right?

ohhh you fucking russians

im torn between thinking you're joking and not knowing what physician means, in which case i'd tell you that physician is just another word for doctor

or facepalming because you're managing to troll us all so hard :D
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 27, 2014, 01:36:07 am
My relatively small clan already has at least 5 players that are better than the average byz or nord guy ever could get.
 
I couln't care less about banner balance, as in my eyes it never really destroyed the fun of randomers/lone players/small clans, only people who are bad players/got dropped to often as childs are constantly complaining about banner balance.

If a nord-byz-uber stack stomps EU1, I simply join Siege with a handful of my clanmates and roll a multi there, or I go and leech erm play on DTV, or I turn my PC off and do something else.

'it's only game, why (everybody) has to be mad'  :mrgreen:

I wasnt making a e-peen post, theres no need to brag. And how is being forced to switch server a passable thing? You dont see any flaws in that needing to be fixed? And you say you are better than most of us, but you escape our wrath as soon as we build up an army?


I am fully for a more fair balance, either by making banners have less prio and switching over more stackers OR letting us stay on our team but making us have a harder time by switching over randomers so teams end up being maybe 20vs30. Teamplaying is awesome, but i have noticed it feeling very unfair when we win rounds so easily and i think the best solution would be to let us keep our stacks but having to fight harder for multi.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Chasey on July 27, 2014, 01:52:11 am
imo banner balance should be removed and class balance should be added. I realise that balancing on class is probably a lot more complicated, but if it just went off which class the person has the most wpf in, I think it could work.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Corsair831 on July 27, 2014, 02:04:21 am
imo banner balance should be removed and class balance should be added. I realise that balancing on class is probably a lot more complicated, but if it just went off which class the person has the most wpf in, I think it could work.

why not just combine the two? the whole thing works on attributing a score to players, so why not just attribute a higher score to a player the more of his banners are on his team, and the more of his class are on the team?

don't see any reason why this shouldn't work
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Royans on July 27, 2014, 02:05:50 am
Banner balance should stay, there's no point playing this game "alone" :[)
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Miwiw on July 27, 2014, 02:16:02 am
You should just avoid big clan merges like that. If you want to play together, why not just get into the same ts channel? Or joining the banner clan for one evening (like the Fallen/HRE sometimes did on EU2), but this seems over the top.. and the funny part, you're all now discussing about the banner balance. Is it bad or good, should it be changed or not?
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Corsair831 on July 27, 2014, 02:19:08 am
You should just avoid big clan merges like that. If you want to play together, why not just get into the same ts channel? Or joining the banner clan for one evening (like the Fallen/HRE sometimes did on EU2), but this seems over the top.. and the funny part, you're all now discussing about the banner balance. Is it bad or good, should it be changed or not?

we want to play together, but we feel guilty about steamrolling EU1 when we do have a huge banner stack

all we're suggesting is that the banner balance takes into account that there are so many of us, and puts a few more guys on the enemy team to make it fairer for everyone .. it's not nice being part of the group that everyone thinks is killing EU1 :(
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 27, 2014, 01:48:11 pm
I didn't say I am better than most of you. What I said is that the only drawback a small clan like Eques has is the number of players.
The only advantage of a clan like byzantium is the sheer number of it's players, nothing else.
Our average player is as good as your average player, our top players are as good as your top players, with the difference that we have more top/good players proportionately to the total size of the clan.
As english isn't my native language, I hope I did express it coherent now.
I didn't want to brag or anything  :wink:


Eques often joins and leaves a server as a group, which can result in making a round totally unbalanced when 5-8 players leave at once. But that's not our intention, it's just that we leave and join servers as a group usually when we are more than 5 people to play together. When we rolled a multi on Siege or on battle for a while and lose it, it often results in some people joining the other server, and the others follow then.
I don't think it's GTX'ing really, but you can call it whatever you like of course.

Still sounds like bragging, as it doesnt have anything with the topic to do. And if you actually think our clan only does well because of sheer numbers you are living in a cave  8-)
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Macropus on July 27, 2014, 03:20:09 pm
The only advantage of a clan like byzantium is the sheer number of it's players, nothing else.
Our average player is as good as your average player
What? Duel me for 1 million gold you fgget!

ohhh you fucking russians

im torn between thinking you're joking and not knowing what physician means, in which case i'd tell you that physician is just another word for doctor

or facepalming because you're managing to troll us all so hard :D
That was a joke.
But you'll never know for sure, right?  :)
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: BlindGuy on July 27, 2014, 04:37:33 pm
Nah, I`m not alone dude

I have tommy and poopy by myside  8-)

Well fuck you too :D
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: F i n on July 27, 2014, 05:58:50 pm
Just remove the Bannerbalance.

This is BS.

30 vs 30

Vanguard steamrolling them all with their TS / "Pro" tactics (aka. Rape) , winning the round with 2:24
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Rebelyell on July 27, 2014, 06:11:27 pm
Just remove the Bannerbalance.

This is BS.

30 vs 30

Vanguard steamrolling them all with their TS / "Pro" tactics (aka. Rape) , winning the round with 2:24
just ban them
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: karasu on July 27, 2014, 06:21:36 pm
Yeh, tired of being on Vanguard (or whatever their name) team, they keep losing rounds, and x1 isn't that fun.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: tizzango on July 27, 2014, 07:05:20 pm
I don't like how you claim your clan merge was "for inactivity lol", because that's bullshit considering you guys have 20 out of 35 players in one team- nevertheless, I appreciate that you may want to play with each other because you guys are close.

I was playing against you guys today, and I was enjoying the challenge but I did feel sorry for the guys who were there to grind/level up/whatever the hip-gamer-kids are saying these days, and have some 'fun'.

Just my two-cents, I really don't have much to say beyond that!
Good luck with the new clan!


P.S.

Realistically, at this stage of the game they are not going to implement a new balancing system.

1) It's summer and everyone is outside playing
2) chadz game/bonerlord/LiF around the corner.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Strudog on July 27, 2014, 09:03:47 pm
Like you said you cannot preach inactivity on the Byz side, but definitely on the Nord side, all i see at the moment is 90% Byz and 10% Nord.

Byz are probably the most active clan on Eu1, its summer of course activity goes down.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: karasu on July 27, 2014, 09:30:53 pm
And you're forgetting one crucial thing.

This actually made some of the inactive players come back for some fun time with this fresh "breath". On both sides. It was indeed a good thing for these 2 communities to become one. For cRPG too, even more players online.

Now, banner balance, that's another story. And the problem lies there (as always did and might will).
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Thovex on July 27, 2014, 09:32:23 pm
Also more people playing (like me) when I see 15 people on. Merges are usually a big activity booster atleast for a while.
When we did a reformation with Risen to Merciless we had 24/7 people online for 2 weeks and then it got way more quiet.
Idk why hate on banner balance because fighting with clanmates is 100x more fun than not, especially the good stuff is when 2 big stacks clash on one of the servers.

I don't know how to fix it but removing banner balance would ruin it quite a bit for clannies imo.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: tizzango on July 27, 2014, 10:25:42 pm
Merges are usually a big activity booster atleast for a while.
When we did a reformation with Risen to Merciless we had 24/7 people online for 2 weeks and then it got way more quiet.

This actually made some of the inactive players come back for some fun time with this fresh "breath". On both sides. It was indeed a good thing for these 2 communities to become one. For cRPG too, even more players online.

Ok yeah for sure, I agree it can help bring back disinterested old players. That doesn't necessarily mean the cRPG player base is expanding, at all.

As you've mentioned it brings veteran players online for 'at least a while'. Whilst over the course of these last few weeks, we have seen a rise in cRPG players- I doubt they would last in this community with the issues raised by Enver in his thread (will post link). Which is a shame.

Pertaining to banner balance and clan stacking. It does effect the new players as well, at least to me it would. I imagine as a new player it's very difficult to come to grasp with this game- a very steep learning curve. Now imagine trying to even CONTEND against the 'veteran players team' all stacked into one clan. As a new player, fresh out of download, your initial cognition isn't "oh ill join a clan and get better" it's;

 "This game looks fun, I'm excited to do all the things I've seen in the youtube videos/tutorials. Oh wait, no I cant because I need to be slaughtered continuously (levelling up) for 100 hours with a relatively low gain (x1), and additionally endure a server with racist and abusive remarks. Oh I can join a clan? Why would I want to join a clan i'm not even sure if I like this game? Oh wait yeah that's right, I can go play Native/another game."

And at least with FAIRLY EQUAL stacked teams on both sides (less of each clan), the 'steamroll' doesn't happen as often.

Now i'm not saying this is 100% true for all new players, because that would be a very silly thing for me to do. But I can at least speak for the players that aren't really interested in gaming, like myself, who aren't here to grind and win but just to have fun and want to pick up a game and play it- I guess I was lucky that I bumped into Ramses who taught me the ins and outs 30 seconds after I joined my first server, or else I wouldn't have been here!


I digress, sorry for going slightly off topic but hopefully you can understand my thinking with this.
(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 28, 2014, 02:59:01 am
We need other clans to counter stack us :c Merge mercs & eques & some other clan
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Angantyr on July 28, 2014, 03:38:15 am
Isn't Eques for Germans only (TS in German)?
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: korppis on July 28, 2014, 08:02:42 am
We need other clans to counter stack us :c Merge mercs & eques & some other clan

So keep merging untill there's only 2 huge stacks left?
I'd rather see big clans split. More smaller clans means more diversity on the field and different team combinations with this bannerbalance system.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Strudog on July 28, 2014, 09:10:06 am
We need other clans to counter stack us :c Merge mercs & eques & some other clan

Mercs have good enough activity to not warrant a merge, but when we do banner stack its once in a blue moon, which i guess is appropriate for the rest of the community.

Anyways the Vanguard banner stack is not as good as people make it out to be, numerous times i have been on and you guys having been loosing maps 4-0, but you have been winning some 4-0.

i do not mind banner stack, most of the time what it will do is put all the cav and archers in the opposite team which is more unbalanced than a banner stack.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: woody on July 28, 2014, 09:50:12 am
Problem is not just the perpetual losing of rounds its also running into gangs of experienced players time after time which is unrewarding. Totally agree if two big stacks on great but from what I've seen get two big stacks on most of the time one stack will go to another server ie to EU1 if on EU2 so they can win non stop. Personally I always enjoyed fighting against clanmates when on TS.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Herezy92 on July 28, 2014, 10:30:57 am
As a veteran, i take this merge as a good challenge. I like it.
Of course, i can understand the poor peasants, who clearly has no chances & just have to "enjoy"  being rape against the vanguard clan-stack.

But as it has been said, many of you are over-estimating the real power of clan stacking. (It's far from working all the time, really...)

We need other clans to counter stack us :c Merge mercs & eques & some other clan
No thank you. I have nothing against Eques, and i guess it's the same for them but :

You guys (Nords & Byz) merged because, as you said, you were often playing together (& not only on crpg) and you knew each-others.
So now, you want other clans to merge without any relations/reasons apart "countering your bannerstack" ?
I am sorry, but it seems to be a silly idea.  :?
Moreover, merging clans can potentially destroy the clan in question if it's not properly prepared.
Merging a clan is an option only if the 2 clans already have a relation & know each others quite well.

FrenchKiss

Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Admerius on July 28, 2014, 10:49:00 am
Risks with "overbalancing": Tweaking the banner stacks too much isn't a good idea, Imagine switching between x1 and x2, sometimes x3 and in some extreme cases: x4 or x5 due to lucky balance switches.

Banner stacks should be able to steamroll CONSISTENTLY.
As a frequent EU2 player it feels very rewarding when I manage to sneak by and defeat the banner stack almost singlehandedly(has happened about 2-3 times a year for the last two years)

With the current multi system I'm actually for the current banner stack system.

However... to address the issue with a suggestion:
Why not have banner balance disabled on fridays and saturdays?
or...
Tweak the multi gain vs. banner stacks
The idea being: Reward defeating bannerstacks more instead of nerfing bannerstacks.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 28, 2014, 01:25:54 pm
So keep merging untill there's only 2 huge stacks left?
I'd rather see big clans split. More smaller clans means more diversity on the field and different team combinations with this bannerbalance system.

It'll be like chinese server, i remember going there a while back and the server was filled with 3 massive clans and almost no non-clannies.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Corsair831 on July 28, 2014, 07:51:09 pm
It'll be like chinese server, i remember going there a while back and the server was filled with 3 massive clans and almost no non-clannies.

and weirdly, literally no samurai, which is both shocking and disappointing
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Molly on July 28, 2014, 08:06:18 pm
More clans = more themes = more diversity = more fun.

Merging clans = stupid.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: MURDERTRON on July 28, 2014, 08:17:02 pm
and weirdly, literally no samurai, which is both shocking and disappointing

Chinese hate the japs.  More Chinese were killed by Japanese than Jews killed by Germans in WW2.  However, the only thing Chinese hate more than the Japanese is complaining about the same old shit all the time.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Dexxtaa on July 29, 2014, 03:59:22 am
Look, guys. EU has drama threads too!

Fuck you Christo!! Your turn now !
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Breidr on July 29, 2014, 05:54:48 am
We've also had Squids stacking a lot of players lately on NA.  Makes the game fun, especially when you have to rely on winning multiple rounds because of the multi system.

Don't worry, soon there will only be one clan and we can turn our swords to plowshares.

#sarcasm
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: GOBBLINKINGREATLEADER on July 29, 2014, 06:28:30 am
Personally I like playing against a big strong banner of good players on the other team because it provides me a challenge. I get to try and target and destroy the players on that banner so that my team can win. I think banner balance is fine in NA.
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: bigsean on July 29, 2014, 05:55:23 pm
get rid of the dumb changing banners on the fly thing thru an alt in that clan or w/e
Title: Re: Banner Balance
Post by: Huscarlton_Banks on July 30, 2014, 01:14:55 am
I thoroughly enjoy playing with/against the squids (or any banner stack) since it's more interesting than having small series of (1-3)v(1-3) fights all over the map. though a minor complaint I have is that I can't get valour with them on my team when they actually work together.