cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Templar_Steevee on April 25, 2014, 09:42:44 am
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All I want to say is:
Nomad and tatar bow are too accurate, ranged shouldn't have a pin-point accuracy.
Even modern sniper rifles have some deviations in "where i aim-where i hit", so why archers in c-rpg should have that? X-bows already have capped accuracy (asaik) and IMO it should be done same to those two bows i mentioned (i were using all bows amd onl whith those 2 i had pin-point accuracy)
Rest of bows are fine IMO (for ppl who don't know i have 198 WPF in archery) pin-point accuracy is only for nomad and tatar bows.
I also wouldn't mind if accuracy for all bows will be lowered a tiny bit, but devs probably won't do anything with that.
This is not a rage topic, i would like to see at least a shadow of realism while using bows by removing problem i mentioned.
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IMO they should lower accuracy and raise damage on all bows..
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Rising dmg is no needed. Have you ever been on strat siege or battle against drz?
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I would prefer ranged where accurate as that encourages rewarding player skill. BUT if we have accurate ranged the actual ranged mechanics need a lot more depth. The projectiles should be slower so that you need to lead a target more, or account for projectile dip more. The weapon should not be steady in the hand like you're firing from a fixed turret. The shallow nature of the shooting mechanics kind of preclude rewarding player skill with really accurate shots imo.
Its a shame because RNG is not really fun for anyone, but its necessary based on how the current ranged mechanics work.
Not saying ranged isn't accurate now, but it shouldn't be until there is more depth in the way that you shoot
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IMO highest missile speed should be one that Rus bow have, it's strongest compound bow in game.
I like missile speed that long bow have atm.
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I'm glad, very glad you are talking about that problem Steevee. Get a +3 nomad and a heavy armor, enjoy le pin point accuracy with huge missile speed, and the fact you can actually spam archers/crossbowmen or even stun people with 6 PD (damage bonus). Really a fucking plague. The accuracy should be capped like on crossbows.
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i had to make topik like this one, because 2h heroes can make only rage topics about our OP class ;D
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This is not a rage topic, i would like to see at least a shadow of realism while using bows by removing problem i mentioned.
Would also be nice if there was a small, random round/map based wind factor... so that for long shots one would have to take it into account. Shouldn't be impossible to place a small wind direction arrow on the corner next to nudge thingie? :)
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Would also be nice if there was a small, random round/map based wind factor... so that for long shots one would have to take it into account. Shouldn't be impossible to place a small wind direction arrow on the corner next to nudge thingie? :)
Impossible to do in cRPG I believe, sadly. The warband engine never is probably not able to create new parameters in a simple way, don't know if Sebastian, the guy doing BoE (battle of Europe) managed to do it. But wind in cRPG would be a real change for archery.
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Love the archer who want some challenge
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Making melee hits randomly miss would not increase the depth or skill of melee. Same thing with ranged. Maybe it would be more challenging..but is that the type of challenge you want in a game like this? Without depth in the first place what can you do though
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Archer QQing about archery, now I've seen it all. Mod truly dead.
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Making melee hits randomly miss would not increase the depth or skill of melee. Same thing with ranged. Maybe it would be more challenging..but is that the type of challenge you want in a game like this? Without depth in the first place what can you do though
Yes because the current mechanics encourage unrealistic style of gameplay for all ranged (not only archers). Going for headshots shouldn't be worth it as it seems arcadish. Imo the headshot bonus damage should be nerfed in all classes, especially ranged. "No one likes to get onehit".
I respect people that consistently hit the head with bows, but the same people can do it with a rusbow and longbow as well. Those seem to be fine and I have no idea how to use those. Currently Tatar and Nomad are total noobproof semiautomatic sniper-rifles that anyone can use and even Horn bow is way too accurate and gives decent damage as well. Last time I played a pure archer, I had the option to choose between a long bow (11k) or a nomad bow (1.3k) and I did better with the latter. It's because I suck at manual aiming and Nomad doesn't require any skill whatsoever.
Encouraging people to use the higher tier - more skill based - ranged weapons would prolly help to alleviate the huge problem we've had on EU1 again in the last few days where melee just quits because of the unimaginable ranged spam.
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If you want to nerf archery, then lower missile speed or lower damage, but leave the accuracy as it is.
It is just annoying how everyone wants archery to be a gambling. Archers with wide cross-hairs can try to be as good as they want, if they perform well, it involves luck, not just skill. Pin-point accuracy or nearly pin-point accuracy is the only way for me to play archery, no matter how weak my bow is.
Also, less accuracy = more teamhits.
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Archers should have a pin-point accuracy only if they have :
- fully invested in archery
- accurate bows in hand
And I think the actual game is just that: you have no 100% accuracy if you have high PD, low-average WPF or a strong and innacurate bow.
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missile speeds of those bows are insanely good. just lower them and they will be okay
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Archers should have a pin-point accuracy only if they have :
- fully invested in archery
- accurate bows in hand
And I think the actual game is just that: you have no 100% accuracy if you have high PD, low-average WPF or a strong and innacurate bow.
My build is 18/27 and I am using Tatar and Nomad Bow. Compared to mainstream highlevel archer builds:
- 18/24 like Blackbow and Polla: I sacrifice Ironflesh and Powerstrike for additional accuracy.
- 27/21 like Spoony and some Quincies: I sacrifice PD for additional accuracy and Athletics.
- 21/24 like some fellow Nord archers: I sacrifice PD for additional accuracy.
My crosshair is pin-point accurate for Tatar and Nomad Bow and rather wide for all the other bows. So only the two weakest bows give me perfect aim. I don't see how this needs to be nerfed. I need 2-4 headshots on average to kill people, and yeah, due to my build and my weapons, I am actually able to land these headshots in a row. But believe me, this is still harder than hitting someone with a high STR build the lethal 2-4 times in the body.
Just why do you want to disallow a playstyle which is harder to perform than the easy modes?
I can imagine some archers are pissed because of the agi archers with their fast and accurate bows. But these builds are designed to hunt other archers. It's like a no-shield-onehander crying about a horse archer or heavy cav hunting him. It is a natural counter, and you are supposed to rage about that. Deal with it.
Less agi archers with good aim = more archers designed to counter infantry, i.e. high-damage builds (kudos, the full STR archer is back to cRPG)
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The real choice the game has to make in terms of balance is:
1. High damage less accuracy, great for shooting down chokepoints, ladders and mobs of enemies, but unreliable for sniping and shooting into melee.
2. Snipe and fire like a laser, but deal bad damage and suffer the wrath of every period nerf the community asks for. If archers want the good accuracy they cannot complain abaout bad damage, because that's how it's balancing the good aim.
Green = Yes
Red = No
Don't worry HESKEY, I am not complaining about the bad damage. I am just saying that bad damage AND bad accuracy is a bit over the top. The accuracy is good atm, but the opening post is about reducing it. Which is kinda interesting, because Steeve doesn't even use Nomad and Tatar Bow himself. He is one of the archers who are being countered with them, and ofc he dislikes that.
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Don't nerf accuracy, nerf missile speed. 46 and 48 missile speed are absolutely retarded values that turns archery into a point and click adventure, whoever implemented that should feel bad. Missile speed is the variable that introduces skill into archery. Your ability to properly lead for distance and your ability to predict movement. It also puts some skill into avoiding archery, as properly dodging might actually result in missed shots. 42+ missile speed throws all of that out of the window. Lowering accuracy just adds more randomness, affecting the bad and good archers alike, lowering missile speed will seperate the wheat from the chaff.
Also, make holding an arrow for long reduce its damage and accuracy more. The 3 second holds some people do is just bullshit.
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My crosshair is pin-point accurate for Tatar and Nomad Bow and rather wide for all the other bows.
If thats not an exxageration its true that there should be some tweaks so that there is a more progressive "bows compass" which would result in :
- weak but accurate
- less weak but less accurate
- average damage/accuracy
- less strong but less innaccurate
- strong and innacurate
I have a 15/24 HA build and its extremely accurate even on horse (thanks to 4 HA skill), but I never tried anything else than nomad bow. If I use another bow that has -1/-2 accuracy or more, my aim will be THAT wider?
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I have a 15/24 HA build and its extremely accurate even on horse (thanks to 4 HA skill), but I never tried anything else than nomad bow. If I use another bow that has -1/-2 accuracy or more, my aim will be THAT wider?
The 4 HA skill actually gives you a 40 point reduction in wpf. If you think your accuracy is high, you should try it with a dedicated archer build, who have like 40 wpf more than you :)
15/24 HA comparison with 184 wpf, 0-4 HA points: http://oi60.tinypic.com/wrhq4x.jpg (http://oi60.tinypic.com/wrhq4x.jpg)
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I have a 15/24 HA build and its extremely accurate even on horse (thanks to 4 HA skill), but I never tried anything else than nomad bow. If I use another bow that has -1/-2 accuracy or more, my aim will be THAT wider?
The issue is that not just the accuracy count determines the output accuracy, but also the damage stat on your bow. That's why Tatar is less accurate than Nomad even though their accuracy is the same: It deals 1 cut more and thus, more wpf is needed to reach the good accuracy. Other bows either have significantly more damage and consequently a lower output accuracy, or a lower accuracy stat and this results in a lower output accuracy. Or it's both, and than the aim is crap compared to Nomad Bow and Tatar Bow.
The 1 damage point difference between Nomad Bow and Tatar Bow is about 1 WM more in archery if you want to reach pin-point accuracy.
EDIT: Fixed typo, and I am off for a while. See you later
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Don't nerf accuracy, nerf missile speed. 46 and 48 missile speed are absolutely retarded values that turns archery into a point and click adventure, whoever implemented that should feel bad. Missile speed is the variable that introduces skill into archery. Your ability to properly lead for distance and your ability to predict movement. It also puts some skill into avoiding archery, as properly dodging might actually result in missed shots. 42+ missile speed throws all of that out of the window. Lowering accuracy just adds more randomness, affecting the bad and good archers alike, lowering missile speed will seperate the wheat from the chaff.
QFT
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Love the archer who want some challenge
He just complaining that low level archers got a chance to headshot him.
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... because Steeve doesn't even use Nomad and Tatar Bow himself. He is one of the archers who are being countered with them, and ofc he dislikes that.
I'm using those bows all the time in strat battles.
For me it's just hillarious that I'm able to shoot and kill guys that are so far that they are hiding behind red dot (ofc i aim higher)
I also learned to shoot against archers using those bows, they are not a big problem.
I'm also supporting idea with lowering missile speed on low tier bows. It's sad that even short bow have higher missile speed than long and rus bow...
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As teeth said, if anything, missile speed is the issue at hand, not accuracy.
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Beware how missile speed is handled, it was messed with before in the past and it sucked, then the issues that come up are just dismissed as whining. Tough I have not much experience with sucky bows, if that's what's being addressed, giving people time to dodge twice cannot be a good idea. Also remember that ping plays a greater part into such time reliant mechanics, we don't need more ghost arrows.
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As teeth said, if anything, missile speed is the issue at hand, not accuracy.
#1 dev
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All bows other than the Longbow now use heirloom points as ammunition.
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I wonder if admins and the like can see who voted on what.
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I personally think it's the missile speed that is the biggest issue tbh.
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I personally think it's the missile speed that is the biggest issue tbh.
On what bows?
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On what bows?
Nomad is the most problematic IMO, the highest missile speed combined with the fastest rate of fire and being able to keep the crosshair so tiny for a long time makes it pretty lame, it's a headshot machine and pretty much fucks every other archer that is using a heavier bow.
It should have some advantages but missile speed is not one of them, IMO it near on raped the Horn Bows usefulness as the only advantage Horn Bow has is 3 more damage, which isn't much when you consider that it's easier to hit people with arrows fired from a Nomad Bow and you can fire them noticeably quicker, meaning you are more likely to score headshots and even with less damage you will probably end up doing more damage over a period of 10 seconds.
I think overall missile speed changes was a pretty shitty balancing idea, also even though this doesn't really have much to do with a computer game, but it also bugs me because it makes absolutely no sense where physics are concerned :lol:. The bigger the bow, the harder and slower it should be to draw, but it should also fire arrows the furthest and fastest with the most damage.
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Tartar and Nomad may seem very accurate to you, most likely because of AGI archers with a lot of proficiency. Please don't lower accuracy of all bows, as it would be devastating to STR archers like mine. Hirlok may come out of being a hermit and start stabbing people with arrows instead of shooting them too probably :P
Nomad and tatar bow are too accurate, ranged shouldn't have a pin-point accuracy.
Rest of bows are fine IMO (for ppl who don't know i have 198 WPF in archery) pin-point accuracy is only for nomad and tatar bows.
I also wouldn't mind if accuracy for all bows will be lowered a tiny bit, but devs probably won't do anything with that.
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I use a longbow almost exclusively and haven't had much of a problem. There was a time when bigger bows shot really slow and the smaller ones really fast, but I don't feel that anymore.
I agree on the accuracy thing because of realism, and because no one should ever have sniper accuracy combined with the other advantages smaller bows offer.
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I agree on missile speed. I doubt that arrows ever flew that fast in medieval times.
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Tough I have not much experience with sucky bows, if that's what's being addressed, giving people time to dodge twice cannot be a good idea.
Right now there is no time to dodge at all. From a standstill, your character can travel no more than a negligible distance between the moment an arrow is released and the moment it lands.
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Right now there is no time to dodge at all. From a standstill, your character can travel no more than a negligible distance between the moment an arrow is released and the moment it lands.
From what bows? People manage to dode mine all the time. Maybe what you're experience is people releasing arrows purposely to your sides so when you dodge they land on you?
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From what bows? People manage to dode mine all the time. Maybe what you're experience is people releasing arrows purposely to your sides so when you dodge they land on you?
I don't think you understand what I said. I was talking about the time window that start when the arrow is released. In other words, what happens directly after the archer loses control over the trajectory of the arrow. This time window is incredibly short and dodging in that interval is basically impossible. What you are calling "dodging" here seems to be the act of moving in unpredictable patterns to confuse the archer as to where he should aim to hit you. People do this before the arrow is released. That isn't dodging. My point is that right now, if the archer aims correctly the target will be hit, every single time. Granted, aiming correctly in that situation takes some skill depending on how far and how fast the target is. However, it's still trivial compared to what it should be, due to the absurd missile speeds.
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A deer jumps when he hears the string release of a bow...pretty fast raction time..better than what a human is gonna do...and all that happens is arrow hits a little higher than aimed...deer only has time to lower body in the jumping motion...arrow travlimg 150-200 fps(over 300fps for modern bows withsshort arrows). If an arrow is on target and you are in range it would take a exception human with reaction time to dodge it after released
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A deer jumps when he hears the string release of a bow...pretty fast raction time..better than what a human is gonna do...and all that happens is arrow hits a little higher than aimed...deer only has time to lower body in the jumping motion...arrow travlimg 150-200 fps. If an arrow is on target and you are in range it would take a exception human with reaction time to dodge it after released
Do kangaroos next!
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Never eaten roo before...like chicken?
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Do kangaroos next!
I approve of this message.
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fine:
A kangaroo jumps when he hears the string release of a bow...pretty fast raction time..better than what a human is gonna do...and all that happens is arrow hits a little higher than aimed...kangaroo only has time to lower body in the jumping motion...arrow travlimg 150-200 fps(over 300fps for modern bows withsshort arrows). If an arrow is on target and you are in range it would take a exception human with reaction time to dodge it after released
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I don't think you understand what I said. I was talking about the time window that start when the arrow is released. In other words, what happens directly after the archer loses control over the trajectory of the arrow. This time window is incredibly short and dodging in that interval is basically impossible. What you are calling "dodging" here seems to be the act of moving in unpredictable patterns to confuse the archer as to where he should aim to hit you. People do this before the arrow is released. That isn't dodging. My point is that right now, if the archer aims correctly the target will be hit, every single time. Granted, aiming correctly in that situation takes some skill depending on how far and how fast the target is. However, it's still trivial compared to what it should be, due to the absurd missile speeds.
I really don't see a problem in it.
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problem with missile speed is only on nomad and tatar bow, let's say that rest is ok.
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problem with missile speed is only on nomad and tatar bow, let's say that rest is ok.
Agreed.
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I honestly dont mind missile speed, i dont have much trouble dodging arrows with 0 athletics, so if the rest of you can't you're probably playing it wrong with your superior builds and skill. It comes down to awareness.
1. Watch the archer, not the arrow, dont expect to see the arrow coming and still have time to dodge.
2. Abuse the hell out of 'view outfit' and 'zoom' keys, constantly look in every vantage point, if you see any sudden movement or hear anything you dodge to the side or suddenly/unexpectedly stop moving.
3. Don't run in zigzags all the time, good archers will headshot you cos it's a predicatble pattern. Run as if you havent seen them, predict their shot and only dodge at that moment. Archers get frustrated easy and give up shooting guys who do this cos they want easy kills.
I'd rather see other stats tweaked than missile speed since they're so easy to dodge anyway, my issue is with the accuracy (kinda makes it easier to dodge though cos they're guaranteed to hit where they aim). I'd rather have a psychological battle with an archer and dodge them than face an archer who could shoot unpredicably, but i think a small random element would improve gameplay nontheless.
That's what everybody does, but that's not dodging. As I've explained, that's merely trying to make the archer aim where you won't be instead of reacting based on where the archer aims. As archer it's very easy to maintain your draw for a little while longer which renders that kind of effort completely useless.
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let archery class alone, just let it be. its ok now
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i'm of the opinion that every infantry bar pikemen should be forced to carry a shield, none of this tincan 2h spamming stuff
buff archery
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That's what everybody does, but that's not dodging. As I've explained, that's merely trying to make the archer aim where you won't be instead of reacting based on where the archer aims. As archer it's very easy to maintain your draw for a little while longer which renders that kind of effort completely useless.
It's not very easy to maintain a draw and keep accuracy unless you have high WPF, I hate hearing these random claims from non archers. You have to guess where the arrow goes because c-rpg players are able to move in very weird, unrealistic ways. Someone wearing full plate should not be able to outrun an archer and turn and bend in an instant. But they can, and that won't change.
If archery is intented to be more of a volley system then take away those quick jerky movements.
if the archer aims correctly the target will be hit, every single time. Granted, aiming correctly in that situation takes some skill depending on how far and how fast the target is. However, it's still trivial compared to what it should be, due to the absurd missile speeds.
That is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. "if the archer has perfect aim he can hit his target everytime". First that's based off the best players, low consistent ping, at their very best. Balance should not be based on that. Nomad and tatar are quick and fast because they are weak, you will laughably pincushion any plate wearers, even with headshots sometimes. Sure you can hit them easier, but what does it matter if your damage is often laughable or glances?
With the weaker bows you need a high PD to do any sort of damage to heavy armor players, and each point of PD decreases effective WPF. So does heavier armor. More WPF here takes away from the melee portion we are allowed. Add arrow weight slowing archers way down and you have a very gimped melee side. Archers need to be able to fire into crowds and not hit teammates, if we leave it to 1vs1 we will lose because our melee just can't compare.
So now you have this weak (in both melee/range), slow moving archer who relies on being able to hit his targets better with those bows. Time to take that away too?
The only problem I see is Nomad + HA. An HA with full unloomed using a nomad can easily pick off players with a nice speed bonus, and very fast draw, and they aren't affected by the arrow weight as much so they can take 2 stacks and just plink away. When most use the Yumi it's okay, but unloomed nomad is ridiculous for HA.
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it's funny, that you call those bows weak. If you want to kill just take bodkin arrows and you will be able to kill everyone in very short time.
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With twice as many arrows.
I suppose that's what the extra slot is for.
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you can always take 3 quivers with you. I quiver of MW bodkins is 20 arrows.
I'm normally using 2 quivers and it's more than enought. If you want to kill with less amount of hits just take stronger bow, it's simple.