cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Prpavi on February 17, 2014, 07:21:03 pm

Title: Xbows next...?
Post by: Prpavi on February 17, 2014, 07:21:03 pm
Oki now that you have "balanced" bows what are your plans for xbows, really curious.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: the real god emperor on February 17, 2014, 07:26:25 pm
Make xbows melee weapons!
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Latvian on February 17, 2014, 07:28:10 pm
make melee weapons xbows!
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Boerenlater on February 17, 2014, 07:32:17 pm
weapon makes xbows melee!
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Miwiw on February 17, 2014, 07:32:51 pm
Replace xbows with bows?  :lol:
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Jack1 on February 17, 2014, 07:33:49 pm
Make xbow men's hands into pickles.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: _GTX_ on February 17, 2014, 07:43:01 pm
Oki now that you have "balanced" bows what are your plans for xbows, really curious.

''Get a shield and stop QQ''.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Rebelyell on February 17, 2014, 07:51:49 pm
''Get a shield and stop QQ''.

adapt!
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 07:59:56 pm
Well since they listened to me about my suggestion to "remove" ranged stagger (they didn't completely remove stun though, seems like stagger is completely gone), maybe they'll listen to me about xbow changes.

The only change needed for xbows is for them to have a governing skill (everything else in the game does, shield skill, riding, power throw, power draw, power strike), crossbows should have a governing skill too. 

Only problem with this, is they should really give people with crossbow WPF a free respec, but they have been very reluctant to do that in the past.  The time to make this change was before they let everyone have a free respec.

That being said, it wouldn't be the first time they screwed people over with requirements on items and didn't give a free respec (look at you RIDING REQUIREMENT OF COURSER GOING FROM 4 TO 6...which was a good change, but fucked over quite a few people). 

/that riding change didn't hurt me really since I was still retiring my main char at the time when I got to 31.  My bro quit the game for a few months however because he was on a "final build" with 4 riding, champion courser and didn't have spare points for 2 more riding skill.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: karasu on February 17, 2014, 08:22:00 pm
Dual wield.  :twisted:
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Grumbs on February 17, 2014, 08:49:49 pm
Increase their weight and make it so you can't drop it  :twisted: . That would make it so you have a permanent mallus in melee combat so there is some downside to taking the xbow

The main problem is that they are too good in too many areas. Good melee, good ranged, good armour, low reqs etc
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Kamirane on February 17, 2014, 09:05:42 pm
Give Crossbows requirement of skills(PD/PT/now PC?) like all other kinds of ranged.

Nerf Itembalancers! Buff Community!
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Prpavi on February 17, 2014, 09:12:01 pm
obv nothing, just as I tought
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Rhaelys on February 17, 2014, 10:37:27 pm
Well since they listened to me about my suggestion to "remove" ranged stagger (they didn't completely remove stun though, seems like stagger is completely gone), maybe they'll listen to me about xbow changes.

The only change needed for xbows is for them to have a governing skill (everything else in the game does, shield skill, riding, power throw, power draw, power strike), crossbows should have a governing skill too. 

Only problem with this, is they should really give people with crossbow WPF a free respec, but they have been very reluctant to do that in the past.  The time to make this change was before they let everyone have a free respec.

That being said, it wouldn't be the first time they screwed people over with requirements on items and didn't give a free respec (look at you RIDING REQUIREMENT OF COURSER GOING FROM 4 TO 6...which was a good change, but fucked over quite a few people). 

/that riding change didn't hurt me really since I was still retiring my main char at the time when I got to 31.  My bro quit the game for a few months however because he was on a "final build" with 4 riding, champion courser and didn't have spare points for 2 more riding skill.

People can still use crossbows with 1 WPF, so adding a governing skill for crossbows would actually make the entire playstyle unavailable (unless a crossbow was made that didn't require the crossbow skill). Thus it is difficult to determine who does and doesn't use crossbows based solely on crossbow WPF. A respec would probably have to be issued for everyone, as it was for the WPF change. The difference from the courser example you gave is that 4 riding horses were still available, so with a simple change of horse your bro could continue to ride around.

If a crossbow skill is implemented, I would like to see accuracy values lowered drastically for all crossbows and have the crossbow skill drastically increase accuracy values. Thus, a peasant or random swordsman who is strong enough to pull back a crossbow string and fire the crossbow can still fire it, but he or she would be fairly inaccurate without investment of skill points.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 10:48:45 pm
People can still use crossbows with 1 WPF, so adding a governing skill for crossbows would actually make the entire playstyle unavailable (unless a crossbow was made that didn't require the crossbow skill). Thus it is difficult to determine who does and doesn't use crossbows based solely on crossbow WPF. A respec would probably have to be issued for everyone, as it was for the WPF change. The difference from the courser example you gave is that 4 riding horses were still available, so with a simple change of horse your bro could continue to ride around.

If a crossbow skill is implemented, I would like to see accuracy values lowered drastically for all crossbows and have the crossbow skill drastically increase accuracy values. Thus, a peasant who is strong enough to pull back a crossbow string and fire the crossbow can still fire it, but he or she would be fairly inaccurate with it.

I agree there with both points, it is somewhat different (riding a rouncey is not even close to a courser, but I see your point).  I think that they would need another free respec if this did this, and I doubt they want to do that enough to add a governing skill.

Also agree with 2nd point about drastically lowering accuracy values, and make the governing skill increase accuracy (alternatively, they could just have requirements on the items like bows, and leave the accuracy of WPF as it is, but the skill will lower active WPF values).
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: San on February 17, 2014, 11:37:45 pm
The first trial is to get balancers to agree with each other on some solution. Ideologically, xbows should be usable by anyone, yet achieve concrete differences when specializing. Because of that, I don't believe that having a governing skill conflicts with the above as long as it doesn't have anything to do with weapon requirements.

There are quite a few technical limitations that I am aware of. It'd be far easier to use an existing skill rather than create a new one. We also need to agree that the governing skill makes sense or whether or not it's even worth the effort to implement over the status quo. I personally believe that the skill should affect DPS without crippling the weapon too much. That's why reload speed makes sense to me.

I think it makes sense to increase strength reqs, but I don't think it would greatly help balance-wise. And of course, respecs since many aspects are influenced.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Grumbs on February 17, 2014, 11:43:44 pm
I think there are some oldguard people who have a say in the balance of xbows that holds the game back

They should be easily used by anyone? This is an area that is brought up often but really has its routes in realism rather than in gameplay imo. I still don't know why everyone should be able to use a xbow besides realism. Realism which is thrown out the window when it comes to most other areas of the game

Going from what San suggests, I'd probably just use Power Draw to determine the level of xbow you can use, and nerf all the stats unless you have that skill. I think they should be heavy and unusable with a shield, plus you shouldn't be able to have as much armour while remaining accurate, so they cooincide with the negative elements archers have

The main areas to fix are the lack of skill point sink and the ability to have the best of both worlds - good melee and good ranged
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 17, 2014, 11:50:29 pm
I hardly ever agree with Grumbs, but I do with him here. 

The "useable by anyone" argument seems ridiculous to me.  It's a realism argument, in a game that is far from realistic.  Don't make me pull up the argument we're having about cavalry and how unrealistic it is in another thread (the horses, and how they interact with environment/people/weapons).

It doesn't make sense to me that they do not require the use of a governing skill.  Even melee has power strike (which increases the weapons damage...it's arguably the only other "skill" besides shield/power draw/power throw/riding that doesn't have a hard requirement for the use of it's items).  However...having "Crossbowery" skill (that I made up) at 1 should be as effective when using a crossbow, as swinging a melee weapon with 1 power strike. 

Otherwise it means that crossbows will be overpowered when compared to other builds, since they do not have to invest skill points into the usage of the crossbows.  This is beyond common sense, we're treading water into "a 4 year old dolphin can understand this" territory.  I don't see what the counter-argument is. 
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: protox2k on February 17, 2014, 11:51:44 pm
Oki now that you have "balanced" bows what are your plans for xbows, really curious.

Xbows are 2nd on the priority list to me me. Why haven't throwing lances been looked at yet? The repair is almost 1/3 the repair of an arb and you can spam throw 3 (64p) and use your remaining one as a weapon faster then a Quarter staff and stronger because of pierce
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Rhaelys on February 17, 2014, 11:54:09 pm
No one is arguing that crossbows shouldn't have a governing skill.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Inglorious on February 18, 2014, 12:08:56 am
Make armor a contributing factor to a weapon that has a trigger? Lol what's the armor going to do, make you turn 180 degrees when you squeeze your index finger?

If you want some point sink other than WPF, while keeping them usable by everyone, make PD effect reload speed. Make the 0 PD crossbow users have an extra 7-9 seconds tacked on. The higher you go into PD the more time you get taken off. If it was -1.2 seconds per PD point from a flat 17 second reload, an arbalest user with 5 PD ( base str requirement to use arb and 5PD) would still have 11 second reload time. That's 3-4 extra seconds for someone who is technically "proficient" in a weapon. Now the dedicated crossbowmen could sink in another 3 PD to achieve 8PD and have a slightly faster arbalest reload than we have now, at the cost of having to choose a balance btw either being a faster crossbowmen or better hybrid.

I might not have laid out all the possible crossbow tree options, but I used the arbalest because its definitely the plated giant killer.

Also huesby's Crossbowery (lol) can be used in place of PD. what a skill name haha.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Rumblood on February 18, 2014, 12:52:42 am
It needs to be accuracy more than it needs to be reload speed, but both is good.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: San on February 18, 2014, 01:59:40 am
Hey hey grumbs, I didn't use the word easily :D
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Torost on February 18, 2014, 02:09:40 am
Crossbows can not be balanced in any meaningfull way.

the internal balance between ranged weapons is so skewed already that almost all attempts to "balance" crossbows will cause tremendous amounts of QQ and butthurt.

My suggestion is to remove them completly, give 100% refund in loompoint and gold. And respecs.

Alternativly remove all but the arbalest and steel bolts. Effectivly converting all kinds of crossbows and bolts to arbalest and steel bolts.

You can use the arbalest its current state as low as level 9.. meaning peasant can use it.
it will not be popular as a "sidearm"
no more hx, (still possible, but you have to dismount to reload)
still able to make gold, but not a leecherfavorite.
Less ranged spam.
Still keeps it somewhat realistic as a heavy hitter, low skill weapon.

Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Smoothrich on February 18, 2014, 02:19:33 am
Can WPF effects on crossbows be changed by balancers?

I think lowering the stats like speed, accuracy, etc by a ton at default values but making them scale better at high WPF would be a great way to balance xbows.

Make them still usable but way shittier for infantry builds (but still useful for killstealing from castle walls in Strat) and pretty much the same for dedicated builds. Possibly make ~100 WPF less effective than it is now for xbows so they require a similar WPF investment as archers, to gimp infantry hybrids a bit more.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: korppis on February 18, 2014, 07:37:17 am
How about something like this?

Without having any points in governing skill, one could have max something like 80 points in xbow wpf. Not to mention the reload speed would be slow.

For each point in that skill, it would allow you to assign 20 points more in wpf and slightly speed up the reloading.

Also maybe make the hold start affecting accuracy at some point (same as with bows). Such as, 10 sec with heavy xbows + few secs with each point in the skill. Light crossbows might not need that.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Corwin on February 18, 2014, 09:03:59 am
No one sane will take them anymore, anyway. You can't top the scoreboard relaying only on crossbow, they take forever to reload, if you manage to hit anyone in medium armor that just pisses them off, and there is no way you can reload before you get engaged in melee. Best case scenario, you get to fire three bolts with an arbalest per round. And sure as hell, you will not one shot anyone, unless you hit headshot, they are naked or already badly injured. And that's it.

Just try to count the number of dedicated crossbows on servers, and you will understand just how nerfed this weapon already is.

And if people are STILL not happy, just delete crossbows from the game.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: korppis on February 18, 2014, 09:41:09 am
No one sane will take them anymore, anyway. You can't top the scoreboard relaying only on crossbow, they take forever to reload, if you manage to hit anyone in medium armor that just pisses them off, and there is no way you can reload before you get engaged in melee. Best case scenario, you get to fire three bolts with an arbalest per round. And sure as hell, you will not one shot anyone, unless you hit headshot, they are naked or already badly injured. And that's it.

Just try to count the number of dedicated crossbows on servers, and you will understand just how nerfed this weapon already is.

And if people are STILL not happy, just delete crossbows from the game.

What do you consider medium armor? I have 51 body armor and few points IF, and I get one shot by mw arbalest all the time, no matter where it hits.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Corwin on February 18, 2014, 09:58:17 am
I find that very strange, because I played last gen with MW Arbalest and MW steel bolts, and in most of the cases I couldn't one-shot even archers.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Molly on February 18, 2014, 11:42:21 am
I find that very strange, because I played last gen with MW Arbalest and MW steel bolts, and in most of the cases I couldn't one-shot even archers.
...cuz useless. :wink:
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Prpavi on February 18, 2014, 12:48:04 pm
No one sane will take them anymore, anyway. You can't top the scoreboard relaying only on crossbow, they take forever to reload, if you manage to hit anyone in medium armor that just pisses them off, and there is no way you can reload before you get engaged in melee. Best case scenario, you get to fire three bolts with an arbalest per round. And sure as hell, you will not one shot anyone, unless you hit headshot, they are naked or already badly injured. And that's it.

Just try to count the number of dedicated crossbows on servers, and you will understand just how nerfed this weapon already is.

And if people are STILL not happy, just delete crossbows from the game.


yes you have no idea what you're talking about but I forgive you this time.

Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: karasu on February 18, 2014, 01:24:11 pm
The problem is not crossbows, but arbalests. Loomed ones with loomed ammo.

With an arbalest, every shot I make either 1 hits ( not so common these days ), or simply leaves that player in such low HP that anything else will kill him in the next seconds. Then if I simply aim at those already wounded by even the slightest bump, they die. From mid round to end, almost every single shot is a kill shot.

If I use the heavy crossbow, everything changes.

As long as Arbalest is the most damaging, faster, most accurate, with best projectile speed, other 2-slot crossbows existence is but a joke. A cross-bower doesn't give a flying damn about reload speed, you'll be hiding in cover most of the time anyway.

But this will never change due to some individuals in the dev team that enjoy licking arbalest juicy penises and praise the arbalest god in their lunch hours.  :oops:

So bring at least the STR req change, so I can get the hell out of this broken class and back to melee.


xoxo <3
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Prpavi on February 18, 2014, 02:29:08 pm
and by melee you mean archer?  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Phew on February 18, 2014, 03:12:59 pm
Just in the last couple patches we've seen:

1. Bolts no longer penetrate even most peasant shields (shield armor values were mostly raised to be >20).

2. Bolts lost the "extra penetration" tag, doing severely less damage to armored targets (I took an arbalest shot to the chest at pointe blank range for like 30 damage last night, 62 armor)

3. Ranged stagger was nerfed somehow (I don't really understand the details)

Those are some pretty hefty nerfs to crossbows, let's take some time to evaluate the changes before we continue the endless cries of "nerf xbow". After all, if ranged disappears entirely, be prepared for the waves of OP agility polearmers (if you think arbalests hurt, what do you think of a +3 Awlpike to the head with 8+ athletics of speed bonus behind it?).
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Gurnisson on February 18, 2014, 03:25:06 pm
What do you consider medium armor? I have 51 body armor and few points IF, and I get one shot by mw arbalest all the time, no matter where it hits.

Health is more important than armour against arbalest. However, even with a 18/21 build with no IF I'd survive most arbalest bolts that hit me, even if it lobbed off most of my HP. They do a shit-ton of damage, so I'd rather hide until they shoot at someone else, and then engage the arbalester, as their reload speed is low enough to reach them from quite far before they get another shot off.

(click to show/hide)

I find it the other way around. Arbalest is not worth the extra reload speed for me, even though it's better at very long range because of the missile speed. From my experience with both these crossbows, they seem to mostly use 2 shots on targets, with the occasional one-hit by arbalest and 3-shot by heavy xbow. They're both one-shots on headshots except for the Butans of this mod, and that just makes the heavy xbow better for me. It's very strong at body-shots, one-shot headshots, much faster to reload than arbalest, great accuracy, good missile speed. I just feel it's the best choice compared to arbalest and crossbow which loses out in speed and range (also damage) respectively.

Then again, I always loved aiming for headshots, so I prefer ranged weapons I use to have enough missile speed to make headshots rather easy at long range, while still having the reload speed to not get pushed to easily by infantry and also having the possibility to take down high-priority targets rather quickly at the start of the round.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Torost on February 18, 2014, 05:11:50 pm
wanting to top the scoreboard... feeling cheated of kill because arbalest only takes 90% of hp... hiding so crossbower can shoot an ally instead.

The battle is a team effort, those things should not be your main focus, it is very counterproductive.

The main problems with crossbows have been laid out so many times.

They make for a duller game, as the dominant strategy is to hide and shoot for as long as possible.
Accuracy is very high, missile speed is high, dmg is high (compared to all other ranged).
The only drawback is the reload, and that is not a big problem ,since you just hide and reload. Even animation will hide you.
Crossbows are cheap, as in you make plenty of gold playing as crossbower.
Together with steel bolts, the bonus from looming is far beyond other ranged.

And since crossbowers really do not have any armor resctrictions, and sacrefice no points they are as viable melee as dedicated infantry.

Why balancers have you made of all ranged crossbows the clearly better choice?

Crossbows were troublesome back then aswell, everyone hated them because of their effectivness.
And they pretty much worked like in crpg, reloadspeed maybe abit lower :D

The role of crossbows in crpg should be IMO to take out or soften high value targets (high lvl tincans,cav and other ranged)
Targets that are hard to kill because of armor,speed or skill.

If crpg was played seriously, all players would be crossbowinfantry.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Rico on February 18, 2014, 05:28:20 pm
If you think a crossbow nerf is necessary, feel free to play around with reload speed, projectile speed and damage, or implement that governing skill thingy.

Just do not touch accuracy, or hitting the enemy will be based on luck rather than skill, which will make me cry...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Macbeth3 on February 18, 2014, 05:53:24 pm
What some of you seem to forget is, that since Xbow does not have a skill governed like PD (wich gives 14% extra damage per point, for up to +4 above the bow requirement), that eventually, archers do more damage in the end anyway.

at 6 pd with a Longbow and bodkins, an archer does 65P damage. Archers then ofcourse can fire roughly 3 or more arrows before an arbalest has shot and been reloaded, I see no reason why we should change xbows in any way.

Now concidering this info, what do you prefer? 3x 65p (mw Longbow + Bodkins) or 1x 100p(mw arba + mw sb).

It's true, that the arba will do more damage versus an archer with 6 PD and longbow. But the archer has WAY more mobility and can shoot way faster.
Ontop of that there's quite a few archers that go up to 7, 8 or even up to 10pd.  Concidering 8 pd with Bodkins, they'd do 75p damage total. (Remember these damage values are BEFORE armor)

If the Xbow user misses his shot, he's fucked and has to STAND STILL to reload (most likely in cover). But then again, cover can be used by ANY class.


TL:DR
- Archers Have rate of fire and mobility while still beeing able to shoot slightly weaker then a Heavy Xbow.
- Xbows have pure raw power but lack speed and mobility, and without cover you're a sitting duck.

I like how they are different. If people would need to invest into skillpoints for Xbow, then I see no reason why people would go Xbow over archer.




Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: San on February 18, 2014, 07:26:33 pm
Can't compare raw damages that way. That single xbow shot could very well deal many times more damage as far as final damage is concerned. Xbow also has indefinite holding and slightly better mobility. I wouldn't say xbow would be inferior than archery even with a governing skill.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: BlindGuy on February 18, 2014, 07:37:15 pm
Lets not forget:

Sure you can have nice raw dmg with 10 PD and a longbow+bodkins: you have 30 str and maybe... 15 agility MAX?
normal-ish bowman, 18/18, 18/21...

vs crossbowman: 12 or 15 STR (arbalest) and close to 30 agility.

who REALLY has the mobility??
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on February 18, 2014, 07:46:22 pm
Macbeth (*meow*) the problem is that without a governing skill, there's no skill point investment needed for crossbows, which makes them a stronger "hybrid" class than they otherwise would be.  They are "too strong" in melee compared to archer/melee hybrids, throwing/melee hybrids, or cavalry/infantry hybrids. 

See Rhaelys...some people are saying there's no need for a governing skill. 

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Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Phew on February 18, 2014, 07:50:35 pm
I still think most of the xbow whining is coming from 2h/pole heroes that run around with 2 free slots then complain when they get shot. With only 1-2 point investment in shield skill, you can get a round shield that will stop 2-4 bolts, or make bolts that hit the shield on your back do practically no damage (shield armor+your armor+10=shield on back armor against projectiles).

The armor increase for the lower-tier shields was a serious buff for protection against ranged, yet it seems like no one really takes advantage of it.

Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Kafein on February 18, 2014, 07:59:12 pm
I still think most of the xbow whining is coming from 2h/pole heroes that run around with 2 free slots then complain when they get shot. With only 1-2 point investment in shield skill, you can get a round shield that will stop 2-4 bolts, or make bolts that hit the shield on your back do practically no damage (shield armor+your armor+10=shield on back armor against projectiles).

The armor increase for the lower-tier shields was a serious buff for protection against ranged, yet it seems like no one really takes advantage of it.

No one really takes advantage of it because there's really no advantage to be taken. A shield is a cumbersome, debilitating, flimsy and unreliable defense mechanism against ranged. It's the best ranged defense though bar not needing to go in the open at all, but melee is not compatible with that at all.

Is this sorry defense worth all the problems it brings? No, really not.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Phew on February 18, 2014, 08:07:35 pm
No one really takes advantage of it because there's really no advantage to be taken. A shield is a cumbersome, debilitating, flimsy and unreliable defense mechanism against ranged. It's the best ranged defense though bar not needing to go in the open at all, but melee is not compatible with that at all.

Is this sorry defense worth all the problems it brings? No, really not.

A +3 Nordic Shield has 263 HP, 21 Armor, and weighs only 3.5kg, i.e. the same as heavy boots. And almost everyone wears boots, despite the fact that people get hit in the legs less often than they get hit by ranged overall.

Equip shield when approaching ranged, put it on your back when engaged in melee. This approach will probably reduce your overall damage taken by range by at least 75% (considering that the mere presence of your shield makes you a less desirable target, combined with active/passive blocks and shield on back mitigation). How is that not worth 1-2 skill points and 3ish kg?
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Rhaelys on February 18, 2014, 09:08:16 pm
Macbeth (*meow*) the problem is that without a governing skill, there's no skill point investment needed for crossbows, which makes them a stronger "hybrid" class than they otherwise would be.  They are "too strong" in melee compared to archer/melee hybrids, throwing/melee hybrids, or cavalry/infantry hybrids. 

See Rhaelys...some people are saying there's no need for a governing skill. 

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Nobody was saying that when I made that post.

Anyway I'm lobbying for a governing skill change because that necessitates a free respec for everyone.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Smoothrich on February 18, 2014, 11:18:22 pm
I still think most of the xbow whining is coming from 2h/pole heroes that run around with 2 free slots then complain when they get shot.

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Nothing like good ol non-biased balance talk from our competitive tier players
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Phew on February 18, 2014, 11:25:43 pm
Nothing like good ol non-biased balance talk from our competitive tier players

I have like 50 xbow wpf, and only use the thing during my first life on siege defense on certain maps, to shoot down ladders etc. It's a waste of weight and reload time under any other circumstance. And I know I don't bother shooting at anyone with a shield.

We don't even play on the same servers, so I don't know why you feel like you can make assumptions about my playstyle based on my avatar.

I spend A LOT more time being shot at by xbows than shooting mine, which is why I feel qualified to support the use of shields as both a deterrent and a defense against crossbows. Used on my left arm or on my back, I'd say the shield mitigates xbows as a threat most of the time, unless I'm being stupid. And I use a heater, which isn't exactly ideal for catching projectiles.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Smoothrich on February 18, 2014, 11:31:21 pm
I have like 50 xbow wpf, and only use the thing during my first life on siege defense on certain maps, to shoot down ladders etc. It's a waste of weight and reload time under any other circumstance. And I know I don't bother shooting at anyone with a shield.

We don't even play on the same servers, so I don't know why you feel like you can make assumptions about my playstyle based on my avatar.

I spend A LOT more time being shot at by xbows than shooting mine, which is why I feel qualified to support the use of shields as both a deterrent and a defense against crossbows. Used on my left arm or on my back, I'd say the shield mitigates xbows as a threat most of the time, unless I'm being stupid. And I use a heater, which isn't exactly ideal for catching projectiles.

i dont need to make an assumption to know that you're a shit player who posts way too much on balance issues while having wrong opinions on literally every topic you post in. basically the NA kafein
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Phew on February 18, 2014, 11:56:44 pm
basically the NA kafein

Aren't you lance cav with a shield? If so, when you're mounted you get about a 5x bigger forcefield than I do on foot, so if you are still being hit by bolts, then you don't have much room to call me out on my lack of skill.

I assume your issues lie with bolts killing your horse? Any xbow nerf would be a huge boon for cavalry such as yourself. Looks like we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black re: "good ol (sic) non-biased balance talk"
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Haze_The_Hobo on February 19, 2014, 12:40:44 am
Xbows suck on point basis atm..
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Moncho on February 19, 2014, 12:46:08 am
...
inb4 people complaining about the get a shield lol argument.

3.5 weight can also be taken from heavy-medium armours at a cost of 4-6 body and foot armour (saracen mail shirt vs banded armour, banded vs gotland), oh what a huge loss that cannot be in any possible way compensated, because obviously those 4-6 extra armour points are going to be more useful than a shield that prevents a projectile from hitting, duh. But yet again, some people seem to prefer madly moving their mouse around and using animations to modify their position.
Of course while your shield is up you will be slower, but afaik having them either on your hand or your back slows you the equivalent of those kg being elsewhere. And you do not need to keep it up all the time.
But hey, QQing on the forums gives results, so why on earth would anyone fucking adapt?
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Kafein on February 19, 2014, 01:02:09 am
inb4 people complaining about the get a shield lol argument.

3.5 weight can also be taken from heavy-medium armours at a cost of 4-6 body and foot armour (saracen mail shirt vs banded armour, banded vs gotland), oh what a huge loss that cannot be in any possible way compensated, because obviously those 4-6 extra armour points are going to be more useful than a shield that prevents a projectile from hitting, duh. But yet again, some people seem to prefer madly moving their mouse around and using animations to modify their position.
Of course while your shield is up you will be slower, but afaik having them either on your hand or your back slows you the equivalent of those kg being elsewhere. And you do not need to keep it up all the time.
But hey, QQing on the forums gives results, so why on earth would anyone fucking adapt?

Reality check : no, a shield on your back doesn't slow you down like heavier armor. The malus is actually huge. I bet you can even tell yourself if you try it.

Also given the utility of his posts I contemplated adding Smoothrich to my ignore list for a long time, and it is now done. Be proud to be comparable to oreshy. I'd advise others to do the same, a forum is meant for communication with people that are not insane, usually. Smoothrich's noise isn't exactly helping with that.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: San on February 19, 2014, 01:09:27 am
Can lead a horse to water...

Shields are as accessible as ever for any melee class. I think xbows would be fine without a skill, but it does fundamentally makes sense for it to have one.

Shield is better than the joke that is IF IMO. There is also a base reduction since the shield skill tweak, which helps 1-3 skill shields. There's also the option to drop the shield at any point.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Pentecost on February 19, 2014, 01:53:06 am
Crossbows have a lot of issues, but the biggest problem they have is their internal balance.

The attempt to discourage everyone from being 2h/Crossbow just resulted in many of the people who had those types of builds becoming 1h/Arbalest instead. Not much of an improvement for anyone on the receiving end of things. It doesn't help matters that there is little reason to bring anything other than an Arbalest or Heavy Crossbow right now if you are a crossbowman, and I hope the balancers plan on addressing this in the future. If all crossbows other than the Hunting Crossbow are going to remain 2 slot, then there should at least be real tradeoffs involved in deciding which one to use; I personally would recommend reviewing the scaling on their strength requirements or reload speeds.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Moncho on February 19, 2014, 02:05:29 am
Reality check : no, a shield on your back doesn't slow you down like heavier armor. The malus is actually huge. I bet you can even tell yourself if you try it.

Also given the utility of his posts I contemplated adding Smoothrich to my ignore list for a long time, and it is now done. Be proud to be comparable to oreshy. I'd advise others to do the same, a forum is meant for communication with people that are not insane, usually. Smoothrich's noise isn't exactly helping with that.
Reality check: A second shield on your back is devastating, but just one is not. And WaltF4 carried out some testing that can be seen here:
My testing (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,3278.0.html) suggests that the engine uses a single, total weight for the running speed calculations. This weight includes all items your character has on them: worn, sheathed, or unsheathed. Holding a weapon further reduces running speed based on the weapon length and weight. Holding a shield does not change running speed relative to wearing that shield, unless your character is holding one shield while wearing another shield; in which case, there is an enormous reduction in running speed.

Only armor weight appears to matter for attack speeds. Holding a shield does not change the time taken to complete an attack. However, the delay between blocking an attack and beginning your own attack may be different if you block with a weapon compared to a shield. I would assume that the difference depends on the weights and speeds of both the attacking and blocking weapons and the shield.
Holding a single shield was found to increase run time by the same amount as adding the weight of the shield as armor or carried weight. However, holding one shield while wearing another on your back was found increased the run time as if the character was carrying significantly more weight then they actual were. For example, the run time for a 27 agility and 9 athletics character carrying 15 weight of items including one held shield and one worn shield was equal to that of the same character carrying 60 weight of items.
I know how much a shield weighs you down, I have only ever played 1 gen where I did not use a shield in one form of another. Whether 2h/pole or even ranged, I almost always had a shield (heavy round or knightly heater, which weigh considerably more than a 2-3 shield skill one) for moving around, and it is definitely not that bad. I find the difference quite minor, but hey, maybe you have a better perception. A pike for example slows you down far more than a shield (weapon length).
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Kafein on February 19, 2014, 02:34:12 pm
Reality check: A second shield on your back is devastating, but just one is not. And WaltF4 carried out some testing that can be seen here:I know how much a shield weighs you down, I have only ever played 1 gen where I did not use a shield in one form of another. Whether 2h/pole or even ranged, I almost always had a shield (heavy round or knightly heater, which weigh considerably more than a 2-3 shield skill one) for moving around, and it is definitely not that bad. I find the difference quite minor, but hey, maybe you have a better perception. A pike for example slows you down far more than a shield (weapon length).

I know about those tests, and they are quite old aren't they? Maybe we should ask cmp.

In any case, a shield is only really useful when you block with it, especially low level shields that won't do much as passive armor.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Moncho on February 19, 2014, 02:48:27 pm
If you want, we can go on EU3 one with a shield and one with an armour weight difference being that of the shield and test it, but my internet is shit this week so I cannot do it at this time. And afaik the running mechanics have not changed other than for the length of weapons held.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Grumbs on February 19, 2014, 03:46:36 pm
I think people would feel a lot better about xbows with some of the "cheesiness" removed.

Holding a shot forever with no downside
Running and gunning at short/medium range
Fast projectiles with hardly any dip / small amount of target leading
They can be used with low xbow proficiency and have no other skill sink
Having a shield makes it so you can last a long time in melee even with minimal melee skills
Dropping the xbow before a melee fight completely removes the negative element of the added weight
Armour does not impact a xbows stats anywhere near enough.
High damage with minimal player input/from safety
Instant turning without losing accuracy
0/1 slot weapons are very good even without a shield

The mix of crappy fps game mechanics and good melee ability/low skill sink should be fixed
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Prpavi on February 19, 2014, 04:00:35 pm
to me holding shots and turning while reloading even moving in the later stage of the reload combined with high athletics and good kiting ability makes this class really broken for me. This is the main reason I support adding a skill to sink skill points in or upping the requirement to 18 just to disable 15/24 builds being so efficient.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Macbeth3 on February 20, 2014, 02:42:48 am
to me holding shots and turning while reloading even moving in the later stage of the reload combined with high athletics and good kiting ability makes this class really broken for me. This is the main reason I support adding a skill to sink skill points in or upping the requirement to 18 just to disable 15/24 builds being so efficient.

Only wanted to talk about the "turning while reloading" thing.
if that would be removed, it woudn't matter because you can just hold down the tilde-key to look around :D

I would even be fine to making arbalest having more then 15 strenght requirement.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Corwin on February 20, 2014, 09:11:33 am
Well, you are using Heavy Crossbow, why shouldn't you be fine with it?
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: AntiBlitz on February 20, 2014, 03:03:21 pm
*remove "view outfit" key(yes fuck that thing, eyes everywhere, as if every player is a fucking jedi)

*stationary reloading on drawing the string, twisting in circles checking there backs not only looks silly, but defeats cavalry, as they tend to be the most aware while most vulnerable.

*armor limitation, only so much armor before you cant bend over to reload, according to warband, all players are like gumby(how the fuck do you touch your toes with plated armor on, i can barely touch my toes with body armor and a gun belt on, and thats fabric!)

*make the accuracy absolute shit while walking around, and then when they stop, it takes a few seconds longer for them to align the aim again, no more peeping and shooting or clearing buildings like a swat team with shotguns, this will also make xbowmen expose themselves.  Far too long has the xbowmen been completely safe at all times unless peeping to fire his weapon for 1 second only to hide again, all a while the poor archer must stand there like a fool.
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Macbeth3 on February 20, 2014, 04:37:33 pm
Well, you are using Heavy Crossbow, why shouldn't you be fine with it?

18/18 build xD
Sometimes 15/21 but mostly 18/18 :3

So even if strenght requirement would be changed, I would still be able to use arba :D
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Sniger on February 21, 2014, 08:10:22 pm
delete, remove, burn, destroy.

rock paper scissor xbow
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Andswaru on February 28, 2014, 09:00:07 pm
bump for free respec!
Title: Re: Xbows next...?
Post by: Kamirane on March 01, 2014, 03:54:39 am
bump for free respec!

would prefer free loom  :lol: