Xbows next...?

[San]

The first trial is to get balancers to agree with each other on some solution. Ideologically, xbows should be usable by anyone, yet achieve concrete differences when specializing. Because of that, I don't believe that having a governing skill conflicts with the above as long as it doesn't have anything to do with weapon requirements.

There are quite a few technical limitations that I am aware of. It'd be far easier to use an existing skill rather than create a new one. We also need to agree that the governing skill makes sense or whether or not it's even worth the effort to implement over the status quo. I personally believe that the skill should affect DPS without crippling the weapon too much. That's why reload speed makes sense to me.

I think it makes sense to increase strength reqs, but I don't think it would greatly help balance-wise. And of course, respecs since many aspects are influenced.

[Grumbs]

I think there are some oldguard people who have a say in the balance of xbows that holds the game back

They should be easily used by anyone? This is an area that is brought up often but really has its routes in realism rather than in gameplay imo. I still don't know why everyone should be able to use a xbow besides realism. Realism which is thrown out the window when it comes to most other areas of the game

Going from what San suggests, I'd probably just use Power Draw to determine the level of xbow you can use, and nerf all the stats unless you have that skill. I think they should be heavy and unusable with a shield, plus you shouldn't be able to have as much armour while remaining accurate, so they cooincide with the negative elements archers have

The main areas to fix are the lack of skill point sink and the ability to have the best of both worlds - good melee and good ranged

[CrazyCracka420]

I hardly ever agree with Grumbs, but I do with him here. 

The "useable by anyone" argument seems ridiculous to me.  It's a realism argument, in a game that is far from realistic.  Don't make me pull up the argument we're having about cavalry and how unrealistic it is in another thread (the horses, and how they interact with environment/people/weapons).

It doesn't make sense to me that they do not require the use of a governing skill.  Even melee has power strike (which increases the weapons damage...it's arguably the only other "skill" besides shield/power draw/power throw/riding that doesn't have a hard requirement for the use of it's items).  However...having "Crossbowery" skill (that I made up) at 1 should be as effective when using a crossbow, as swinging a melee weapon with 1 power strike. 

Otherwise it means that crossbows will be overpowered when compared to other builds, since they do not have to invest skill points into the usage of the crossbows.  This is beyond common sense, we're treading water into "a 4 year old dolphin can understand this" territory.  I don't see what the counter-argument is. 

[protox2k]

Oki now that you have "balanced" bows what are your plans for xbows, really curious.

Xbows are 2nd on the priority list to me me. Why haven't throwing lances been looked at yet? The repair is almost 1/3 the repair of an arb and you can spam throw 3 (64p) and use your remaining one as a weapon faster then a Quarter staff and stronger because of pierce

[Rhaelys]

No one is arguing that crossbows shouldn't have a governing skill.

[Inglorious]

Make armor a contributing factor to a weapon that has a trigger? Lol what's the armor going to do, make you turn 180 degrees when you squeeze your index finger?

If you want some point sink other than WPF, while keeping them usable by everyone, make PD effect reload speed. Make the 0 PD crossbow users have an extra 7-9 seconds tacked on. The higher you go into PD the more time you get taken off. If it was -1.2 seconds per PD point from a flat 17 second reload, an arbalest user with 5 PD ( base str requirement to use arb and 5PD) would still have 11 second reload time. That's 3-4 extra seconds for someone who is technically "proficient" in a weapon. Now the dedicated crossbowmen could sink in another 3 PD to achieve 8PD and have a slightly faster arbalest reload than we have now, at the cost of having to choose a balance btw either being a faster crossbowmen or better hybrid.

I might not have laid out all the possible crossbow tree options, but I used the arbalest because its definitely the plated giant killer.

Also huesby's Crossbowery (lol) can be used in place of PD. what a skill name haha.

[Rumblood]

It needs to be accuracy more than it needs to be reload speed, but both is good.

[San]

Hey hey grumbs, I didn't use the word easily

[Torost]

Crossbows can not be balanced in any meaningfull way.

the internal balance between ranged weapons is so skewed already that almost all attempts to "balance" crossbows will cause tremendous amounts of QQ and butthurt.

My suggestion is to remove them completly, give 100% refund in loompoint and gold. And respecs.

Alternativly remove all but the arbalest and steel bolts. Effectivly converting all kinds of crossbows and bolts to arbalest and steel bolts.

You can use the arbalest its current state as low as level 9.. meaning peasant can use it.
it will not be popular as a "sidearm"
no more hx, (still possible, but you have to dismount to reload)
still able to make gold, but not a leecherfavorite.
Less ranged spam.
Still keeps it somewhat realistic as a heavy hitter, low skill weapon.

[Smoothrich]

Can WPF effects on crossbows be changed by balancers?

I think lowering the stats like speed, accuracy, etc by a ton at default values but making them scale better at high WPF would be a great way to balance xbows.

Make them still usable but way shittier for infantry builds (but still useful for killstealing from castle walls in Strat) and pretty much the same for dedicated builds. Possibly make ~100 WPF less effective than it is now for xbows so they require a similar WPF investment as archers, to gimp infantry hybrids a bit more.

[korppis]

How about something like this?

Without having any points in governing skill, one could have max something like 80 points in xbow wpf. Not to mention the reload speed would be slow.

For each point in that skill, it would allow you to assign 20 points more in wpf and slightly speed up the reloading.

Also maybe make the hold start affecting accuracy at some point (same as with bows). Such as, 10 sec with heavy xbows + few secs with each point in the skill. Light crossbows might not need that.

[Corwin]

No one sane will take them anymore, anyway. You can't top the scoreboard relaying only on crossbow, they take forever to reload, if you manage to hit anyone in medium armor that just pisses them off, and there is no way you can reload before you get engaged in melee. Best case scenario, you get to fire three bolts with an arbalest per round. And sure as hell, you will not one shot anyone, unless you hit headshot, they are naked or already badly injured. And that's it.

Just try to count the number of dedicated crossbows on servers, and you will understand just how nerfed this weapon already is.

And if people are STILL not happy, just delete crossbows from the game.

[korppis]

No one sane will take them anymore, anyway. You can't top the scoreboard relaying only on crossbow, they take forever to reload, if you manage to hit anyone in medium armor that just pisses them off, and there is no way you can reload before you get engaged in melee. Best case scenario, you get to fire three bolts with an arbalest per round. And sure as hell, you will not one shot anyone, unless you hit headshot, they are naked or already badly injured. And that's it.

Just try to count the number of dedicated crossbows on servers, and you will understand just how nerfed this weapon already is.

And if people are STILL not happy, just delete crossbows from the game.

What do you consider medium armor? I have 51 body armor and few points IF, and I get one shot by mw arbalest all the time, no matter where it hits.

[Corwin]

I find that very strange, because I played last gen with MW Arbalest and MW steel bolts, and in most of the cases I couldn't one-shot even archers.

[Molly]

I find that very strange, because I played last gen with MW Arbalest and MW steel bolts, and in most of the cases I couldn't one-shot even archers.

...cuz useless.