cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Topic started by: Panos_ on February 08, 2014, 09:33:22 pm

Title: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Panos_ on February 08, 2014, 09:33:22 pm
I think it makes more sense than the current RANDOM knockdown chance, you hit someone on the feet with a blut weapon, then he gets knocked down!

Discuss.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: 722_ on February 08, 2014, 09:38:51 pm
cant be any worse than how knockdown works now, +1
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: musketer on February 08, 2014, 09:42:58 pm
If someone hits you with this in your head
(click to show/hide)
...and if you still walking normally, then, congratulations, you are a Terminator.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Panos_ on February 08, 2014, 09:45:09 pm
If someone hits you with this in your head
(click to show/hide)
...and if you still walking normally, then, congratulations, you are a Terminator.

a good helmet, can easily reduce the pain that the hammer would inflict, while on the other hand, even a weak hit on your legs is capable of making you lose your balance
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: XyNox on February 08, 2014, 10:43:18 pm
(click to show/hide)

lol, when I was bored at work today I read customer ratings about exactly that hammer, Fiskars 4kg. Got a lot of 5/5 because of this rubber thing below the head which reportedly helps a lot when swings slip or are performed inaccurately.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Dooz on February 08, 2014, 11:24:58 pm
seems like an irrational response to being upset by having been knocked down a bunch
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: BlueKnight on February 08, 2014, 11:31:45 pm
I think it makes more sense than the current RANDOM knockdown chance, you hit someone on the feet with a blut weapon, then he gets knocked down!

Discuss.

Half of the players already do the ground-facing while fighting so I don't think encouraging this even more would be a good move.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Kafein on February 08, 2014, 11:50:55 pm
Panos I don't think you want people to be able to systematically knock you down.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Panos_ on February 09, 2014, 12:41:51 am
seems like an irrational response to being upset by having been knocked down a bunch

no, not really, I know how to roll properly, but it seemed more "natural" to get knocked down that way.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Daunt_Flockula on February 09, 2014, 12:59:42 am
It sounded like a good idea when I first read your suggestion Panos. But these two are quite strong arguments to be honest.

Half of the players already do the ground-facing while fighting so I don't think encouraging this even more would be a good move.

Panos I don't think you want people to be able to systematically knock you down.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Dooz on February 09, 2014, 02:28:36 am
no, not really, I know how to roll properly, but it seemed more "natural" to get knocked down that way.

maybe it is "natural", but it's not natural. you try getting hit over the head, shoulders, body, anywhere but the legs with a blunt weighted object without falling over then revisit this idea.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: San on February 09, 2014, 02:41:32 am
Definitely sounds like a good idea. We've been talking about knockdown modifiers for increased/decreased chances to certain parts of the body as well as a revised base knock down formula. Want it so that precise, strong hits in the correct areas are rewarded while preventing knockdown from random glances/weak hits.

This and making roll less finicky would make knockdown more interesting.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Dooz on February 09, 2014, 02:59:11 am
unless by "certain parts of the body" you mean "certain parts of the legs", that doesn't have much to do with the op, which from what i gather is calling for a removal of knockdown chance from anything but leg shots. but if you do mean different parts of the body having their own chances of knockdown, that sounds great.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Jarlek on February 09, 2014, 02:59:44 am
Increase max chance of knockdown on legs, decrease on body, remain same on head.

Personally I would also add held attack to matter the most for knockdownchance. Even more than weight, raw damage and end damage. Especially end damage.

Another thing is having "knockdown ability" in it's own weapon stat instead of having it based on weight and raw damage.

About weak hits vs strong hits:
While having the high damaging hits have a higher knockdown % makes sense, isn't that bad in a gameplay perspective? If I hit someone once for half their health, that's already pretty nice to me. Hitting someone once for 10% of their health on the other hand, getting that "free" (aka, free on EU2 cause no roll, not free on EU1 cause you can roll away) hit is more a bonus for choosing a low damage weapon. Ofc weapon speed might make up for it, but meh. This is why I want knockdown to have it's own "stat". Same when I get knockdowned myself. More annoying when it's a high damage weapon because it kills me before I can get up. I'm saying this as a guy who loves the mallet.

Also make roll less retarded. Especially the part where you have to find out if the server even allows you to roll (looking at you EU2).
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: San on February 09, 2014, 03:01:45 am
unless by "certain parts of the body" you mean "certain parts of the legs", that doesn't have much to do with the op, which from what i gather is calling for a removal of knockdown chance from anything but leg shots. but if you do mean different parts of the body having their own chances of knockdown, that sounds great.

Yeah, it's this. I was thinking it was on the right track, not exactly what the OP says, sorry if I confused anyone. There are many different hit locations that have a numerical value, that's why I wasn't too specific since I didn't remember them all, but generally the head and leg area for increased and a few other areas for decreased.

@Jarlek

The current maximum damage you need to do maximize knockdown is 20-40 raw. 40 raw can be reached with 2-3PS with a mid-damage blunt weapon. Just going to increase it to normal damage ranges, not really making it so only strength builds can ever get knockdown. At this point, we can't do much other than fix the formula since this is a WSE thing and only 1 person able to change all that.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Dooz on February 09, 2014, 03:09:13 am
my heart forgives you but my body says no
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Panos_ on February 09, 2014, 10:26:47 am
unless by "certain parts of the body" you mean "certain parts of the legs", that doesn't have much to do with the op, which from what i gather is calling for a removal of knockdown chance from anything but leg shots. but if you do mean different parts of the body having their own chances of knockdown, that sounds great.


Yeah, my idea was to totally remove knockdown from torso/head hits, and allow it only when you get hit on the legs, BUT with a combination of what San and Jarlek wrote, I think knockdown will be better, but mostly it won`t be random.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 09, 2014, 12:23:34 pm
a good helmet, can easily reduce the pain that the hammer would inflict, while on the other hand, even a weak hit on your legs is capable of making you lose your balance

Dude that is a fucking mallet we are talking about here. Metal armor is good but it isnt some magical barrier that protects you from any weapon.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Panos_ on February 09, 2014, 12:26:44 pm
Read my post again, I never mention that it will FULLY PROTECT YOU, I said, that a good helmet can reduce the PAIN, in other words reduce the damage.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Nightmare798 on February 09, 2014, 12:28:55 pm
Read my post again, I never mention that it will FULLY PROTECT YOU, I said, that a good helmet can reduce the PAIN, in other words reduce the damage.

Yeah but pain and knockdown are two different things. It is not about how painful the hit can be, it can still send you falling.

And yea my bad, that is not mallet, it is a hammer, but still.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Grumbs on February 09, 2014, 01:55:15 pm
Definitely sounds like a good idea. We've been talking about knockdown modifiers for increased/decreased chances to certain parts of the body as well as a revised base knock down formula. Want it so that precise, strong hits in the correct areas are rewarded while preventing knockdown from random glances/weak hits.

This and making roll less finicky would make knockdown more interesting.

Agree with this. Knockdowns should be triggered by something the player has done, rather than random factors behind the scenes. So if you perform a specific action you get a knockdown, not a random chance on each hit

Which specific action results in a knockdown i'm not sure on though. Legs to me sounds like an idea just because they are often harder to hit with swings, especially with shorter weapons which knockdown weapons generally are.. Would be good if only held attacks knock down too, similar to crushthrough. These are all things that reduce the randomness while allowing the player to have an opportunity to make a decision about how to fight an opponent. If the player performs all the actions he could then have a higher chance to cause a knockdown.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Jarlek on February 09, 2014, 04:55:03 pm
Yeah, it's this. I was thinking it was on the right track, not exactly what the OP says, sorry if I confused anyone. There are many different hit locations that have a numerical value, that's why I wasn't too specific since I didn't remember them all, but generally the head and leg area for increased and a few other areas for decreased.

@Jarlek

The current maximum damage you need to do maximize knockdown is 20-40 raw. 40 raw can be reached with 2-3PS with a mid-damage blunt weapon. Just going to increase it to normal damage ranges, not really making it so only strength builds can ever get knockdown. At this point, we can't do much other than fix the formula since this is a WSE thing and only 1 person able to change all that.
I knew that already and I don't really want that to change. Doing lots of damage is already reward enough. People complaining about being knockdowned by a weak weapon 6+ times in a fight never seem to realise that they needed 6+ hits to die in the first place. A weapon that needs that many hits to kill is hardly "OP" no matter how good their knockedown chance is. Having us choose between two weapons, one with good damage but low knockdownchance and the other with medium damage and decent knockdown chance is better than always taking the highest damaging one. Don't make raw damage be important for knockdown chance. Weight and speed (negatively, higher speed = less chance) would be better than just increasing the raw damage requirement.

Although I would still prefer having held attacks and where on the body it hits be the main factors. But cmp is busy with others stuff :(
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Tydeus on February 09, 2014, 06:24:04 pm
If we stick with the formula I proposed, leg and head hits will have increased chance, while body hits will have less.
Change the knockdown formula so that leg and head hits use formula 1 and all other hits use formula 2.
Formula 1: (rand(0.0, 1.0) + .05 < min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * min((raw_damage - 40.0) * 0.2, 5.0) * 0.015)
Formula 2: (rand(0.0, 1.0) < min(max(item_weight * 0.33, 1.0), 2.0) * min(max((raw_damage - 40.0) * 0.5, 5.0), 15.0) * 0.015)
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: sF_Guardian on February 09, 2014, 09:23:45 pm
Knockdown should be 100% chance if you hit a male char in his manhood.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Jarlek on February 09, 2014, 10:04:41 pm
Knockdown should be 100% chance if you hit a male char in his manhood.
Buff testicle hits.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Utrakil on February 09, 2014, 10:19:42 pm
While we are on it:
Can we please change crushtrough so it gives a 100% knockdown but doesn't deal damage when blocked??
It just feels so wrong that I loose 3/4 of my HP when a great maul hits my shield.
It feels justified to go down for short but ther should be a difference whether the shield is up or not.
When crushtrough is not blocked I am OK loosing HP and getting knocked down.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Kafein on February 10, 2014, 10:25:20 am
I want to be invulnerable, thanks
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Utrakil on February 10, 2014, 01:03:34 pm

Bullshit!
I only want to have a difference between "shield up" and "shield down".
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Kafein on February 10, 2014, 01:06:34 pm
Bullshit!
I only want to have a difference between "shield up" and "shield down".

There is already. I don't know exactly by how much the damage is reduced, but you don't take as much when you block. And more importantly, it's exactly the reverse of what you suggest. Right now blocking a crushthrough blow will prevent you from falling.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Utrakil on February 10, 2014, 01:08:35 pm
There is already. I don't know exactly by how much the damage is reduced, but you don't take as much when you block. And more importantly, it's exactly the reverse of what you suggest. Right now blocking a crushthrough blow will prevent you from falling.
right now I loose halve or more HP when I block a maul. so two hits kill me whether I block or not. so there is no difference between block or not.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Smoothrich on February 10, 2014, 01:10:26 pm
I think it makes more sense than the current RANDOM knockdown chance, you hit someone on the feet with a blut weapon, then he gets knocked down!

Discuss.

Here we have Joe Pesci and the cast of Casino demonstrate the ineffectiveness of Blunt Type Damage on anywhere but the legs

Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Utrakil on February 10, 2014, 01:38:45 pm
There is already. I don't know exactly by how much the damage is reduced, but you don't take as much when you block. And more importantly, it's exactly the reverse of what you suggest. Right now blocking a crushthrough blow will prevent you from falling.
Ok I just tested with bonk. I die after 2 hits no mather whether I block or not. And yes as you say blocking prevents from falling.
Still I think it would make more sense if I get knocked down anyways but blocking protects from damage. And yes what I suggest is just opposite to the current state. This is why I suggest a change.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Vibe on February 10, 2014, 01:47:42 pm
Due to how ineffective blunt damage to head is in real life, I think it would only make sense to tweak cRPG blunt damage to head to heal the victim instead.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Osiris on February 10, 2014, 02:05:07 pm
There shouldn't be any 100% chance of knockdown as long as we cant roll on siege :(
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Grumbs on February 10, 2014, 03:04:56 pm
Ok I just tested with bonk. I die after 2 hits no mather whether I block or not. And yes as you say blocking prevents from falling.
Still I think it would make more sense if I get knocked down anyways but blocking protects from damage. And yes what I suggest is just opposite to the current state. This is why I suggest a change.

If you're trying to block a maul overhead with a shield or held block you already pretty much screwed up. You have quite a few options to avoid getting hit by a held overhead. Team mates should always focus down a mauler first, and a held overhead is slow enough that you should be able to interrupt his attack or move out of the way
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Utrakil on February 10, 2014, 03:14:52 pm
My point is that it simply feels unnatural to get seriously injured if there is a shield between you and the attacking weapon. It would not at all feel unnatural if you get knocked down if a maul hits your shield. it would just give a feeling of the power the maul has.
this is why I suggest to change crushthrough to a 100% knockdown instead of damage through block.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Dooz on February 10, 2014, 09:11:24 pm
My point is that it simply feels unnatural to get seriously injured if there is a shield between you and the attacking weapon. It would not at all feel unnatural if you get knocked down if a maul hits your shield. it would just give a feeling of the power the maul has.
this is why I suggest to change crushthrough to a 100% knockdown instead of damage through block.

probably right. all those cartoon characters that were killed by pianos falling on them should have just held a piece of cardboard over their heads, thus absorbing all the damage and leaving them unscathed. stupid animated animals.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Utrakil on February 10, 2014, 09:44:23 pm
buff pianos
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Normanguy on February 10, 2014, 09:45:13 pm
Of course it shouldn't!!
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Dooz on February 10, 2014, 09:50:53 pm
buff pianos

be my president
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Penitent on February 11, 2014, 03:30:10 am
If we stick with the formula I proposed, leg and head hits will have increased chance, while body hits will have less.

Move to realism graveyard thread.

;)


Jk, sounds pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: kinngrimm on February 11, 2014, 12:09:28 pm
If we stick with the formula I proposed, leg and head hits will have increased chance, while body hits will have less.
what about (Great/Long)Mauls/Mallets, which hit like visibly besides you? will they still hit, will those with chrusthough&knockdown always be counted as head hit?
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Sagar on February 11, 2014, 12:46:37 pm
I read so many great suggestions here  :rolleyes:
Lets add some common sense suggestions also.

* remove knockdown for 1H - if opponent have 24 or more STR
* unable to knockdown (with any weapons) - for 15 or lower STR
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Sniger on February 14, 2014, 02:59:43 pm
200% you will drop if I hit you in the face with a maul. not really sure you will drop if I hit your knee. think you are still able to stand since you have 2 legs. should be headshot with knockdown weapon = 100% knockdown chance (once every 30sec or something)

I read so many great suggestions here  :rolleyes:
Lets add some common sense suggestions also.

* remove knockdown for 1H - if opponent have 24 or more STR
* unable to knockdown (with any weapons) - for 15 or lower STR

IRL, anyone can be knocked down. its not about your strength or lack of same. thin fat or buffed, we are all alike. when some persons is harder to knock is due to thicker skull, mentality and other things you have to be born with.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: oreshy on February 14, 2014, 03:54:34 pm
...this doesn't fits to a certain theme.

...there were always a chance to knockdown an enemy in the medieval past , doesn't matter which part of the body got a hit.

...this could interfere some peoples fun, plz respect historical authenticity.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Eugene on February 15, 2014, 03:04:36 am
a good helmet, can easily reduce the pain that the hammer would inflict, while on the other hand, even a weak hit on your legs is capable of making you lose your balance

Helmets in the late medieval era were exceptional, as was most plate armour. In plate duels IRL, the aim on the game was to hilt bash to cause concussion,or use blunt weapons. Both of these could cause knockdown, especially the concussion.

People would hilt-bash with long swords and then be able to snip the unplated areas more easily.
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Normanguy on February 15, 2014, 08:29:35 pm
Not being funny but just lock this thread.

Ridiculous idea.

If anyone is going to refer to 'realism' again for this thread
Why dont i get a blunt weapon and smack you full on anywhere and expect you to still be standing you'll be a fking robot any blunt weapon anywhere is going to cripple you enough to drop a person to the ground so to add only hitting the legs is a stupid idea.

Sorry to be blunt but it's to the point! :)

Cheers
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Sniger on February 15, 2014, 09:00:54 pm
...this doesn't fits to a certain theme.

...there were always a chance to knockdown an enemy in the medieval past , doesn't matter which part of the body got a hit.

...this could interfere some peoples fun, plz respect historical authenticity.

butthurt preteen who cant leave it  :lol: just like me and the balance  :lol:

Not being funny but just lock this thread.

Ridiculous idea.

If anyone is going to refer to 'realism' again for this thread
Why dont i get a blunt weapon and smack you full on anywhere and expect you to still be standing you'll be a fking robot any blunt weapon anywhere is going to cripple you enough to drop a person to the ground so to add only hitting the legs is a stupid idea.

Sorry to be blunt but it's to the point! :)

Cheers

i disagree :D its all about mass contra speed :) if you are small and weak with a blunt weapon and you hit some huge Neanderthal he will say "ouch" and then he will rip you a new asshole
Title: Re: Knockdown, should only apply when you hit someone on the legs.
Post by: Normanguy on February 15, 2014, 09:22:16 pm
Yeah thats a different stpry thats going into peoples builds

Early if you have 2-3 power satrike your not going to do much
However

4+ powerstrike it will hurt and will most likely almost knock you down

So i'm not dissbuting that but knockdown inly on legs is stupid :)