spears lack knockdown aswell even though staffs have it. (imagine how op warspear as example would be with knockdown)
Giving the picks knockdown would create conflicts with other 1h kd weapons if the stats given were actually decent. So don't plan on this happening.
The blunt mode of the Bec makes the Long Hafted Knobbed/Spiked Maces nearly obsolete, yet someone thought that was a good idea. A couple nights ago on NA2, something like 75% of the melee players were running around with Becs in secondary mode.
You blame me, don't you?
It really doesn't, Phew. Check the loom "ranks" on the website. The bec has imodbits_polearm, the other two are dedicated kd weapons so they have imodbits_mace. Kind of an Apples & Oranges thing here. Sure it has kd, but the bec suffers a kd penalty due to having below 3 weight, while the others gain weight upon being heirloomed, and therefore get increased kd chance.
It really doesn't, Phew. Check the loom "ranks" on the website. The bec has imodbits_polearm, the other two are dedicated kd weapons so they have imodbits_mace. Kind of an Apples & Oranges thing here. Sure it has kd, but the bec suffers a kd penalty due to having below 3 weight, while the others gain weight upon being heirloomed, and therefore get increased kd chance.
...until after we see the effects of the new formula.what new formular?
what new formular?
I assume it's a rework of the knockdown chance calculation to reward higher quality hits (heatshots, held attacks, etc) with higher knockdown chance while making "poor quality" hits (near-glance, un-held torso hits, etc) be much less likely to knockdown.if done as you suppose, then it would be a good thing indeed.
if done as you suppose, then it would be a good thing indeed.He posted this earlier today:
If we stick with the formula I proposed, leg and head hits will have increased chance, while body hits will have less.
Quote from: Tydeus on 04 February 2014, 21:21:59
Change the knockdown formula so that leg and head hits use formula 1 and all other hits use formula 2.
Formula 1: (rand(0.0, 1.0) + .05 < min(item_weight * 0.33, 2.0) * min((raw_damage - 40.0) * 0.2, 5.0) * 0.015)
Formula 2: (rand(0.0, 1.0) < min(max(item_weight * 0.33, 1.0), 2.0) * min(max((raw_damage - 40.0) * 0.5, 5.0), 15.0) * 0.015)
I assume it's a rework of the knockdown chance calculation to reward higher quality hits (heatshots, held attacks, etc) with higher knockdown chance while making "poor quality" hits (near-glance, un-held torso hits, etc) be much less likely to knockdown.
The blunt mode of the Bec makes the Long Hafted Knobbed/Spiked Maces nearly obsolete, yet someone thought that was a good idea. A couple nights ago on NA2, something like 75% of the melee players were running around with Becs in secondary mode.
I assume it's a rework of the knockdown chance calculation to reward higher quality hits (heatshots, held attacks, etc) with higher knockdown chance while making "poor quality" hits (near-glance, un-held torso hits, etc) be much less likely to knockdown.
Knock down is a liability for 1hers now, since the roll is so fast and so long, forcing you to close the distance again with your short weapon. It's even worse for shielders due to the movement penalty. I don't think they really need it or would benefit that much.
Knockdown from the 1hs has always been a pet peeve of mine.
There is really nothing I dislike more in CRPG. (Knockdown in general)
I find it doesn't add anything to the game for me, only detracts from it. I don't want the ability to get a cheap swing on an opponent leading to free hits, it just cheapens it for me.
On the otherside, getting hit by a knockdown weapon, ending up on the floor and usually dieing. That's pretty irritating to say the least.
Especially when the hit does less than 10% damage, yet I still end up on the floor for them to likely kill me. (Usually 1hs from my experience)
In a dream scenario, I'd like to see knockdown removed from most the 1h weapons, leaving just the heavier ones like warhammer, military hammer etc.
This could be tied in with a 1h rebalance
- shield skill to every 6 agi (free up points, allows 1hers to get similar builds to 2h/polearms at the same levels e.g. 18 21 lvl 30)
- 1h stab nerf (keep the animation, reduce damage 1-2 points)
- a buff to the weapons that lose KD (dmg or speed were appropriate)
Just my 2 cents/pennies
This could be tied in with a 1h rebalance
- shield skill to every 6 agi (free up points, allows 1hers to get similar builds to 2h/polearms at the same levels e.g. 18 21 lvl 30)
- 1h stab nerf (keep the animation, reduce damage 1-2 points)
- a buff to the weapons that lose KD (dmg or speed were appropriate)
When I used to use knockdown 1h, it caused me to teamwound allies about as often as it enabled a "free" kill (knock someone down, teammate accidentally walks over them while they are on the ground). I'd probably be more likely to use the Spathovaklion if it had knockdown removed, as its stats are still nice without knockdown. Military Sickle would fit the bill if it didn't look like a farm implement.
Your shield skill idea is interesting, although 4 shield skill is all anyone really needs nowadays, and that's still a good use of points compared to say 4 IF. 1h stab is indeed quite powerful, but as long as 2h has lolstab and pole has lightning overheads and right swing, 1h might as well have something OP as well.
In my experience, although mostly related to Strat battles, 1h is the worst class to hit someone on the ground with. The overhead is questionable on whether or not it will hit a downed opponent and if you miss with a longer weapon you risk bouncing and getting ganked. The right swing is wide, and often gets caught on teammates also trying to steal a free kill. The left swing requires you to stand over the body, which means you're going to get team hit. It used to drive me nuts in Strat when I scored a knockdown with a great maul or long maul only to have a teammate 1h shielder stand over the guy and then I TK him.
Knockdown from the 1hs has always been a pet peeve of mine.
There is really nothing I dislike more in CRPG. (Knockdown in general)
I find it doesn't add anything to the game for me, only detracts from it. I don't want the ability to get a cheap swing on an opponent leading to free hits, it just cheapens it for me.
On the otherside, getting hit by a knockdown weapon, ending up on the floor and usually dieing. That's pretty irritating to say the least.
Especially when the hit does less than 10% damage, yet I still end up on the floor for them to likely kill me. (Usually 1hs from my experience)
In a dream scenario, I'd like to see knockdown removed from most the 1h weapons, leaving just the heavier ones like warhammer, military hammer etc.
This could be tied in with a 1h rebalance
- shield skill to every 6 agi (free up points, allows 1hers to get similar builds to 2h/polearms at the same levels e.g. 18 21 lvl 30)
- 1h stab nerf (keep the animation, reduce damage 1-2 points)
- a buff to the weapons that lose KD (dmg or speed were appropriate)
Just my 2 cents/pennies
When I used to use knockdown 1h, it caused me to teamwound allies about as often as it enabled a "free" kill (knock someone down, teammate accidentally walks over them while they are on the ground). I'd probably be more likely to use the Spathovaklion if it had knockdown removed, as its stats are still nice without knockdown. Military Sickle would fit the bill if it didn't look like a farm implement.
Your shield skill idea is interesting, although 4 shield skill is all anyone really needs nowadays, and that's still a good use of points compared to say 4 IF. 1h stab is indeed quite powerful, but as long as 2h has lolstab and pole has lightning overheads and right swing, 1h might as well have something OP as well.
All this hysteria about 1h knockdown is purely psychological.
1h can swing faster, more swings can occur in the same time frame with a 1h than polearm or 2h (average polearm, 2h, 1h)
It was just a point on the frequency of knockdowns, 1h gets more attempts in the same timeframe.
That's all.
But they don't. Slower and shorter weapons (on average) don't get more hits.Slow?
The thing is, if you consider single hits, the 1h hits are less likely to kill therefore more likely to knockdown.
Also note that since the introduction of rolls, knockdowns already had very little remaining impact on combat. It's fairly easy to achieve 100% rolling hence a knockdown is actually a liability in that context as it removes the initiative for the next hit, instead of giving a free hit.
I haven't really noticed pick stunning (or heck, using 1hs in general for stunning, even Iron Battle Axe/any blunt weapon that ends up 2.5+ weight) being a big thing except against people using really light 1hs with no shield, though maybe it's just my build having low str/ps and me/other people not using enough held overheads. I guess I can't complain about the change if it doesn't really affect me though, and 100 speed 30b + kd at +3 seems too lulzy to pass up even if +3 Spathovaklion has .5 more weight and 11 more length with the same damage.
I don't think having a shield slows swings down for weapons that are just 1h weapons, I'd say that lack of reach + slower movement speed from shield weight/points used up in shield skill that could go to AGI/ATH make up for any speed differences though. Staff/Quarterstaff are pretty much the kings of viable kd attempts/second, and they're really easy to swing at the feet with.
I think most people choosing 1h picks/maces/hammers nowadays value hard-to-see models moreso than knockdown or stats. Everyone complains about the Spathovaklion being hard to see, but with Final Boss' texture pack it's a bright silver (much easier to see than the normal dark gray). Like I said before, I'm not a fan of 1h knockdown, but I do love the thump sound that blunt weapons make on contact.
I really wish the Spathovaklion had knockdown removed (maybe have 1b added to compensate). Then we'd have a nice thumpy 1h weapon without dealing with all the annoyances of knockdown. That thing doesn't look like it could knock anyone over; it has less mass at the head than any axe.
Slow?
Which weapon are you talking about?
Slowest I could find is 95 speed. (military hammer)
Senni, speed doesn't translate directly across like that. Also don't forget to factor in that having a shield slows your swings down too. Plus 1hers are generally shorter and can't start swinging until they're closer in.
Polearm and 2h KD weapons don't tend to kill in one hit either.
They would be more likely to KD on a single hit basis. (If KD is largely raw dmg based, which iirc it is)
Weight Old Max % Raw damage needed with new formula and same weight for old max % New Max % (70 raw damage vs head/legs)
2 10 ~53.33 22.5
2.5 12.5 ~56.68 22.5
3 15 ~60.00 22.5
3.5 17.5 ~60.24 25.99
4 20 ~60.20 29.7
4.5 22.5 ~60.20 33.41
5 25 ~60.20 37.13
5.5 27.5 ~60.20 40.84
6 30 ~60.20 44.55
This. Speed rating has only a very small impact on the actual time to hit in combat. Compare the time between clicking and hitting of a stock poleaxe (90) with a stock scimitar (100), both in the best conditions (i.e. turning into your swings) and you'll get funny results.
If you consider a target with full HP it's true, but the damage difference between 1h and the others is sufficient to increase the chances of a knockdown happening at least once during a duel with 1h (due to the additional hits required to kill) beyond that of 2h and polearms.
I'd personally rather see knockdown completely eliminated as that would justify buffing the damage of knockdown weapons which is what they really need.
When knockdown was nerfed very little was done to compensate. I assume Tydeus's reasoning was that knockdown weapons were not stronger or weaker but rather the ideal way to use them changed but after seeing the effects of the changes I don't agree with that.
Just to put things in perspective, before the knockdown changes I repeatedly did the "hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit" combo using a +3 mil. hammer, 6PS and 184 effective wpf (that's a lot of bonus damage). Against most guys running around with +3 heavy kuyak, when i was lucky I could pull that combo off three times in a row and they'd still get up afterwards. That's "hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit, knockdown, hit, kick, hit", plus some swings before and after. People always say "that's a lot of free hits" and it is. But it also means that without knockdown I'd need to make them miss their block (or rather, miss their spam) 7 or more times on average. In my opinion knockdown weapons are worthless right now, and in my expertise 1h knockdown weapons definitely are.
We're thinking about implementing new dodge mechanics but we want to make sure the community is at least interested in the possibilities first. There are three possible dodge type mechanics we're thinking about. The first, would allow you to roll and then stand up from a knock down. This would keep you from being so helpless on the ground without completely taking the advantages of knockdown away from players. Picture a relatively fast 1 to 1 1/2m left/right roll from the knockdown positions. Nothing too game changing here, just another tool in the bag.
Next would be a sort of hop that moves you left, right, or back when executed. This would be a quick dodge that would only move you about 1 1/2 to 2m. Unlike a jump, the player doesn't get much higher off of the ground and we can choose whether or not to keep the animation to only locking the lower body. Unlike the others, this could allow players to block or attack during the dodge(possibly only block).
The last mechanic we're thinking about is a roll from the neutral position(standing) where all four(possibly 8) directions are possible. Total animation length is much longer than the others but distance traveled is also about 3m. Quick at the start, slow at the stand. I think of the dives in Dark Souls for a good example of this. We can change the animation, dive length, stand speed, etc, based on things like character stats and equipment.
We realize that full plate characters rolling around the server could really be an eyesore, as well as the fact that all of this could have significant positive or negative impacts on gameplay, so we're asking what the community thinks before we start developing and implementing these these(urist actually already has the core of the system done). We can choose to implement any combination of the previously mentioned systems, or none at all. So tell us what you think, maybe you've got some interesting ideas of your own?
Edit: We don't think of these as get out of jail free cards, but simply another tool that players can utilize in certain situations.
No follow up from this guy.
Urist was the one who scripted rolls while I was the one doing the animations. He kind of went inactive/stuff came up before he could get around to adjusting the distance. I haven't taken the time to learn how the whole thing works so that I can lower the roll distance, as it's not just a simple linear equation or even only one function at that. I guess I'll take a look, although there's a bunch of other stuff I should probably do as well, and I'm busy/uninterested atm.
- Most players haven't grown accustomed to hitting the head/legs properly enough. The % knockdown is actually higher when hitting those areas 100% of the time compared to the past