cRPG
cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lemon on January 05, 2014, 02:13:27 am
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I blame EU for the now growing amount of ranged, especially on horseback in NA 1. Just now on NA 1....
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I should specify there was another one behind me upon taking this SS, hence the 5th person.
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It's just NA being one step before EU in the ranged-evolution-chain.
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:|
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Gotta love Tydeus
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le sigh :[
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The whining is spreading.
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Gotta love Tydeus
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don't care still gonna play it
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you got banned.
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apparently having full armor and a weapon but choosing to punch the enemy is bannable for leeching.
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Well yeah, when it is openly known and said that the counter to horse archers is more ranged and people refuse to adapt (take some pts in throwing or xbow rather than that 1 extra powerstrike) the result is well... more HA.
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Because more ranged to counter ranged leads to more ranged to counter ranged
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Then more shielders to counter the range that is countering the range that is countering the HAs :D
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If your intention is to kill ranged you might as well shoot them. You have good ability against ranged, melee and cav. Plus you can deal damage often without the risk of standing in a melee
A shield is a defensive ability, it deals no damage and once in range you can have very lengthy melee fights. Manual block completely negates damage, and while facing someone with a shield you expose your sides and back to enemy attacks
People should be encouraged to go pure melee because it counters ranged better than ranged counters ranged. You shouldn't have such high penetration on higher armour, and ranged should not have such good melee capability. Cav should be cheaper and more effective against ranged
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Everything should be more effective against ranged. See that peasant over there, should be more effective against ranged, see that rock, should be more effective against ranged.
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Everything should be more effective against ranged. See that peasant over there, should be more effective against ranged, see that rock, should be more effective against ranged.
But then ranged being more effective against ranged turns into an infinite cycle where everyone shoots lasers our of their eyes to instantly kill people.
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:D Just give people more viable alternatives to choosing ranged when there are too much ranged and everything will be fine.
You should be able to say "get a shield" with a straight face.
Armour should be worth using after medium.
Certain horses should have a specific role of targetting ranged, and it should be viable from a cost perspective compared to simply playing ranged
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But then ranged being more effective against ranged turns into an infinite cycle where everyone shoots lasers our of their eyes to instantly kill people.
Yeah, but that sounds awesome.
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But then ranged being more effective against ranged turns into an infinite cycle where everyone shoots lasers our of their eyes to instantly kill people.
Perhaps that would make this game actually fun and not just a shiny piece of shit that we my old friends keep going back to like druggies.
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Solution: Buff 2h Cav
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Solution: Buff 2h Cav
Or make helicopters allready....
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The real hidden truth to why people love playing as HA and HX is simple. They want a reason to be able to bump infantry with the horses
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Devs should implement occasional horse plagues, where all dem beasties either die or walk backwards only or are VERY slow or something like that. Would be fun.
And Fruity: no worries. I will always be there, on foot, and shooting my Lemon-puncture-and-squeeze-Devices from the ground... :)
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wow hirlok good job you made my son cry when you told me you were gonna shoot me. now you have to +1 or my son will cry
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Ranged counters horse archers. The counter to foot ranged is not more foot ranged. Now I know I get flamed every time I spew the truth, but get a shield and more importantly get a team. One shielder by himself can usually scatter ranged, a group of them can massacre your famous archer nests/groups. Yes, I say this with a straight face because I watch people like Matey get into the middle of a group of archers and take half of them down before they even notice. I've seen Gmno do the same without a shield as well.
You want to stop getting killed by something, figure out how and then implement it. It is a lot more effective and quicker than whining. Lots of HA's this season? Pick up throwing your next gen, 1 hvy throwing axe will usually kill their horse or scare them off. Lots of archers? Take extra points in shield. Yeah only frontal coverage, but last I checked giving your back to any enemy was a bad idea so that does not just apply to archers. (Hint, use your surroundings) Lots of shielders? Sidearm axe. etc. Whine does not counter anything.
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Ranged counters horse archers. The counter to foot ranged is not more foot ranged. Now I know I get flamed every time I spew the truth, but get a shield and more importantly get a team. One shielder by himself can usually scatter ranged, a group of them can massacre your famous archer nests/groups. Yes, I say this with a straight face because I watch people like Matey get into the middle of a group of archers and take half of them down before they even notice. I've seen Gmno do the same without a shield as well.
Shields don't counter ranged and never have. Keeping yourself from getting shot is a lot different than being a counter. And honestly if a shielder manages to massacre a group of ranged players by himself, I would put that down to the ranged players being stupid more than anything.
Shields only stop projectiles from the front arc. 2 ranged players will always beat a shielder unless the ranged players are retarded. The only REAL counter to ranged IS more ranged, which is why this problem happens over and over again.
People start going ranged > more people go ranged to counter > ranged hits critical mass > ranged gets nerfed > people respec to 2h/pole > people start going ranged
That's happened over and over again for the last 3 years. I don't see it changing.
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It's just NA being one step beforehind EU in the ranged-devolution-chain.
To say it differently and get your selfestime up NA, EU is more dumb as they walked down that wrote faster then you did.
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Ranged counters horse archers. The counter to foot ranged is not more foot ranged. Now I know I get flamed every time I spew the truth, but get a shield and more importantly get a team. One shielder by himself can usually scatter ranged, a group of them can massacre your famous archer nests/groups. Yes, I say this with a straight face because I watch people like Matey get into the middle of a group of archers and take half of them down before they even notice. I've seen Gmno do the same without a shield as well.
You want to stop getting killed by something, figure out how and then implement it. It is a lot more effective and quicker than whining. Lots of HA's this season? Pick up throwing your next gen, 1 hvy throwing axe will usually kill their horse or scare them off. Lots of archers? Take extra points in shield. Yeah only frontal coverage, but last I checked giving your back to any enemy was a bad idea so that does not just apply to archers. (Hint, use your surroundings) Lots of shielders? Sidearm axe. etc. Whine does not counter anything.
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Shields don't counter ranged and never have. Keeping yourself from getting shot is a lot different than being a counter. And honestly if a shielder manages to massacre a group of ranged players by himself, I would put that down to the ranged players being stupid more than anything.
Shields only stop projectiles from the front arc. 2 ranged players will always beat a shielder unless the ranged players are retarded. The only REAL counter to ranged IS more ranged, which is why this problem happens over and over again.
People start going ranged > more people go ranged to counter > ranged hits critical mass > ranged gets nerfed > people respec to 2h/pole > people start going ranged
That's happened over and over again for the last 3 years. I don't see it changing.
This. The best counter to ranged is forum warfare. That's just how it is. Not because forum warfare is particularly effective, but rather for a lack of any better option.
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It is quite sad though that we have a single class chasing away half the community and the only counter to it is brutally flaming those who play it. But hey, who doesn't love some flaming.
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That class would would not be chasing away the server if people had the brains to use shields other than elite cav shields or knightly kite shields. With five shielding and a huscarl shield/heavy board shield you get a barrier around yourself that is impenetrable as long as you don't charge into the middle of an archer group. Try coming at an archer at the side. It limits the firing angles much better.
Tdlr; play smarter not harder.
Edit: the only time that I ever see ravens(the only clan that ever uses shields larger than horseman shields) get killed by ranged is when they get shot by an archer that they don't know about. After that archer hits a raven, though, he is a dead fucker.
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What counters ranged and horse ranged and cav, not shielders.
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What counters ranged and horse ranged are cav, not shielders.
Cav can counter ranged if they come in at the right time, but, if you have played with/vs a team that has smart shielders/large shielders/shielders with throwing like the ones on NA, you will understand exactly what I mean.
I played on EU a few moments ago and I can also say that you had about two people with heavy round shields and the rest were horseman heater shields. The worst part is that the shielders charged in the most mental way possible. It's not ranged that is killing the EU battle server, it is your shielders.
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Welcome to the range fest cRPG 2014.
Took you quite awhile :lol:
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Cav can counter ranged if they come in at the right time, but, if you have played with/vs a team that has smart shielders/large shielders/shielders with throwing like the ones on NA, you will understand exactly what I mean.
I played on EU a few moments ago and I can also say that you had about two people with heavy round shields and the rest were horseman heater shields. The worst part is that the shielders charged in the most mental way possible. It's not ranged that is killing the EU battle server, it is your shielders.
well agi whoring is strong in EU servers and the shields you mentioned are probably "heavy and slow" :rolleyes:
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well agi whoring is strong in EU servers and the shields you mentioned are probably "heavy and slow" :rolleyes:
Well when people want to kill ranged there more than welcome to use anti ranged equipment.
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Arbalest: the best counter to enemy ranged (and anything else that moves).
In all honesty, my highest priority as a ranged character is always enemy ranged. Once the enemy ranged is eliminated, you have a much greater variety of safe spots to reload and fire from. Your team also gains greater control of the battleground when hostile shooters are gone.
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Shields only stop projectiles from the front arc. 2 ranged players will always beat a shielder unless the ranged players are retarded.
Two anything should always beat one anything unless the two are retarded. I also did not mention shields countering ranged, rather helping scatter them because that is all one person can do against many people that refuse to engage in melee. The second part of that reads to get a team in which you can easily beat them. Shields are important in this tactic because they stop arrows from a frontal arc...which if you are smart is the only direction you should let archers shoot you from. 5 people attacking a group of 5 archers plays out very different if the offensive group has shields. It also plays very differently between crossing an open field or using the environment(buildings, hills, etc) against them. Get cav involved and nothing more needs to be said. Rusty, as a competent shielder I would have expected a different answer other than: ranged counter other ranged just give up on trying as a melee class.
Kafein, your face palm seems silly to me. You are basically saying adapting to your enemies is a stupid idea. Yes headbutting your way through a wall may eventually work (or give you a concussion), but I think it is a lot easier to just go get a sledgehammer and break it that way.
Now to mention the real hard counter to ranged: Cav. Problem is 90% of cav go solo and charge groups of archers alone, then get killed. But that goes back to the rule of balance where two of anything should beat one of anything.
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I mean i've noticed SOME tactics on NA 1, specifically the night of my ban, where both teams would make shield walls to defend from the ranged and it completely nullified the ranged. Rather than relying on a class to counter something- why not use tactics and teamwork?
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"if ranged counters ranged, everyone would go ranged"
...and everyone would be getting countered, which would make them rage.
Just think :wink:
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Two anything should always beat one anything unless the two are retarded. I also did not mention shields countering ranged, rather helping scatter them because that is all one person can do against many people that refuse to engage in melee. The second part of that reads to get a team in which you can easily beat them. Shields are important in this tactic because they stop arrows from a frontal arc...which if you are smart is the only direction you should let archers shoot you from. 5 people attacking a group of 5 archers plays out very different if the offensive group has shields. It also plays very differently between crossing an open field or using the environment(buildings, hills, etc) against them. Get cav involved and nothing more needs to be said. Rusty, as a competent shielder I would have expected a different answer other than: ranged counter other ranged just give up on trying as a melee class.
Kafein, your face palm seems silly to me. You are basically saying adapting to your enemies is a stupid idea. Yes headbutting your way through a wall may eventually work (or give you a concussion), but I think it is a lot easier to just go get a sledgehammer and break it that way.
Now to mention the real hard counter to ranged: Cav. Problem is 90% of cav go solo and charge groups of archers alone, then get killed. But that goes back to the rule of balance where two of anything should beat one of anything.
If people want to counter ranged with cav they will lose a shit tonne of money compared to simply playing ranged themselves and using a better counter. Cav is a very conditional counter. It depends a lot on the lay of the land and most ranged don't stand in a very expose position.
Adapting to ranged atm means to play ranged. Its a vicious circle that encourages people to play with game mechanics that M&B doesn't do particularly well, but gets the job done if you want your team to win
Using a shield is a compromise. You play with worse game mechanics than normal melee (imo), but at least you have some defense and can still play as mostly a melee char.
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The few afternoons and mornings that I've played in EU, there really weren't that many ranged. Months ago, yeah, there were level 31+ archers and crossbows blasting anything that moves.
What I noticed was the gigantic amount of cavalry. It was pretty cool, and I guess that Kapikulu had a bunch of players leave and make Sultan's Guard? EVERY SG player I saw was cavalry; was pretty awesome to see.
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So much shielder hate. I've been knocking out archers pretty easily with sword and board. All you have to do is come up behind em. If one sees you and starts shooting, no big deal. The rest are usually too engrossed in their shots and I'll clear a couple easy kills. This will be even easier as i finish my build. Anyone who says shielders aren't the be all and end all answer is right, because most people are retarded. If you don't want to "GO GET A SHIELD" you don't have to. But a smart shielder can get the job done a hell of a lot better than a smart 2h/pole.
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So the "nerf ranged" crowd, who say only ranged can counter other ranged, what is your proposed solution if only ranged can counter other ranged? That argument leaves only one option, to remove ranged or artificially nerf it for the sake of limiting people playing the classes. What a fucking terrible stance for people to take, thankfully the devs don't listen to you.
I believe shielders and cavalry can counter ranged quite effectively when used intelligently (i.e. tactics/terrain/teamwork, etc). When someone can hit you from a distance, the only way to hit them back is to either close the gap, or have something that can also hit them from a distance. I see people blindly rushing groups of archers all the time on EU1 and NA1. It's the nature of mob mentality. People aren't playing smart, and then they cry when ranged tears them up (who is playing smart and to their strengths).
If cavalry had more maneuverability, had a better lance angle, or wasn't so weak to projectiles, they would be a better counter to ranged classes than they already are. Isn't it possible to make cavalry stronger to bolts and arrows, and leave them in their ultra weak state to melee hits?
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4 Hoplites/1h shielders in a phalanx protecting 2-3 Arbalesters will win against any number of HA/HX. It's just that everyone would rather play 2h hero then whine about mounted ranged, than use tactics to counter it.
Phalanx formations were the historical counter to cavalry, and I don't see why that wouldn't also hold in cRPG:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaugamela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaugamela)
...or just play Siege like me. I can't remember the last time I saw a HX/HA.
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The argument of "get a shield, change your class etc." doesn't work only for one reason: People want to play with strong melee classes that use manual block, which are 2h and polearm.
I'm completely fine with that.
However in order to counter ranged, you do not have to adapt your build to be an anti-ranged force. non-shield infantry can do that perfectly fine. There are certain methods, which I also explained before. Non of these are hard counters, but they do work. After all, 2h/polearm is not supposed to counter ranged; it is otherwise. One must not forgot when dealing with your counter class, you must expect to have a harder time.
1-Teamplay. Can't deal with archers by yourself?
a-Protect your archers from getting their ass f*cked by enemy cav, inf and anything that comes close so they can do the job for you later.
b-Take some aid from friendly shielders. It is not always working as intended, and you need to be a bit familiar with the shielder but it works when there's no other options available.
2-Use buildings, walls... basically anything that gives you cover. Seeing an enemy archer on sight, just hide behind that building. Rest is up to the situation and your creativity.
3-Dodging. It really works. Not with hundred percent success of course, but it does wonders. Just try to estimate how the enemy ranged estimate you to move. It feels like a game of psychology to me after a while.
4- a-Get better athletics and wear lighter armor to be better at dodging, hiding, manuevering and overall backstabbing.
b- or get more ironflesh and wear heavier armor to negate penalty when you get hit. It also works up to a point, it's probably more effective versus Horse Archers since it is harder to escape from them and they have less damage dealing capability.
-Just find the balance that suits you among these two.
and now with MoTF:
5-Just hold flag with your teammates. You should be at your element, since it is an infantry task.
If you suck at those, or you don't believe those will work. You can hybridize:
1-Just get some 1h proficiency and some shield skill. I'm not saying you to drop your favourite weapon/change your class. If you're 2h, just be 1h/2h. Use each whenever you see necessary. Melee hybrids are really strong now.
2-Use throwing. Works also well against cav, and practically everything without a shield most of the time.
If you don't want to do that either:
Just change your class to something else maybe? You are free to be a cav, dedicated shielder, hoplite and even ranged (which you say will counter other ranged).
Don't forget that ranged counters ranged also works against you too, since now you've become ranged.
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Also, if the point system was changed to reward proximity to friendly damage dealers rather than proximity to enemy damage receivers, people would have a much larger incentive to protect their ranged allies. Obviously protecting your ranged allies increases your chance of winning, and winning offers the most rewards, but people are stupid and need smaller, more frequent "rewards" to reinforce behavior.
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Protecting ranged makes them vastly more powerful as they can shoot you all the time while you fight their guardians. The horror.
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In my own, personal opinion. Shields are a great tool to defend against Foot archers/Xbow. But shield by itself do not counter it.
The best true counter to it is just groups of melee (preferably some with shields) and positioning.
Archers are ususally slow because of the Weight of their arrows EVEN if they use light armor.
Xbows can be shut down easely since they'll have to be reloading the thing after each shot.
So the problem for most people is more or less Surviving the enemy ranged untill they actually REACH them. The tool to use that is either a shield, a group of players, Footwork or cav. Using the Environment and using the "natural" covers is also a nice way to achieve this but it's not always possible on every map.
One way or another, Hoping your ranged kills the enemy ranged is also a valid solution. And ranged is also sadly one of the only things that counters HA's/HX unless they are stupid enough to try to bump someone with a pole or sword.
The only other thing left that can counter them is their own stupidity or their lack of Focus, spacing or beeing oblivious about enemies coming from the side.
Anyway. That's just my 2 cents. *Meow* :3
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Also Macbeth3 you don't have to "hope" your ranged kills the enemy ranged, you can help protect a friendly ranged player yourself :shock:
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Also Macbeth3 you don't have to "hope" your ranged kills the enemy ranged, you can help protect a friendly ranged player yourself :shock:
I try to protect everyone. *Meow* :3