Author Topic: Well look EU, you're influencing NA  (Read 2782 times)

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Offline Jack1

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2014, 08:20:01 pm »
+2
What counters ranged and horse ranged are cav, not shielders.

Cav can counter ranged if they come in at the right time, but, if you have played with/vs a team that has smart shielders/large shielders/shielders with throwing like the ones on NA, you will understand exactly what I mean.

I played on EU a few moments ago and I can also say that you had about two people with heavy round shields and the rest were horseman heater shields. The worst part is that the shielders charged in the most mental way possible. It's not ranged that is killing the EU battle server, it is your shielders.
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Offline Tzar

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2014, 08:21:22 pm »
0
Welcome to the range fest cRPG 2014.

Took you quite awhile  :lol:
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline Prpavi

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2014, 08:26:16 pm »
0
Cav can counter ranged if they come in at the right time, but, if you have played with/vs a team that has smart shielders/large shielders/shielders with throwing like the ones on NA, you will understand exactly what I mean.

I played on EU a few moments ago and I can also say that you had about two people with heavy round shields and the rest were horseman heater shields. The worst part is that the shielders charged in the most mental way possible. It's not ranged that is killing the EU battle server, it is your shielders.


well agi whoring is strong in EU servers and the shields you mentioned are probably "heavy and slow"  :rolleyes:
And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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Offline Jack1

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2014, 08:29:33 pm »
0

well agi whoring is strong in EU servers and the shields you mentioned are probably "heavy and slow"  :rolleyes:

Well when people want to kill ranged there more than welcome to use anti ranged equipment.
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Offline Phantasmal

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2014, 08:37:39 pm »
+1
Arbalest: the best counter to enemy ranged (and anything else that moves).

In all honesty, my highest priority as a ranged character is always enemy ranged. Once the enemy ranged is eliminated, you have a much greater variety of safe spots to reload and fire from. Your team also gains greater control of the battleground when hostile shooters are gone.
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Offline Zanze

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2014, 08:39:26 pm »
+2
Shields only stop projectiles from the front arc. 2 ranged players will always beat a shielder unless the ranged players are retarded.

Two anything should always beat one anything unless the two are retarded. I also did not mention shields countering ranged, rather helping scatter them because that is all one person can do against many people that refuse to engage in melee. The second part of that reads to get a team in which you can easily beat them. Shields are important in this tactic because they stop arrows from a frontal arc...which if you are smart is the only direction you should let archers shoot you from. 5 people attacking a group of 5 archers plays out very different if the offensive group has shields. It also plays very differently between crossing an open field or using the environment(buildings, hills, etc) against them. Get cav involved and nothing more needs to be said. Rusty, as a competent shielder I would have expected a different answer other than: ranged counter other ranged just give up on trying as a melee class.

Kafein, your face palm seems silly to me. You are basically saying adapting to your enemies is a stupid idea. Yes headbutting your way through a wall may eventually work (or give you a concussion), but I think it is a lot easier to just go get a sledgehammer and break it that way.

Now to mention the real hard counter to ranged: Cav. Problem is 90% of cav go solo and charge groups of archers alone, then get killed. But that goes back to the rule of balance where two of anything should beat one of anything.

Offline Lemon

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2014, 09:25:40 pm »
-1
I mean i've noticed SOME tactics on NA 1, specifically the night of my ban, where both teams would make shield walls to defend from the ranged and it completely nullified the ranged. Rather than relying on a class to counter something- why not use tactics and teamwork?
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Offline Ronin

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2014, 09:31:28 pm »
0
"if ranged counters ranged, everyone would go ranged"

...and everyone would be getting countered, which would make them rage.


Just think :wink:
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Offline Grumbs

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2014, 12:29:36 am »
-1
Two anything should always beat one anything unless the two are retarded. I also did not mention shields countering ranged, rather helping scatter them because that is all one person can do against many people that refuse to engage in melee. The second part of that reads to get a team in which you can easily beat them. Shields are important in this tactic because they stop arrows from a frontal arc...which if you are smart is the only direction you should let archers shoot you from. 5 people attacking a group of 5 archers plays out very different if the offensive group has shields. It also plays very differently between crossing an open field or using the environment(buildings, hills, etc) against them. Get cav involved and nothing more needs to be said. Rusty, as a competent shielder I would have expected a different answer other than: ranged counter other ranged just give up on trying as a melee class.

Kafein, your face palm seems silly to me. You are basically saying adapting to your enemies is a stupid idea. Yes headbutting your way through a wall may eventually work (or give you a concussion), but I think it is a lot easier to just go get a sledgehammer and break it that way.

Now to mention the real hard counter to ranged: Cav. Problem is 90% of cav go solo and charge groups of archers alone, then get killed. But that goes back to the rule of balance where two of anything should beat one of anything.

If people want to counter ranged with cav they will lose a shit tonne of money compared to simply playing ranged themselves and using a better counter. Cav is a very conditional counter. It depends a lot on the lay of the land and most ranged don't stand in a very expose position.

Adapting to ranged atm means to play ranged. Its a vicious circle that encourages people to play with game mechanics that M&B doesn't do particularly well, but gets the job done if you want your team to win

Using a shield is a compromise. You play with worse game mechanics than normal melee (imo), but at least you have some defense and can still play as mostly a melee char.
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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2014, 01:01:39 am »
0
The few afternoons and mornings that I've played in EU, there really weren't that many ranged. Months ago, yeah, there were level 31+ archers and crossbows blasting anything that moves.

What I noticed was the gigantic amount of cavalry. It was pretty cool, and I guess that Kapikulu had a bunch of players leave and make Sultan's Guard? EVERY SG player I saw was cavalry; was pretty awesome to see.
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Offline tisjester

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2014, 03:17:13 pm »
+1
So much shielder hate. I've been knocking out archers pretty easily with sword and board.  All you have to do is come up behind em. If one sees you and starts shooting, no big deal.  The rest are usually too engrossed in their shots and I'll clear a couple easy kills. This will be even easier as i finish my build. Anyone who says shielders aren't the be all and end all answer is right, because most people are retarded. If you don't want to "GO GET A SHIELD" you don't have to. But a smart shielder can get the job done a hell of a lot better than a smart 2h/pole.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2014, 04:08:11 pm »
+2
So the "nerf ranged" crowd,  who say only ranged can counter other ranged, what is your proposed solution if only ranged can counter other ranged?  That argument leaves only one option, to remove ranged or artificially nerf it for the sake of limiting people playing the classes.  What a fucking terrible stance for people to take, thankfully the devs don't listen to you.

I believe shielders and cavalry can counter ranged quite effectively when used intelligently (i.e. tactics/terrain/teamwork, etc).  When someone can hit you from a distance, the only way to hit them back is to either close the gap, or have something that can also hit them from a distance.  I see people blindly rushing groups of archers all the time on EU1 and NA1.  It's the nature of mob mentality.  People aren't playing smart, and then they cry when ranged tears them up (who is playing smart and to their strengths). 

If cavalry had more maneuverability, had a better lance angle, or wasn't so weak to projectiles, they would be a better counter to ranged classes than they already are.  Isn't it possible to make cavalry stronger to bolts and arrows, and leave them in their ultra weak state to melee hits?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 04:11:21 pm by CrazyCracka420 »
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Offline Phew

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2014, 04:28:38 pm »
+3
4 Hoplites/1h shielders in a phalanx protecting 2-3 Arbalesters will win against any number of HA/HX. It's just that everyone would rather play 2h hero then whine about mounted ranged, than use tactics to counter it.

Phalanx formations were the historical counter to cavalry, and I don't see why that wouldn't also hold in cRPG:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaugamela

...or just play Siege like me. I can't remember the last time I saw a HX/HA.

Offline Ronin

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2014, 04:58:39 pm »
+2
The argument of "get a shield, change your class etc." doesn't work only for one reason: People want to play with strong melee classes that use manual block, which are 2h and polearm.

I'm completely fine with that.

However in order to counter ranged, you do not have to adapt your build to be an anti-ranged force. non-shield infantry can do that perfectly fine. There are certain methods, which I also explained before. Non of these are hard counters, but they do work. After all, 2h/polearm is not supposed to counter ranged; it is otherwise. One must not forgot when dealing with your counter class, you must expect to have a harder time.

1-Teamplay. Can't deal with archers by yourself?
a-Protect your archers from getting their ass f*cked by enemy cav, inf and anything that comes close so they can do the job for you later.
b-Take some aid from friendly shielders. It is not always working as intended, and you need to be a bit familiar with the shielder but it works when there's no other options available.
2-Use buildings, walls... basically anything that gives you cover. Seeing an enemy archer on sight, just hide behind that building. Rest is up to the situation and your creativity.
3-Dodging. It really works. Not with hundred percent success of course, but it does wonders. Just try to estimate how the enemy ranged estimate you to move. It feels like a game of psychology to me after a while.
4- a-Get better athletics and wear lighter armor to be better at dodging, hiding, manuevering and overall backstabbing.
b- or get more ironflesh and wear heavier armor to negate penalty when you get hit. It also works up to a point, it's probably more effective versus Horse Archers since it is harder to escape from them and they have less damage dealing capability.
-Just find the balance that suits you among these two.

and now with MoTF:

5-Just hold flag with your teammates. You should be at your element, since it is an infantry task.

If you suck at those, or you don't believe those will work. You can hybridize:
1-Just get some 1h proficiency and some shield skill. I'm not saying you to drop your favourite weapon/change your class. If you're 2h, just be 1h/2h. Use each whenever you see necessary. Melee hybrids are really strong now.
2-Use throwing. Works also well against cav, and practically everything without a shield most of the time.

If you don't want to do that either:

Just change your class to something else maybe? You are free to be a cav, dedicated shielder, hoplite and even ranged (which you say will counter other ranged).
Don't forget that ranged counters ranged also works against you too, since now you've become ranged.
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Offline Phew

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Re: Well look EU, you're influencing NA
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2014, 05:04:43 pm »
+3
Also, if the point system was changed to reward proximity to friendly damage dealers rather than proximity to enemy damage receivers, people would have a much larger incentive to protect their ranged allies. Obviously protecting your ranged allies increases your chance of winning, and winning offers the most rewards, but people are stupid and need smaller, more frequent "rewards" to reinforce behavior.