cRPG
cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Grumbs on January 02, 2014, 03:45:24 am
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Maybe 3 years too late, but how about doing something about xbow builds? They are utter BS with how good they are in melee and ranged
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Tydeus said he was already looking into xbows :mrgreen: im sure he will post if otherwise
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Tydeus has to contend with the other devs who veto him. Devs that can't play without ranged being how it is :(
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What's wrong with xbows?
They seem roughly equal to archers in melee and ranged play.
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What's wrong with xbows?
They seem roughly equal to archers in melee and ranged play.
DaveUKR.
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The thing with crossbows, is that they suffer from an attempt to balance them around two conflicting objectives. They're supposed to be easily accessible and yet somehow still every bit as effective as ranged. To make matters worse(not having any skill point sink worth talking about), high tier crossbows simply don't require any player skill to use due to missile speeds and damage. While not directly related to the above, they also have much higher average damage per hit than just about anything else in the entire mod.
This is just my stance on the items, they're clearly not shared by the Vain Onion-Eyed Pigeon Egg (http://forum.melee.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8). :twisted:
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Couldn't the necessity of wpf be increased? Lower base accuracy and reload speed on the crossbows but increase the effectiveness of wpf on them. It would make weapon master -the- stat sink required for crossbows, especially if they want to melee as well. This should still keep the "anyone can pick up and shoot" mindset, but make the difference between dedicated crossbowman and hybrid a lot larger. Bolts should still hurt like hell when they do hit so it shouldn't scare off too many people. Then again, this is just a quick idea I came up with that may or may not have been said before. If so, sorry for not reading too deeply into the issue and previous discussions of it.
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Couldn't the necessity of wpf be increased? Lower base accuracy and reload speed on the crossbows but increase the effectiveness of wpf on them. It would make weapon master -the- stat sink required for crossbows, especially if they want to melee as well. This should still keep the "anyone can pick up and shoot" mindset, but make the difference between dedicated crossbowman and hybrid a lot larger. Bolts should still hurt like hell when they do hit so it shouldn't scare off too many people. Then again, this is just a quick idea I came up with that may or may not have been said before. If so, sorry for not reading too deeply into the issue and previous discussions of it.
Something like this would work I would think. It probably needs refinement but I don't see why this wouldn't work.
Perhaps this isn't enough in your mind tydeus? Or you do want to do this but haven't been able to?
What's the ideas you have to make them somewhat more focused for the specialized players?
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Couldn't the necessity of wpf be increased? Lower base accuracy and reload speed on the crossbows but increase the effectiveness of wpf on them. It would make weapon master -the- stat sink required for crossbows, especially if they want to melee as well. This should still keep the "anyone can pick up and shoot" mindset, but make the difference between dedicated crossbowman and hybrid a lot larger. Bolts should still hurt like hell when they do hit so it shouldn't scare off too many people. Then again, this is just a quick idea I came up with that may or may not have been said before. If so, sorry for not reading too deeply into the issue and previous discussions of it.
Forcing xbowies to spec x/30+ builds makes it practically a certainty we'll have issues with a shitload of new SBish kiting xbowies, I'd be cool with it if the weight was further increased to compensate, but I doubt that's what people really want. If possible I'd love for crossbowmen to rotate their field of view/character much slower while having their crossbow out, this'd make xbow aiming the least bit skillbased, make using a crossbow unique in other ways than being easy and not requiring skill investment, and make crossbow facehug shooting less convenient (shield pierces pretty much certainly at facehug range, an arb can easily onehit or take the majority of someones hp at facehug range, unlimited amount of time having the xbow in shooting position unlike archers makes keeping your slight distance until they fire or their reticule grows huge not an option, you can't fucking miss at facehug range, etc).
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I think crossbows should have the accuracy penalty of being held to long like a bow does. It seems like it might get tiring holding something like a crossbow up for awhile especially after pulling the string back. I dunno, screw realism, first bring in game balance.
I think instead of a skill requirement maybe give them a higher strength requirement. Arbalest has a 21 str requirement and Heavy Crossbow gets something like a 19 str requirement. Making the crossbowmen who want to be hard hitters less accurate, have little kiting capabilities, but are also hard hitting in melee with very low melee wpf.
I think limiting a crossbowmens ability to turn while reloading is a good idea. They have way to much safety while reloading, they should be weakest while reloading, not most aware. But of course if this is added you must also remove the "view outfit" feature.
I also think the "View Outfit" feature in Warband should be taken out for everyone. I have to admit I love using it, I use it constantly to watch my back. But it's a really lame feature since you never know if that guy you're behind actually sees you or is he oblivious to my presence?
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As people said, raise the wpf bar for xbows. Also bag of bolts should weight 10-15 kg, because 13 steel bolts is enough for most xbowers (archers need more projectiles because they lack accuracy compared to xbows).
Also, nerf the shit out of those tiny ass bows, while you're at it.
Edit: Almost forgot, raise STR req for xbows. Arba/Hxbow 18 STR huehue
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isnt it a good thing to have working hybrids? you can have a weapon and
a shield
a ranged weapon
a horse
whatever. diversity ftw.
if all, id say give archers better melee capabilities. their ranged capability isnt that much more efficient then xbows to have them need higher req then the latter.
engrish ftw sry
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So you want to buff ranged? That could work, but it would be a buff and melee would cry even more.
Honestly, I would buff archers and their melee ability and also xbows a bit. But I would also remove Shield and Riding skill and implement Riding and Shield wpf (I know it's abbreviation for weapon proficiency but who cares). Also would give a ton of wpf points to everyone but change the wpf curve so you can't get more than 175-185 in one branch. Also make horses way cheaper. Makes perfect sense because everyone can ride a go-cart, it's not like Warband has decent riding mechanics.
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Remove shield piercing entirely. If there is one single most important thing to do about crossbows, it's that.
After that, reduce the number of bolts per quiver and/or increase the slot count of heavy crossbows and arbalests to 3. Xbow/1h/shield builds take much too long to die once cornered if they turtle up. If you need something else, decrease missile speed.
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The thing with crossbows, is that they suffer from an attempt to balance them around two conflicting objectives. They're supposed to be easily accessible and yet somehow still every bit as effective as ranged. To make matters worse(not having any skill point sink worth talking about), crossbows simply don't require any player skill to use due to missile speeds. 42 to 60 missile speed vs 38 to 48. And while not directly related to the above, they also have much higher average damage per hit than just about anything else in the entire mod.
This is just my stance on the items, they're clearly not shared by the Vain Onion-Eyed Pigeon Egg (http://forum.melee.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8). :twisted:
I always knew Fasaderp is every bit of useless we always claimed him to be. 8-)
btw... Best Thread 2014.
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yup leshy, at some point chadz hinted that they might implement sth kinda like that in bg, yay.
to clarify my poorly worded post: i dont think xbows need a nerf, but archers melee capability a slight buff.
kaf, i concur that it would be nicer if people have to decide to either have a shield, or an xbow. or, if they want both, then they should be subpar in either single proficiency.
there again, pf instead of skill would come in handy.
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I think one of the main problem is that ranged is too versatile. People should choose ranged or melee because what happens is people wonder why they should play pure melee when they might as well have ranged too and still have a good chance in melee. After all manual block, footwork and a bit of PS is often all you need to either delay a melee player while team mates shoot him or join in, or to simply kill him yourself. 1 hand stab especially is lethal with a bit of agi. I see some xbowers with shields even now, so they don't even need to know how to manual block to delay an attacker once he is in range
Nah I think we need to move away from hybrid ranged with melee, we just get this master of all trade characters and more people get ranged to counter them and there is less reason to play pure melee
About balancing xbows, I like the idea of turnspeed nerf for xbows if possible. Missile speed reduction, extra weight etc all help. But that doesn't change their melee capability when they drop the xbow
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Also, fixing shield coverage against projectiles would help un-fucking population balance. When you stand on top of the walls looking down on a ladder and some archer on that ladder can headshot you through your shield, what is the use of that shield ?
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I had some experience with 1wpf and crossbow. It's pretty difficult for some shots at light crossbow and below, but a +3 arbalest with +3 steel bolts feels very accurate and fast for no wpf investment. When there are few players left, finding an xbow on the ground seems like the most optimal strategy.
I like these ideas:
Couldn't the necessity of wpf be increased? Lower base accuracy and reload speed on the crossbows but increase the effectiveness of wpf on them. It would make weapon master -the- stat sink required for crossbows, especially if they want to melee as well.
This would make it harder for random 1wpf guys like me to find an xbow on the ground near the end of a round and dominate the field. It should still be an option to help out against easier targets such as cav, but it shouldn't give you an absolute advantage over everything imo.
I think crossbows should have the accuracy penalty of being held to long like a bow does. It seems like it might get tiring holding something like a crossbow up for awhile especially after pulling the string back. I dunno, screw realism, first bring in game balance.
I think instead of a skill requirement maybe give them a higher strength requirement. Arbalest has a 21 str requirement and Heavy Crossbow gets something like a 19 str requirement. Making the crossbowmen who want to be hard hitters less accurate, have little kiting capabilities, but are also hard hitting in melee with very low melee wpf.
I think limiting a crossbowmens ability to turn while reloading is a good idea. They have way to much safety while reloading, they should be weakest while reloading, not most aware. But of course if this is added you must also remove the "view outfit" feature.
Above 15 for an arbalest makes sense and gives some breathing room to the underused crossbow and light crossbow without having to nerf stats.
I like the other choices, too, but they would need to be tested extensively to get a good feeling for what's fair. I don't particularly feel that turning while reloading is much of a problem, but it does make sense that they should be most vulnerable at that time. Some xbows may hate me for this, but maybe restricting movement until the whole reload animation is over might be an alternative? (would need a dedicated xbow to tell me why it's a bad idea). I think indefinite hold with perfect accuracy is a little breaking with hardly any risks, too.
Remove shield piercing entirely. If there is one single most important thing to do about crossbows, it's that.
After that, reduce the number of bolts per quiver and/or increase the slot count of heavy crossbows and arbalests to 3. Xbow/1h/shield builds take much too long to die once cornered if they turtle up. If you need something else, decrease missile speed.
I definitely agree with the first. I think steel bolts should be better balanced against normal bolts and slightly decreasing the ammo for steel bolts does make sense, too. I think I heard this first from Pentecost, but I like the idea of extra penalties for carrying multiple stacks of ammo for archers/xbows, just like we have with shields.
Also, fixing shield coverage against projectiles would help un-fucking population balance. When you stand on top of the walls looking down on a ladder and some archer on that ladder can headshot you through your shield, what is the use of that shield ?
Shield coverage is good IMO. The shields with good coverage/ high HP+low resistance just shouldn't get pierced by everything, especially since they are clunky in melee and slow you down even more.
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Shield coverage is good IMO. The shields with good coverage/ high HP+low resistance just shouldn't get pierced by everything, especially since they are clunky in melee and slow you down even more.
It doesn't feel like shield models reflect actual shield coverage, especially when comparing rectangular and round shields. What I'd like to see fixed is getting shot through the shield on the left or right side.
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It doesn't feel like shield models reflect actual shield coverage, especially when comparing rectangular and round shields. What I'd like to see fixed is getting shot through the shield on the left or right side.
I've been talking about making shields effective against ranged for some time. They aren't doing what they should.
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I think crossbows should have the accuracy penalty of being held to long like a bow does. It seems like it might get tiring holding something like a crossbow up for awhile especially after pulling the string back. I dunno, screw realism, first bring in game balance.
I think instead of a skill requirement maybe give them a higher strength requirement. Arbalest has a 21 str requirement and Heavy Crossbow gets something like a 19 str requirement. Making the crossbowmen who want to be hard hitters less accurate, have little kiting capabilities, but are also hard hitting in melee with very low melee wpf.
I think limiting a crossbowmens ability to turn while reloading is a good idea. They have way to much safety while reloading, they should be weakest while reloading, not most aware. But of course if this is added you must also remove the "view outfit" feature.
I also think the "View Outfit" feature in Warband should be taken out for everyone. I have to admit I love using it, I use it constantly to watch my back. But it's a really lame feature since you never know if that guy you're behind actually sees you or is he oblivious to my presence?
Add mobile necks to this shitty game then.
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Add mobile necks to this shitty game then.
....or you know do what you do in every freaking third person or first person action game you've ever played. TURN YOUR CHARACTER AROUND TO SEE WHAT'S BEHIND YOU! Seriously what makes this game so special?
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As a shielder none of this matters. This is only a problem because everyone plays 2h / pole. Just need one class to counter the strat of another class. No big deal.
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At last someone startet Nerf ranged topic with nerfing x-bows ideas.
And pls kepp this thread focused what to do with x-bows, for archers nerf you have a topic here: http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/how-to-nerf-archery-without-destroying-it/
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Hybrids are versatile, as they should be. Playing any pure class presents you with a pure counter, as it should. My 2014 notion that i've decided to spam everywhere is that infantry should become more willing to sink 3 skill points and 50 wpf into throwing and grab javelins. If even 60% of heroes did that then if ranged or HAs or bump-cav infest a server people can all bring their javs next round and rape them.
With an increase in high-level builds i dont see why more people don't do this tiny investment, sure it might mean at worst 1 less PS, Ath or WM, but what you gain is versatility and the ability to counter the classes you hate the most. This game has these build options you can use to counter the other builds, who's to blame if people are still determined to sink every point into athletics and Powerstrike without any variety?
I want more infantry to grab *some* throwing, that's my 2014 crpg goal. If successful then imagine the 'fun battles' next Strat if everyone can use throwing! If ranged infuriate you cos they have some melee, grab a tiny bit of ranged and stop being a sitting duck, you'll never be kited again, and throwing is brutal against reloading xbows. And it isnt like that amount of investment will negatively impact most melee-orientated builds anyway, just make them more useful in different situations. And if you care about RP, just imagine what kind of medieval warrior *wouldnt* be able to throw a basic javelin - laughingstock.
I support you in this. I've been personally trying to do that for a very long time with little to no success. I wish you luck.
Edit: Also, for Jarold and Pinche, the ~ lets you have 360 degree vision without turning your character. Very useful.
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Hybrids are versatile, as they should be. Playing any pure class presents you with a pure counter, as it should. My 2014 notion that i've decided to spam everywhere is that infantry should become more willing to sink 3 skill points and 50 wpf into throwing and grab javelins. If even 60% of heroes did that then if ranged or HAs or bump-cav infest a server people can all bring their javs next round and rape them.
Same answer
Having some throwing skill is handy when there are throwing weapons lying around, but the weapons themselves are much too heavy and costly to take with you if you aren't sure you will use them every single life.
Also, I doubt people would be all happy at all if 60% of the "melee" players had javelins. Those javelins would be primarily used against melee characters.
With an increase in high-level builds i dont see why more people don't do this tiny investment, sure it might mean at worst 1 less PS, Ath or WM, but what you gain is versatility and the ability to counter the classes you hate the most. This game has these build options you can use to counter the other builds, who's to blame if people are still determined to sink every point into athletics and Powerstrike without any variety?
First, throwing is not even remotely as useful to counter archers and xbows as are xbows and archers themselves. Second, it doesn't prevent you from getting shot. Third, it only adds maybe a dozen meters to your effective range compared to a melee weapon. And with 3PT the damage is going to be ridiculous even against low armor archers.
I want more infantry to grab *some* throwing, that's my 2014 crpg goal. If successful then imagine the 'fun battles' next Strat if everyone can use throwing! If ranged infuriate you cos they have some melee, grab a tiny bit of ranged and stop being a sitting duck, you'll never be kited again, and throwing is brutal against reloading xbows. And it isnt like that amount of investment will negatively impact most melee-orientated builds anyway, just make them more useful in different situations. And if you care about RP, just imagine what kind of medieval warrior *wouldnt* be able to throw a basic javelin - laughingstock.
Ranged that fight in melee don't infuriate me, it's those that don't fight in melee that infuriate me. A throwing weapon will not kill them and it will not magically teleport them to me either (rather the opposite as you can't sprint and throw at the same time). The funny thing is that unless you get the drop on them, in which case you might as well just use your melee weapon, archers and xbowers will kill you easier than you can kill them with your throwing weapons, even at ranges like 8 meters.
And if you doubt what I'm saying, trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I've been playing a 1h/shield/throwing hybrid (1h hammer, shield, two stacks of throwing weapons) with 6PT as my main for several months. Even in siege with ammo not being a real problem, it's just not worth it.
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Edit: Also, for Jarold and Pinche, the ~ lets you have 360 degree vision without turning your character. Very useful.
I know and I want it removed because it's a dumb mechanic, but I use it all the time lol. Thanks though.
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*edit* My general point is, the game already has provision for dealing with those annoying classes, if you want to just run at them and try and power through (like i do, Str-whore style, watch me fail playing this game some time) then do it, if you think you can dodge and strafe forever then do it, if that doesn't work for you grab a shield, if that doesnt work cos archers get you from behind or team up on you (which tbh should kill you whatever class does this to you) then try adding throwing or throwing/shielder to your arsenal - if not for permanent use then for 'special occasions' when it seems you cant move for massed ranged nests.
Having played native i still have absolutely zero issue with ranged in this mod, there are fewer of them and the average armour/number of shots it takes to kill is higher. When i get headshot with my 0athletics shieldless character, i dont enjoy it, but... it's something you accept is going to happen a lot when you choose this class and build. Every class has a counter, hybridising even a little reduces your hard counters immeasurably.
The game has far more provision for dealing with basically anything that doesn't use a crossbow or a bow than for dealing with anything that has one. The first being skill. Cav is pretty much useless as soon as there are weak slopes on the ground and can generally not deal with anything aware of its presence. Shieldless infantry gets shot hopelessly, and shielders are outgunned in melee. Shielders should effectively counter ranged but they don't, rather the opposite. Isn't it troubling that you suggest taking throwing weapons "to deal with your counter" even though I should be the one countering ranged? Following your logic, my hard counters are heavy weapons and axes so I should seek defense against that. Guess what, I really don't have any problem dealing with basically anything one can throw at me in melee. When I fail in melee it's clearly my fault. Weapons that can blockstun me are harder but in no way impossible to fight.
For any melee class, the best way to deal with ranged is not to deal with them, as none have adequate tools to kill them. As shielder, what is standing outside of cover going to acheive ? That right, nothing. Your shield is so small it won't even help people directly behind you. Going forward under crossfire is only going to get you killed.
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Even when playing around with the idea in my head as a joke, slipstreaming/drafting against kiters doesn't sound too bad haha.
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I think Kafein knows all this. It's just his duty as a lobbyist to make cav/shielder appear as weak as possible while blowing up ranged effectiveness to epic proportions in his tales. Like a lawyer defending a murderer with all his skill although he knows that he is guilty, he does it because it his job.
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I think Kafein knows all this. It's just his duty as a lobbyist to make cav/shielder appear as weak as possible while blowing up ranged effectiveness to epic proportions in his tales. Like a lawyer defending a murderer with all his skill although he knows that he is guilty, he does it because it his job.
Way to ignore everything I say. What about I say you can't handle people that tell you your game is not flawless and therefore shouldn't be listened to?
I just don't make points about why ranged is fine get a shield lol and use tactics because other people already do it, and I feel fixing issues in favor of ranged would not improve the game as much as fixing issues that are right now giving them an advantage. Do I say ranged does too much damage ? No. Do I say their COF is too tight ? No. Do I say it is too difficult to kill a cornered archer or xbow guy ? No. Somehow I'm the most biaised lobbyist yet I only argue very specific stuff about ranged classes and their "counters".
You sure you aren't downplaying the effectiveness of shields just a bit? I mean what gametype are we talking about here? On siege ranged can be annoying as hell, but any group of shielders will be laughing all the way to the flag as the ranged just hunt kills and lose multi. And that's for ranged defense, we know how useless they are in attack.
If shields counter range in that scenario, when do ranged guys die? Also the shielders won't laugh when suddenly they will have to defend themselves in melee around the flag while being shot at. Do shielders have any more protection against projectiles than other melee classes when in combat? Not really. Catching an arrow with an inactive shield is extremely rare, and interrupts you nonetheless.
For battle i find cav and shielders eat ranged alive, unless there are major slopes to negate cav but then the shielders are still effective - unless surrounded by kiting ranged. Well... i know no heroes want to hear this, but it doesnt matter what class you are or what class they are, typically if you get surrounded 1 vs many you will die (unless they all suck).
That's simply not true. If I try to kill two archers as shielder and they are not moronic I will systematically die. If I try to kill two 2h heroes, I have my chances, moronic enemies or not.
I certainly found my shielder gens far easier than any other (5 shield skill), and other than strat sieges i barely gave ranged any notice since they never really troubled me (I also became hugely inactive because i find shielder playstyle so boring, but that's just me and nothing to do with ranged). Cav can kill ranged in flat maps, shielders 1 on 1 are a match for any ranged unless they fall for a point-blank shot as they lower their shield, the ranged will never have as-good stats as the shielder in melee, if they win then it's directional blocking and skill. Ranged kiting is a shitty playstyle, i agree, but the way to counter it is the way to counter any class that just runs away and delays - cav, teamwork and ranged. If it is true that shields offer no defense against ranged, that is not something i have experienced.
Sure, a shield provides adequate defense against ranged as long as you are not getting crossfired. But when it comes to actually helping your team and eliminate ranged enemies, a shield is far from being enough.
I often hear it said that the issue with ranged is the number of them, not the individual stats, well we still have far fewer ranged than native, crpg is still a 2hand heroes dream compared to native, and if we're considering balance on the grounds that a single infantryman has no sure counter to fighting 3 ranged at once i really don't see the validity. There is no gameplay counter to fighting multiple of any class who team up on you, situations like that come down to 'skill', no small amount of luck, and the multiple opponents being idiots - this applies for ranged aswell. I'm sure you've killed plenty of ranged as an infantryman, we forget those occasions the moment we do it - we kill a ranged, move onto the next target or dodge more ranged, not even a passing thought - but of course the far more memorable occasions will be when they kill you and cause you to rage for the next few minutes as you spectate them hoping to see another melee come punish them. Memory is biased like that.
This is where you are incorrect. Fighting a melee 1v3 comes down to builds, equipment, skill and luck, but mostly skill. "Fighting" a 1v3 against archers (and even worse against xbows) comes down to luck, movement speed and armor, mostly luck. Yeah sure some ninja guys evade one or two arrows on occasion, but dodging "skill" doesn't go much further than that. I don't even need any special equipment to win a melee 1v3. Give me something that can block and does reasonable damage and I'll be happy.
You always have a decent k/d when i see you, far from being helpless i think, what you describe about having to hide from ranged and having no way to fight them seems far removed from the reality of your actions in EU1 and EU2, if you're not careful i'll sneak on with an alt and spectate you, taking sexy screens of you killing ranged :P It's easy to feed off each other's hype on forums and build it up until ranged sound like unbeatable gods supported by biased game mechanics, who can outrun every specialised melee class, ignore all shields (which are 'tiny' apparently, grab a bigger one!) and have unsurpassable skill in melee aswell. Logically we know that isn't the case, when we actually play the game and join EU1 or EU2 and start playing we see that isn't the case, but on forums suddenly shields are made of tissue paper and every single archer and xbower are as good as the best you've ever had the misfortune to fight, there are still very few *really good* ranged, they're just the memorable - and annoying - ones, and when we post on forums we imagine every ranged is as good as those annoying few, because memory is biased like that.
Actually, if I was really struggling with the game people would avoid addressing my points by telling me to L2P. Now they avoid addressing my points by telling me I'm a lobbyist instead. It seems there's always a good reason not to listen.
About shields specifically, the reason I have been again (this isn't new) complaining about shield coverage is because I have been using shields again in a vain attempt to make ranged characters quit EU2, and therefore found myself precisly in those situations I'm describing, like two shielders vs two archers, or getting shot through my shield. This is not theorycrafting. Those things are also the reason stopped trying to act as a ranged counter with equipment that obviously does not let you be that. The best use of shields in siege is in melee, pushing up ladders. When it comes to ranged, the most sensible thing to do is to keep hiding.
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This is nerf xbows topic, right?
Well, dunno is archery supposed to be counter to xbows but as an archer I sure don't feel like one. Maybe it's the other way, who knows. I think that reload speed on xbows is too fast. There were attempts to make it longer but every time it was reverted after like a day or so. Just like that mirror bump mechanics horses had.
Has anyone ever compared Hunting Crossbow with Longbow? Reload, damage, accuracy? Just don't forget to take damage bonus from let's say 7 PD.
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Has anyone ever compared Hunting Crossbow with Longbow?
Yes, hunting xbow is trash while longbow is a great weapon.
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Its a bit depending on the map. Sometimes melee shine, sometimes cav and sometimes ranged. Even if i wouldnt mind some nerf to xbows (i use it myself so no lobbying here) i would rather see pierce damage getting tuned down a bit.
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It's a hard counter because ranged utterly fail at their objective in the server, and if they want to actually attempt to aid their team in that scenario (all their melee being dead) they have to jump down to flag and die (which they do if they move). The number of times i've seen Fenris do this to a ranged-heavy defense is unreal, a small squad of shielders get in, flag goes down, melee are outnumbered cos of ineffectual ranged. If ranged were so good against shielders i'd keep my multi against Kinngrimm 'n' crew more often :P -oh, and i frequently get passive blocks against ranged, cos i'm a lucky beast, if you arent so lucky it helps to keep your shield up, good spatial awareness lets you block ranged even whilst in melee.
(also a further nerf to range would make them even more useless on siege attack where they're already pretty much a wasted slot on your team, their usefulness is highly situational)
The power of ranged is dishing out damage without exposing themselves. It's true they aren't really powerful when it comes to winning a siege round on many EU maps, but it's entirely different if we look at battle.
In a melee 1v3 even with luck your only chance is for them not to be 3 good players (and i dont mean good duelists, it's a different skillset), you can only win if they teamhit, fall for obvious target switching, or they're too afraid that you'll switch so don't attack allowing you to block the few hits they attempt and fight basically 1 on 1. If everyone in the 3 expected the target switching, had spatial awareness and was suitably aggressive the 1 in the 1v3 would systematically die too. And hell, i've charged down archer nests of 3 or more with a board shield before, with a pitiful 3 athletics. When a group of archers kite and crossfire you they are operating exactly as a group of competent melee gankers do, a very different experience from fighting your typical uncoordinated random 3 archers (or meleers) of varying skill and level.
I don't agree. Even 3 topscorers can lose against one melee, it's just about making the right calls at the right moment, and people seldom play at 100% of their potential anyway. A 1v3 at range against ranged will make you very dead regardless of your or the opponents skill. Kiting and crossfiring is not comparable with melee ganking as the risk of teamhitting is basically absent as well as the danger of being attacked yourself when your target is chasing some other guy. It is my understanding that surviving ganks tends to be easier with more agi-oriented characters so our experiences probably differ.
Yes ranged die less often, cos they stay away from the melee, but they also get fewer kills, negligible score and valor, and frequently fail to make their mark on the battlefield or actively assist their team in it's goal - all the glory of a support class that is only effective in numbers or when used by the handful of very skilled ranged out there. The secret recipe for killing ranged is what it always has been since native, either get behind them or cav, throw, run at them with a shield, teamplay or hope you have more/better ranged on your team. A '3 ranged vs 1 melee' description is no grounds to base balance on, in a fair test and comparison what are the other 2 melee doing? Coming at them from the side or behind or shield-rushing one each, you might die but your efforts could mean all 3 ranged die from focussing on you alone. Also if it isn't 3 *infantry* no cav would be able to resist if they saw 3 archers shooting one shielder, they'd come for easy kills from behind vs the ranged, infantry would flank, throwers would throw. That's the reality on the servers unless you've ran off on your own or let your whole team die.
As a shielder or any 1hander i dont stand much chance against 3 competent (or incompetent) maulers at the top of a ladder either, it isn't a fair situation to petition balance on.
At least I can just try to access the castle some other way without those three maulers being able to hit me anywhere on the map. I can just wait to get support from people with longer weapons, because I know those guys are actually effective against maulers. At the very least they will make the maulers move and let me slip past, at which point I can deal with the maulers alone.
Archers and xbows are definitely low risk classes if played to their strengths (full ranged wpf, nomad/tatar/horn bow if archer, 0 slot sidearm for blocking, 24 or more agi). Your most dangerous enemy is going to be other archers and xbows, so it's only logical the archer and xbow population just keeps increasing.
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This is nerf xbows topic, right?
Well, dunno is archery supposed to be counter to xbows but as an archer I sure don't feel like one. Maybe it's the other way, who knows. I think that reload speed on xbows is too fast. There were attempts to make it longer but every time it was reverted after like a day or so. Just like that mirror bump mechanics horses had.
Has anyone ever compared Hunting Crossbow with Longbow? Reload, damage, accuracy? Just don't forget to take damage bonus from let's say 7 PD.
I recently borrowed a MW Hunting Crossbow, actually. If you're comparing them solely by their ranged capabilities, the Longbow is much, much better. If you're considering the actual effectiveness of all possible builds using either weapon, I'd say things are much more balanced than they'd initially seem.
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There's one thing that interests me. Does bolts break often as arrows? I know arrows used to break quite often, much more than bows.
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bows and bolts dmg chance is same I think, but it's more noticable for archers, because most of them are using 2 quivers instead of 1 bag of bolts.
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Kafein, your posts are getting way too long to quote and respond, but here are some tidbits:
Ranged die from shielders when the shielders go get them or, you know, when the ranged on your team kills them while you protect them from melee.
Again, you are bringing up 1 vs 2 or 3 and complaining that you die.
No, you won't take on 2 non-moronic 2 handers and win, you will die.
I've said before (and again) that shields should be made more effective against solo ranged. Certainly shots to the knee or foot shouldn't be possible. Head shots are about elevation. But please, stop complaining about trying to kill more than 1 archer with your shield. You should not be able to take any 2 players solo given equal skill regardless of class.
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Kafein, your posts are getting way too long to quote and respond, but here are some tidbits:
Ranged die from shielders when the shielders go get them or, you know, when the ranged on your team kills them while you protect them from melee.
Again, you are bringing up 1 vs 2 or 3 and complaining that you die.
No, you won't take on 2 non-moronic 2 handers and win, you will die.
I've said before (and again) that shields should be made more effective against solo ranged. Certainly shots to the knee or foot shouldn't be possible. Head shots are about elevation. But please, stop complaining about trying to kill more than 1 archer with your shield. You should not be able to take any 2 players solo given equal skill regardless of class.
In that case it's obviously time to buff melee ganking. A lot.
But yeah I think I will try to stop writing books about this for now. This came up mainly because I grabbed my shield again, focusing on ranged kills and finding out again how miserable that playstyle really is. But don't worry I learned my lesson. Archers and xbows have plenty of very powerful counters so it's the fault of the players for not "dealing with it with use a teamwork lol and get shield tactics". Nobody ever actually plays those powerful counter classes in a way that actually acheives that, but that's because melee players are dumb and don't use teamwork and tactics, totally not because playing ranged counter get a shield use tactics lol will get them killed. So I'm just going to avoid ranged altogether, enjoying some cRPG between the moments I'm being forcefully removed from the game by exterior forces.
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But yeah I think I will try to stop writing books about this for now. This came up mainly because I grabbed my shield again, focusing on ranged kills and finding out again how miserable that playstyle really is. But don't worry I learned my lesson. Archers and xbows have plenty of very powerful counters so it's the fault of the players for not "dealing with it with use a teamwork lol and get shield tactics". Nobody ever actually plays those powerful counter classes in a way that actually acheives that, but that's because melee players are dumb and don't use teamwork and tactics, totally not because playing ranged counter get a shield use tactics lol will get them killed. So I'm just going to avoid ranged altogether, enjoying some cRPG between the moments I'm being forcefully removed from the game by exterior forces.
That's because a public server and a competitive/strat battle server are completely different. You have to guide players in a public server, which is exactly why MotF is going to have a larger role in battle in the future(although we're not exactly trying to turn battle into CTF mode). In battle, the only thing that matters, is kills. Because of this, without any objective, anything that doesn't have the maneuverability of cavalry or ranged abilities, is mere fodder.
...infantry has no role but to kill other infantry
Battle is simply flawed by design, there's no getting around that. It's my favorite game mode, but it's flawed nonetheless.
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Let me take this one from your book Kafein. Yes, if you want to ignore the numerous buffs and changes I've suggested to the various classes involved over the past year, then sure, I'm telling you to just suck it up and die like a man. Just because your complaints themselves are exaggerated to the point of ludicrousness, doesn't mean that a different balance between melee and ranged shouldn't be achieved.
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Let me take this one from your book Kafein. Yes, if you want to ignore the numerous buffs and changes I've suggested to the various classes involved over the past year, then sure, I'm telling you to just suck it up and die like a man. Just because your complaints themselves are exaggerated to the point of ludicrousness, doesn't mean that a different balance between melee and ranged shouldn't be achieved.
Don't take my last post personally. I think you made a couple of fair suggestions and I appreciate the fact that you are not just trying to argue the statu quo.
That's because a public server and a competitive/strat battle server are completely different. You have to guide players in a public server, which is exactly why MotF is going to have a larger role in battle in the future(although we're not exactly trying to turn battle into CTF mode). In battle, the only thing that matters, is kills. Because of this, without any objective, anything that doesn't have the maneuverability of cavalry or ranged abilities, is mere fodder.
Battle is simply flawed by design, there's no getting around that. It's my favorite game mode, but it's flawed nonetheless.
Well yeah. Assuming that melee classes are not supposed to counter ranged but rather win the round trying to avoid ranged and minimize their effects, then the only problem is battle mode. But I've been hearing "get a shield lol" too much lately.
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Don't take my last post personally. I think you made a couple of fair suggestions and I appreciate the fact that you are not just trying to argue the statu quo.
Well yeah. Assuming that melee classes are not supposed to counter ranged but rather win the round trying to avoid ranged and minimize their effects, then the only problem is battle mode. But I've been hearing "get a shield lol" too much lately.
Right. It wasn't targeted at you, at least not solely. I'm trying to change the conversation because the one you guys are having(in both of the anti-ranged threads atm) is pointless. We're not going to nerf ranged into the ground so that melee and cav becomes the only enjoyable play style. Ranged may get some nerfs, but it won't be anything major, and I don't think we're going to go back to when the longbow and rus bow were the easiest bows to use, while also having the most damage.
Instead, I'd like to hear what people think about having MotF(Master of the Field) spawning at the start of every round, at 6 minutes, or when 2/3 of a team has died. And for the sake of the conversation, assume balanced flag locations.
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Right. It wasn't targeted at you, at least not solely. I'm trying to change the conversation because the one you guys are having(in both of the anti-ranged threads atm) is pointless. We're not going to nerf ranged into the ground so that melee and cav becomes the only enjoyable play style. Ranged may get some nerfs, but it won't be anything major, and I don't think we're going to go back to when the longbow and rus bow were the easiest bows to use, while also having the most damage.
Instead, I'd like to hear what people think about having MotF(Master of the Field) spawning at the start of every round, at 6 minutes, or when 2/3 of a team has died. And for the sake of the conversation, assume balanced flag locations.
That's easy IMO. Always spawn it at the start of the round. If you want to further improve on that, increase the radius and more importantly slow down capture speed.
If you want something a little bit softer, maybe make them visible from the start of the round but not actually active until some time has passed. Not sure that is technically possible though.
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Instead, I'd like to hear what people think about having MotF(Master of the Field) spawning at the start of every round, at 6 minutes, or when 2/3 of a team has died. And for the sake of the conversation, assume balanced flag locations.
I don't often play battle, but when I do freaking hate that MotF spawning first round of every map. If you make it every round, then you'll completely remove enjoyment factor out of battle.
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I don't like shields, sometimes their magic force field (especially while mounted) are catching most of arrows IMO should hit player. Especially 0 slot shields have hillarious force field.
I almost forgot that it's nerf ranged post :D
All I know is archery on foot (i never blamed my soul plaing HA or HX more than 20 minutes), and i already suggested in other topic what to do with it.
X-bows are different than bows (playstyle, melee ability, dmg per hit, fire ratio, penalties to wpf...)
All i would like to change in x-bows are:
1) Making unable to penetrate shields
2.1) Increase STR req for using them (easy way) OR...
2.2) Add skill comparable to PD for bows and remake x-bows dmg (hard way, lots of ballance fails, as always)
3) Cap time of aiming with x-bow without loosing accuracy (5 or maybe more seconds, depended on how heavy x-bow you are using)
4) Give higher penalties to moving speed and accuracy while aiming (archers have it)
I'm ready for lots of rage on me, but i don't care, those are MY opinions and lots of ppl won't agree with me.
I can already said to point no 1:
I know that x-bows were so powerfull irl that they were penertating shields and hitting shielders, but sorry, it's a game... :wink:
modify:
Tydeus can you tell me what you think about suggestions i med in here http://forum.melee.org/game-balance-discussion/how-to-nerf-archery-without-destroying-it/ ?
You wrote something there but not about any other ideas than MOTF, I'm curious what you think about them and about ones i posted in here. :)
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I don't often play battle, but when I do freaking hate that MotF spawning first round of every map. If you make it every round, then you'll completely remove enjoyment factor out of battle.
New functionality of MotF will cause it to spawn every single round, it's just a matter of when, and whether or not it's even necessary to use it. As it stands, after the next patch flags will drop any time after 30 seconds into the round that a team has fewer than 6 players left alive.
That's easy IMO. Always spawn it at the start of the round. If you want to further improve on that, increase the radius and more importantly slow down capture speed.
If you want something a little bit softer, maybe make them visible from the start of the round but not actually active until some time has passed. Not sure that is technically possible though.
I suggested changing the radius and capture speed when we first started considering this in IRC. We could do (your) latter suggestion easily if each map only had one flag location, but that takes out an interesting dynamic the system has.
Regardless, I have said it before and I've seen lots of other people state it. On the first round after a map change when MotF spawns in a balanced location, those are some of the most enjoyable rounds I have played in a very long time. This is true regardless of what class I play. As ranged, shooting targets is much easier as they're mostly in one spot. As melee, ranged don't affect the total outcome of the round nearly as much as the otherwise would. As cav, due to everyone basically being in the same spot, it's much easier to skirt around the edges picking players off.
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Do you enjoy battle with MotF, Tydeus?
I don't like shields, sometimes their magic force field (especially while mounted) are catching most of arrows IMO should hit player. Especially 0 slot shields have hillarious force field.
It's so funny when you're able to shoot at dudes with big shields but you can't hit player using buckler...
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Another nerf ranged post?
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I have a pure xbow build. 170 + 110 in one handed. (13/27)
- It's expensive.
- I am the king of glances.
- I wear light armor.
- Rain fuck me everyday.
- In a melee cluster you are cannon fodder.
- I can't oneshot archers with a full set of heavy xbow (+3) and (+3) steel bolts. Sometimes, even peasants survive to a chest shot.
- Reload time is so slow.
- Being xbowman don't magically converts you in DaveUKR, as being a 2hander do not convert you magically into a Phyrex.
- Xbow population is minimal. For each 4/5 archers you see one xbowman, at least in EU.
Do you want to nerf hybrids? I agree. Nerf unskilled (wpf) players using xbow with accuracy? Of course. But don't fuck us more than we are because the last thing that unbalance this game are the fewer xbowers remaining in servers.
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Do you enjoy battle with MotF, Tydeus?
If they're in a balanced location, then generally speaking, yes. I don't think they should end the round quite as fast as they currently do, but that shouldn't be hard to change.
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Xbow population is minimal.
:lol:
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:lol:
2h my old friend lobbyist since crpg alpha. Devs have the stadistics or they have the way to show us the real percentage of xbow users. I am used to your whinings and nowadays everyone know who is who in QQ nerf that item because it kill me.
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If they're in a balanced location, then generally speaking, yes. I don't think they should end the round quite as fast as they currently do, but that shouldn't be hard to change.
I think it should pop 1 minute into the round (right after spawning is closed). There should be at least 3 balanced spots that it can pop up from randomly. I think that would...
1: Let everyone on a team spawn before the rush.
2: Keep people from knowing exactly where it will spawn, thus negating #1.
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If flags spawn too fast the scope for tactical movement through the map will diminish. The maps will play out the same way each time. I'd like it to stay free form, nonlinear and open to changes of tactics. I like the freeform style we have now, were you have two teams trying to think of how best to win without being forced into one area of the map being a huge clusterfuck. I only really want flags to spawn on the first round in order to force the team balance to come into effect sooner, and to force the hand of the last few guys when the round is dragging
This doesn't have much to do with Nerf Ranged though. Regardless xbow builds especially are BS, and the fact that countering ranged with ranged is the norm should have been looked at months ago
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If flags spawn too fast the scope for tactical movement through the map will diminish. The maps will play out the same way each time. I'd like it to stay free form, nonlinear and open to changes of tactics. I like the freeform style we have now, were you have two teams trying to think of how best to win without being forced into one area of the map being a huge clusterfuck. I only really want flags to spawn on the first round in order to force the team balance to come into effect sooner, and to force the hand of the last few guys when the round is dragging
This doesn't have much to do with Nerf Ranged though. Regardless xbow builds especially are BS, and the fact that countering ranged with ranged is the norm should have been looked at months ago
That's the point of having 3 different, yet equally balanced flag locations. So that you can't just run to the same spot every round using the same tactic. Overall, I agree with the worry you have, it's just that I think your concerns can be fairly easily addressed. If we make it take longer to cap the flag for example, we leave more room for tactics. If we greatly increase the distance required to raise a flag, we can allow the clusterfuck to spread out(especially with intelligent use of scene props).
You say it doesn't have much to do with nerfing ranged, but it is actually a direct nerf to them. It doesn't nerf their individual abilities, it nerfs their overall effectiveness or more accurately, their influence on the round. Ranged players aren't good at holding a position, infantry is. It's a solution to the problem that for once, doesn't affect player builds or items.
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I can always stay near the flag and block with my pickaxe or whatever :D
Problem with ranged is mentality issue. I've never seen it on NA1, every time I was pleasantly surprised with your archers (except Fallen archers who have same style both on NA and EU servers). But on EU we have cowardly archers like Shokoshugi, Timour and others who will never come close to help their teammates.
I'm siege archer, with 2 ATH, 24 kg of gear on my back and just 1 PS. But I'm often near the flag, helping teammates to either conquer it or defend it. Have 2/18 scores every round. But I'm more useful than any of those sharpshooters with 20/2 scores. How is that possible? That's because they are pussies as I said, they will never come close to the flag. They also will back off if you shoot them unless they are Druzhina (they never play alone, always come in archer packs). Means that just one hit in the body of very accurate EU archer is enough to scare him and force him to change his position, while my team defended/capped the flag and won the round.
You can try to fix this by forcing certain playstyle but you'll never truly fix it. Most long-term archers on EU come from a far and have high ping. They will never play melee with less than 70 body armor and 10 PS. That is why they are shooting.
What you are suggesting is similar to siege on open plains, most people dislike it.
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Damn Shokoschugi called me a leecher, guess he wanted to be friendly. Regardless, i called him a my old friend in russian :mrgreen:
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Damn Shokoschugi called me a leecher, guess he wanted to be friendly. Regardless, i called him a my old friend in russian :mrgreen:
Cool, but isn't he Hungarian? :P
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You might consider placing some cover in these zones, as I do not carry a shield and am a terrible dancer.
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So when you play Siege as an archer you actually play gimped melee and expect others to do the same. Meh.
I agree that the on Siege archers aren't that useful, but that's a problem with the game mode, not the class. One can not expect archers to fight with a sword and they shouldn't be forced to do that.
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I can always stay near the flag and block with my pickaxe or whatever :D
Problem with ranged is mentality issue. I've never seen it on NA1, every time I was pleasantly surprised with your archers (except Fallen archers who have same style both on NA and EU servers). But on EU we have cowardly archers like Shokoshugi, Timour and others who will never come close to help their teammates.
I'm siege archer, with 2 ATH, 24 kg of gear on my back and just 1 PS. But I'm often near the flag, helping teammates to either conquer it or defend it. Have 2/18 scores every round. But I'm more useful than any of those sharpshooters with 20/2 scores. How is that possible? That's because they are pussies as I said, they will never come close to the flag. They also will back off if you shoot them unless they are Druzhina (they never play alone, always come in archer packs). Means that just one hit in the body of very accurate EU archer is enough to scare him and force him to change his position, while my team defended/capped the flag and won the round.
You can try to fix this by forcing certain playstyle but you'll never truly fix it. Most long-term archers on EU come from a far and have high ping. They will never play melee with less than 70 body armor and 10 PS. That is why they are shooting.
What you are suggesting is similar to siege on open plains, most people dislike it.
What do you expect? To enter in a fight with a pickaxe? Do you know why archers wear light equipment? Maybe for insane arrow weight? Ranged adapt as melee do. Pure ranged builds avoid melee because it are not their strenght. I don't see a full tincan shooting with a bow and 0 pd, so don't expect a 0ps ranged to come into a melee. I see it reasonable. You can like it or not but it's a natural behaviour.
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Do you know why archers wear light equipment? Maybe for insane arrow weight?
No, if i could use hi weight armor without loss ow wpf i'll run around in plate :D
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Whats the point in a 0 PS archer fighting that 7 PS melee guy? the archer is going to loose 99% of the time so why bother? After all, all the archer would be doing is playing to the melee guys strength, yet when an archer plays to their strength you all whine and bitch about it.
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In battle mode it is pointless most of the time. But in siege, if you're near the flag blocking you're helping more than sniping players from distance. No matter how accurate you are and how fast you reload, you can't stop pack of enemy players ready to cap the flag.
I'm pleasantly surprised what I'm able to pull off with 2 ATH (feels like no ath because arrows weight a ton), 71 wpf in 1h, hatchet and just one PS. Soon I'll have 4 PS, and then I won't be so harmless anymore. Final build will have 7 ATH and 7 PS and that's completely different story.